Matt, sounds awesome. I'm sick of the snow. Just a pain, lol. I'll call you later if I have some time as I've upgraded a ton and I think I'm about to do it again. lol....it's YOUR fault Matt ;)
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
Any other North Easterners loving this relentless snow as little as I am!?!? And, believe it or not, I'm still not up and running. My fuses finally came in but I haven't had time to install them. And the final piece of the puzzle is arriving tomorrow, snow willing. My new XLR 8.5 meter Shunyata ZiTron Anaconda S interconnects are due to arrive tomorrow. I'll pop the fuses in when I hook up the cables and music will finally flow. I also have to install the last of the acoustic treatments. The room should be nice and flat while not being dead. I used a gentle combination of absorption with ample diffusion to open the room up but absorb excess base. I'll report here and on my virtual system. |
That will be an interesting piece. I think that streaming is the wave of the future personally. I think that we will all have nice streaming devices in hi rez and a great DAC. Guys, I've tried to find the firewire Maxtor server grade hard drives, but can't figure out which one to get. I understand that Seagate now owns them, but there are multiple types on their site. Which one is server grade? Also, aren't they the ones with a great disc drive? Can't see that one either. I am ready today to get the disk drive (Steve said it has to have the sampling deal from the internet built into it) and the hard drive to start ripping my CD's...thanks all. |
Heads up on the "JMF Audio DMT3.7 Universal Transport" under development. The JMF Audio front-end (the DMT3.7 transport and the DXC2.2 MKII converter) is the only source in the world capable of playing all types of discs and converting any audio to 705/768kHz! Some of the features are: JMF Audio optical mechanism and disc handling. JMF Audio signal processing and clocking, common to all sources. Independant power supplies for disc drive, audio and video Two modes of operation: pure audio and audio/video. Outputs audio stereo SPDIF and AES-EBU 192kHz. Outputs audio multichannel over HDMI in PCM and DSD; Outputs video over HDMI, full HD, upscaling to 4k. Easy control with the JMF Audio MBR1 remote. Advanced control with tablet/smartphone/computer. Audio discs: CD, SACD, HDCD, DVD-Audio, Bluray Pure-Audio Audio/video discs: DVD, Bluray Files: WAV, FLAC, AAC, DSD... Decoding: Dolby True HD, DTS Master Audio... Streaming: DLNA |
Steve walked me through set up last week on mine and using Ayre gear you can tell if something isn't quiet. I have the volume control on, but I don't use it and I hear NOTHING from the tweeter when I'm not playing anything. Not sure if that's what you guys are talking about, but the noise floor is very very low and it helps with the overall sound. I accidentally let the system on last night and went up this morning to turn it off. I put on a few cuts and DAMN did it sound sweet. I can tell it's starting to burn in as the stage is bigger. Instruments are no where near the speaker (the sound is wall to wall). The bass is tightening up and so tuneful. I didn't expect this and it's not fully burned in yet. The Vandy's have never sounded so nice to me. Me needs to upgrade now, lol.... |
Audiol - it has the same volume control. It has internal jumpers if you need zero volume to be more quiet. I think mute is a better choice if you need it dead quiet. This is a part of the volume technology. it does not go to zero unless you mute. I have used the ODSE for many years and never needed zero on the volume. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Have to share...I have the OSDE now. It's got all the updates I assume. I have a Synchro mesh and the mac mini server with the Paul Haynes power supply. I have Steves usb cable (waiting on the short block) and a BNC cable he made for connecting the supply to the mac. I use AQ Niagara balanced into the Ayre AX7e, Vandersteen Treo with AQ Castle Rock.cables. I also use a Basis TT with Benz cart and Heed phono, so I have analog as a reference in my system. The OSDE needs to still break in a bit, but WOW.....Now I hear what the fuss is about. I've heard most of the big name DACS now and there are some major disconnects for me with most of them. I know I like something when I relax and just listen. I can't do that with digital most of the time. On rare occasions I've been able to. I'm really loving what I"m hearing in my system right now and I know it will get better. I can't wait to hear it once it's all broken in. Hopefully I can get the Vandy Treo CT's soon too as that will help. |
Audioengr, Are you saying the ODSX Diamond has the same volume control as the ODSE?, If I recall, matt had problems with the volume control not doing no sound at all when turned all the way down, matt, Am I correct on remembering this?, Steve, this is why I asked if the volume control would be better? |
"I'm assuming the OR6 tech is integrated into the ODSX Diamond. Are you considering using the Dynamo supply and power block usb supply for the ODSX as well?" Yes, that is the plan. The Dynamo is not needed, but the Power Block improves things. "If we use the TotalDac usb cable, is it necessary/compatible to use the Short Block with it?" No, it works alone. Turns out that other cables work fine afterall. Its something that I am doing.... "How goes ODSX progress?" I have one breaking in on the bench with Jupiter caps. IT will take a few weeks to break in completely. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
For those reading this thread, the OR6 that Truaudiofile has is a prototype. He is using it with a Dynamo supply and a Power Block USB supply. Evidently the Hi-Res problems that I had with it are not being experienced by him. He is using a TotalDAC USB cable and I think that is the difference. None of my usual USB cables seem to work well at 176 and 192. I think I need to improve the USB receiver robustness before OR6 is ready for prime-time. I cannot expect every customer to use a TotalDAC cable.... Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve - Thanks so much for sending me the Off-Ramp 6 for auditioning. I did not believe the OR5 could be bested in any way, however I was wrong! This new generation or Off Ramp does a fantastic job with all sample rates of PCM as well as for the first time DSD. I am running out of the unit I2S via HDMI and the soundstage is so big and 3D its truly the "Best" representation of digital I have ever experienced in my system or anywhere else. It truly reminds me of my old Analog rig in every sense. Congratulations on a job well done!! Bravo to Empirical Audio for another great sounding product! Best Regards, Trueaudiofile . |
Thanks for sharing. I think my problem with any company is that they need to ship their products with the best fuses, or power cords etc...that they can find. I don't like having to tweek things anymore. I was never a big tweeker to begin with. If they want to, they can just ship without a power cord and let you buy one on your own. I'm probably the only on in this thread who feels this way, but I really do. That said, it's nice to see that the Antipodes DX sounds as good as it does. I assumed it would since it costs much much more. Hopefully servers will become more competitive going forward. I'm still not convinced that we won't just have hi rez streaming for nearly all our music within the next 5 years. |
I relearned today that when something isn't working, and it should be, just keep moving stuff around and see if it changes. I couldn't figure out why this Antipodes DX music server that everyone is raving about was not sonically beating my Mojo Mac mini. The DX sounded good, but not great, although it was a touch smoother, but it was certainly not as dynamic as the mini, or as extended, or with as much resolution...bummer. I received some Furutech fuses yesterday and proceeded to put two 2A Furutech fuses in the DX (yes, it takes two), then I remembered that when I first set up the DX, I did not have enough power cords so I had used an old 14awg SJT Belden cord with molded ends. Therefore, I took the time to build up a power cord from bulk Neotech NEP-3002, an 11awg cord made with UP-OCC copper wire. I used Furutech FI-25(G) connectors. Well, to cut to the chase, the DX now sounds waaay better and yes, it rocks. I am sitting here listening to "Blues for the Lost Days," "Kids Got the Blues," and others from John Mayall's 70th birthday bash at head banging volumes, and I doubt whether I have ever heard this stuff sound better in my system. For something a little more acoustic, Warren Haynes' Benefit Concert #4 with Sons of Ralph, and many others, is also sounding very nice. The DX is tonally rich and has an analog-like coherency. It sounds controlled at all volumes. With the new fuses and cord, it now seems plenty extended and well-balanced. For some reason the mini previously sounded more dynamic and had more bass drive. Things are now closer, but the mini is still louder at the same volume setting for some reason. Bass from the mini is very hard hitting while from the DX it is a bit fuller but perhaps not as well defined, hopefully this will improve. The DX reminds me of my former MUSE digital player in that it is well balanced across all frequencies but seems more focused on the midrange, which is dense and vibrant. The very high end and low end seem to be supportive of what's going on in the middle octaves. This is not a bad thing and in my experience is a good characteristic for long-term satisfaction. The Mojo mini server still sounds great, and I have more comparing to do but, for the first time since the DX arrived, I suspect I have a new server. More to come. |
Thanks to all for your advice on drives etc....Steve has gone above and beyond helping me out. I finally got the server up and working today with the DAC. I don't have the short block yet as Steve has to make it. I still have to burn everything in, but I will say after a few hours of listening for fun, I'm really excited. I can already see that it has the bones to become e SPECIAL system. I have Vandy Treos' (about to trade in for the CT version I believe) and an Ayre AX7. The server is the 2009 mac mini with the Hynes power supply and all of Steve's cables.. |
Have you guys seen this: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=2047.0 Does not do DSD but it may be really great....one review said Bricasti was in the league with Empirical.....well, one guy here says Yggdrasil is better than Bricasti....we shall see....certainly a nice price point. And cheap enough to mod. I want one to tweak....send it now! |
02-19-15: Rhanson739+1. While RAID 1 protects against failure of one of the two drives in the array, it does not protect against any number of admittedly very unlikely but nonetheless possible scenarios which could destroy or corrupt both drives simultaneously. In addition to a house catastrophe, those would include the power supply for the array going into an overvoltage condition, its controller circuitry going berserk, a severe AC power surge, a computer virus, or a latent design defect in the RAID controller circuitry or its firmware. More than a few user comments I've seen at Newegg.com concerning certain RAID hardware have recounted data loss caused by the latter possibility. Concerning HDD selection, my perception over the years has been that the best choice has generally been a moving target, often varying from one HD generation to the next. It may be helpful before finalizing a selection to review the user comments at Newegg on whatever tentative choice(s) you settle on, while keeping in mind that negative comments tend to be disproportionately represented there. FWIW, in recent years I've had good results with most of the leading brands, including Western Digital, Seagate, Maxtor, and Samsung (in all cases those being non-enterprise consumer-grade drives). Also FWIW, one of my computers, which includes two 640 gB Western Digital internal HDD's, has been running pretty much continuously for approximately the past 6 years. The drives have accumulated about 50,000 hours, with no hint of trouble and with perfect SMART readings. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
One drawback to the RAID plan is that while it is redundant unto itself, it doesn't protect you from complete data loss in the event of a house catastrophe. The better solution there is an off-site backup, or a fire safe. I don't do cloud. I use an OWC Mercury Elite Pro for backup. My primary HDD is an OWC case with an AV drive. For the exact model, I'd have to check with Benjamin at Mojo. |
I am going to use the external drive. I"ll just drag and drop files from my larger external HD to the smaller SSD internal drive to play. What are some of the names of the external HD's you guys are using and liking. I just assumed a Raid set up would be best in case of a failure I know that I can get an OWC without discs, but if so, what are the best HD's to put into it? |
I wouldn't recommend putting your music on the main internal drive, CT. (I'm running a Mac Mini with a 4TB external FireWire drive.) First, you'll have contention on the internal drive between system functions and serving up music. How much of a problem? I don't know, but it should be considered. The external drive makes backups very easy. I have another, similar drive, and simply clone the drives after new music additions are made. The clone goes in the fire safe. Given that, I don't think you need RAID, although it would be handier than my solution. |
Steve, thanks, I'm going to look for it right now and going to get that DVI cable today so that I can get the server up and running. I'll call when I'm all set and in front of things. Also need to buy a HD unit today too so that I may start to rip everything. With all the responses on HD's and burners, I'm still at a bit of a loss. This is one reason the all in one, like Antipodes makes sense if you can afford to go that route, but I'm saving money and getting great sound to boot, so I'll just sit out the new servers for a bit and see how and where the dust settles. Off to figure out a Raid 1 HD solution and figure out if I can just use the internal drive or if I need to get an external one. Oh the questions. |
Ctsooner, the Remote program is an app for the iPad. It works with iTunes only, but is very convenient. I was able to use it with a 2009 Mac Mini but not with a 2011 replacement when the first failed. Presently I use my Mac Mini running Windows 7 and JRivers MC19, but no remote program works with it. You need to have your monitor and keyboard and keypad next to you. My dac is a prototype right now but will soon be available. But this all allows me to run everything in double DSD, which is outstanding. All of this is changing so quickly that it is obsolete the moment you buy it. |
GUys, I speced out a MV server, however based on what Steve said, I went the less expensive route with the mac mini, 2009 and Hyenes power supply. I gets here in a few hours and I can't wait to finally hear my new/used OSDE with server. It will be a steep learning curve for me I think, but I'm hoping not. I will need a new HD to store my own CD;s in a Raid 1. Do you guys think that I should buy a dedicated ripper like we've discussed or just use the integrated super drive built in? Steve mentioned an iremote program, but I can't find it for some reason. Steve, is bluetooth or wifi left on in the mac? I assume you are using one or the other to use the remote iPad with the Amarra. I've never used any of these programs, so that's why the steep learning curve. Thanks all. If I had the money, I'd go with the Antipodes DX. I like PJ who distributes them and think he reps good products and supports them. I have heard a few servers and noticed big differences in each. So far, I have liked the Baetis with Berkley or the Trinity. That said, I heard them with top of the line Naim and Rockport speakers so it's hard to make judgements, lol. I heard the NAD stuff as well as their Blue sound (or whatever it's called) on Wilson Sasha's and Ayre AX5 (not the Twenty). They were just streaming from their HD files kept in Flac I was told. I didn't like either that much. The servers we are looking at are in a different league, however the Mac mini set up is 2500 or less depending on your build out, so if it's even 80% of a 7k Antipodes, that should be considered also. My personal view based on my research says that we are looking at the tip of the iceberg IRT servers. I think the costs have to come down and or the quality MUST get much better. Matt, I"ll call when I can to talk about this, but I think we will see servers start to give us everything we want within the next year or so and we will see a ton of new companies in this field. Many will be start up guys who are true computer folks and some will be companies like Ayre, Boulder, etc.. The need/demand is there for all levels and the integration, ease of use and SQ all are important and will be addressed. I do think keeping your music on your own separate HD will be built into all of them, however I do think most will have their own expandable hard drives with a large SSD to cache what you are actually listening to. You should be able to rip and listen at the same time and eventually ripping will be very fast I think as that's why most of us want, especially in the beginning. That's why I want to know what you folks feel is best for ripping right now as I"m at ground zero. I can use the integrated drive or get a top drive. I need to know your thoughts on type/brand etc.. of HD you'd start with. Once I figure that out, I'll just back up with a portable 2T HD both at my house and one at my wife's office so that I won't lose my music, lol. I an also just change servers when I feel like it. Thanks |
"The Antipodes is Unix based, while the CAT is Windows based. Any advantages to either?" As I said before, the only OS that will give you the sams SQ for wav and FLAC is Linux. "Also, couldn't Mitch simply use your Short Block to sever the USB power to his DAC? Or do you feel that the off-ramp is also needed to significantly improve his USB input stage?" Short Block may improve things for him, but it will not reduce jitter to really low levels like the Off-Ramp. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Mitch - a good USB interface requires special attention to power supply, power delivery, ground-plane integrity, impedance matching, logic family choice, clock oscillator choice, minimal gate-level design and of course implementation of the circuit board. These are all design skills that are not taught in college. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
02-16-15: Mattnshilp writes: Metralla - I meant no disrespect. I happen to have an intense fascination for the linguistic origin of expressions (and curses). I was just sharing another of my passions.Absolutely not a problem. I am just surprised given your passion you have some software that changes what you write. I'm just on a browser (Chrome) on a laptop and nothing I have changes what I write. All spelling mistakes are my own. ;) I am not familiar with auto correct - but I know it happens and you are not the first to mention it; hence my interest. We do share a similar passion and I am guilty of looking up phrases I don't quite think are right - and then getting lost in entymology. I come originally from Australia and we have a huge range of colourful expressions that many here would not know, but were part of my growing up. I sometimes fall back into incomprehensible jargon just to scare the locals. Carry on - I very much enjoy your thread and don't mean to derail it. Regards, |
Matt, I believe I read the Antipodes software is based on Fedora Linux. With the Hex, there is no need for anything to "sever the USB power" to the DAC, since the Hex does not need or use USB power from the source because the Hex has its own internal USB power supply. Also, the Antipodes DX provides two USB outputs, one that is powered and one that has no power (which is the one I use with the Hex). For now, I also run the (non-powered) USB through the ifi Power for galvanic isolation (not sure if this is needed but it doesn't seem to hurt), outputting signal only, and then through the ifi filter then into the DAC. With the Mojo mini set-up, I also took the USB power out with the ifi Power to feed the Hex only the signal side of the USB. Ctsooner, I have actually been using a mouse and screen to run the Mojo mini. I use the Pure Music player because I thought it sounded better than the other two and I like how it interfaces with iTunes. There is no particular reason why I have not switched to a remote control to run the mini, since I have both an iPad and iPhone. After using the remote (iPeng8) with the Antipodes DX, I will probably go ahead and download a remote I can use with the mini, while I further compare the two servers. |
Metralla - I meant no disrespect. I happen to have an intense fascination for the linguistic origin of expressions (and curses). I was just sharing another of my passions. Although I question some of their accuracy, I have amassed a tidy collection of expressions/curse origins. It's fun.... Thanks for posting. |
Metralla - to correct a common misconception. Auto correct corrected my "bated" to "baited". Bated here is a contraction of abated through loss of the unstressed first vowel (a process called aphesis); abate means “reduced, lessened, lowered in force”. So the expression "bated breath" refers to a state in which you almost stop breathing as a result of some strong emotion, such as terror or awe. It's not, as commonly thought, a fishing reference. |
Steve, have you ever heard the British CAD stuff? I believe their CAT transport/music server is the only other usb only music server truly designed from the ground up for primo USB output, besides the Antipodes. I understand their CAD usb only DAC is your competition (although not directly available in the US), but you and CAD seam to share similar design philosophies regarding the advantages of a good USB input. The Antipodes is Unix based, while the CAT is Windows based. Any advantages to either? Also, couldn't Mitch simply use your Short Block to sever the USB power to his DAC? Or do you feel that the off-ramp is also needed to significantly improve his USB input stage? I'm not really familiar with his DAC. Mitch - keep it coming. What you are doing is priceless for me! I just wish you had an ODSE as it would have removed a huge variable (USB input stage in the DAC). Lol. But the comparison should still sound true. As such, I wait with baited breath for your next update. |
Mitch - as I said before, it is a good USB interface that makes the Antipodes rise above everything else.Ok then, in generic terms (without listing manufacturers) please describe what makes a good USB interface. What are the important factors of a "good interface?" Is it converting USB to S/PDIF ahead of the DAC, having additional clocks before the DAC, filtering, or all of these? Is there more? |
The Antipodes DX is up and running today. A couple of early impressions are how easy it was to get the hang of the operations, and how much I enjoy the interface. Another thing I like is how easy it is to rip CDs. Mine are only taking about 5-8 minutes to rip and I can fully play music while ripping. All you do is put the CD in the front slot and wait until it pops out. The music is automatically added to your playlist. The remote interface with iPeng is very easy, versatile and works great. So far, I wouldn't say the DX sounds better than my Mojo mini but, based on Steve's comments, I will give it time. It is certainly in the same ballpark but maybe a touch less resolving and a touch less dynamic than the mini. There is no edge or glare whatsoever, but my mini also does not display those undesirable traits. The DX displays a somewhat more evenhanded presentation than my mini, which seems to do a little more with regards to attack and decay. At this point, the DX also displays a bit of lower midrange or midbass warmth, which could be affecting the perception of resolution and speed. These are very early observations and do nothing but show that both the Mojo mini and Antipodes DX are very good sounding source components. I will not be surprised if the DX gets better with time, or even if it surpasses the mini, but I will be surprised if it ends up being substantially better than the mini. I already knew the mini was good last year when I decided to sell my $7,500 CD player. |
AL I spend the day listining to a pre-production version of the darTZeel LHC-208 (Danlogue). It is a 200wpc ethernet streaming Dac/integrated amp….and it kicks butt! VERY smooth Dac that soundly beat my Chord Qute EX with Hynes LPSU. Its has a lovely analog sound and plays all up to DSD128. And the best part is that it will cost less than $14K. Extremely cheap for Dartzeel. The worst part? It wont be ready before at least 1 month and only 50 units in the frst batch and there are over 100 form orders already. This will sell like hot-cakes. |
Hi all. I invite everyone to take a look at my Virtual System in "All Out Assault" titled "Obsessed Again". I just updated all the photos with great shots of my brand new dedicated listening room. A dream of mine for 30 years!!!! I'm SO excited!!!! I'm still waiting for my back ordered GIK side baffles. And I'm still waiting for my 9m xlr interconnects from pre to amps (also backordered). So no tunes yet; Waaahhhh!!!! But soon music will flow! |
