Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

@guidocorona. I saw that. I had a problem with Amazon recently. I ordered it from a third party seller at $275. I didn't know it came from China. They sent the wrong thing. On purpose of course and it took 2 weeks to get my money back and 3 weeks waiting on item. I will let them drop a little more then go in. Lol. I just hate going through the computer audio progressions. I heard my dad on the new bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 today from the sd card. The speaker sounds pretty good. Best bowers I heard so far. There is a cd by Allen toussaint called "The Bright Mississippi" wonderful jazz album. It is one of the best Jazz recordings I have ever heard. It also might be one of the best recorded cd's I've heard in my life. When you hear it in 2xdsd it is absolutely amazing!

Guido or Matt, can you guys recommend good Rowland delaer. I would like explore Aeris DAC runing directly to Rowland 625 S2 amp. My speakers are Vienna Acoustics Liszt.
Thank you.

Denon1 - pm sent

Hi Denon1, would love to help you locate a knowledgeable Rowland dealer... I tried to send you a PM, but for some odd reason, was not able to open the PM link at all. Why don't you try to send me a PM instead...

Meantime, here is the link to the Rowland distribution network world wide:

http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/us/distribution-3.html

Guido

@denon1 how do the listz sound I almost bought them.

Calvin, You are getting your wish! Lots of replies.

MusikMike (JazzPesh) of StereoMojo fame tipped me off to Bright Missippi years ago and I have all the Alain TOussaint CDs. LoL

I have also been pushing the idea of SD card as the perfect transport for years and this is technical info from an idustry insider who has been waiting for 1TB cards to be reasonably priced for years. That way he can carry his entire library in his top pocket!

SD cards are not as noisy as USB sticks and dont constatnatly rewrite data for optimization like HDDs and SSDs. Finally, they are used for high speed digital, so audio reporduction is trivial.

My problem with the Invicta Dac is that it is totally Sabre based and I dont think Sabre will ever be SoTA...very, very good, but not SoTA. My opinion only, and no offense.

Jeff Rowland lent the Vapor/Lampi/Resolution/Verastarr guys an amp at RMAF and spent a LOT of time in that room. Must have liked what he heard with that combo...

And reportedly that system at RMAF sounded far better with the Rowland amp than it did with the Lampizator tube amp that they originally used.

I believe that the Rowland amp that replaced the Lampi was the newly redesigned M625 S2. Same amp used in Jeff's own uber system at the Rowland factory which Matt listened to.

G.

Bill, I heard different reports.
I was told that the 211amps had tube damage and was taken out as they had no spares on hand.

I read great room feedback using BOTH amps.

See some feedback below at Audio circle:
My friend entered the room so I followed not overly interested as it wasn't on my "list".
In all honesty best sound.
This was the setup I heard (211 amps pictured).

Stereophile:
Stereophile kicks off our feedback with some nice observations from JVS.

Backed by mood lighting that continually changed color, albeit not in synch with musical content, LampizatOr North America partnered with a number of other companies to present a most imposing system. Thanks to room treatment from Resolution Acoustics, whose proprietor, Bart Andeer, specializes in custom-made acoustic panels tailored to unique listening environments, the system graced recordings by Frank Sinatra, Gillian Welch, and Beck with a beautifully even gorgeous midrange and lovely warmth.

Doing the honors were, when I listened, were Vapor Audio's Perfect Storm White loudspeakers ($45,000/pair), which were debuting in final form after shipping snafus at AXPONA), and Vapor Audio's Forge Aluminum rack ($5999); LampizatOr's Golden Gate Balanced DAC ($19,800), which made its world premiere, and LampizatOr's 211 Balanced mono tube amplifiers ($11,000/pair); a complete complement of Verastarr Grand Illusion cabling plus their Nemesis USB; VH Audio Plasmatron 3-tube power conditioner ($3999); Zen Wave Audio SurgeX SEQ power conditioner ($1999); and Resolution Acoustics room treatment (approx. $43,000 total). Note that Andeer is poised to relaunch Resolution Acoustics with exceedingly lower cost treatment that will make his services far more available to audiophiles who find the best of equipment and intentions sabotaged by nasty nodes of one sort or another.

Later in the show, the LamizatOr tube monoblocks were replaced by a big Jeff Rowland solid-state stereo amp. Alas, there were too many rooms I had to cover to allow a return visit.

Tyson (Acircle and AVShowrroms raved about the Rowland setup:

This room blew my mind. Quite simply put This was the best overall room again for me. I make special mention of the room treatments by Resolution Acoustics because this room had the best bass control, image focus, and dynamics I have heard at RMAF and I know a big part of that is the detailed work Resolution put into the treatment of the room. Other rooms like JTR did a great job of bass management, but didn't quite hit the mark on imaging or other factors. The Vapor system just did everything right. And scale was TREMENDOUS. I really feel like Vapor is the only 'top of the heap' price point company actually doing it right. All the mags are doing their readership a disservice for not touting these for the last 4-5 years.

and : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h4aMjm03hk&t=1626

Of course, these are ROOM reviews and with a mixed bag of components from several manufacturers, plus room treatment experts, you cant read too much into it.

However, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link and it seems there were no weak link here?

Winson, I agree there were some mixed opinions of the room with the Lampi 211 amps vs. the Rowland 625 S2. I own the Rowland 625 and find it stunningly good, and I can only imagine how much better the S2 version must be!

@wisnon thanks for the information. I'm enjoying the fact that I'm not being hooked up to a computer is one that I love and will probably never give up. I take my best recordings get them up sampled to Dsd and I am very happy with the sound. No power supply crap. No jitter crap. No server noise crap. Im happy with what I have. Kr audio va 900 with this dac is very musical. I listen to my favorite 100 to 150 recordings through the dac in 2xdsd and if I want to listen to others I have an e.a.r CD player. When you look at it. How much time do we have to listen to music? I find well recorded music through a great dac going up to Dsd keeps me pretty happy. Resonessence did a great job. To get better you are going to spend 8k plus easy. Sd cards rock!

All I can say is that the rooms that have been mentioned were not among those that impressed me. I liked the PS Audio and German Physics rooms most. Both of these in the past did not impress me, but they turned the corner this year.

I had one Jeff Rowland first amps in the early '80s. It was very good at that time. His venturing into the class D amps turned me off.

TBG,

Variety is the spice of life!

TBG - have you heard a class D from Rowland or Merrill Audio? Condemning class D forever because of what class D used to be is like saying you don't like modern Cadillacs because your grandfather used to drive a Caddy u-boat.....

Norm, as Matt said, today's class D amps can be a far cry from the uninspiring sound of early low end class D devices common during the early part of the last decade.

Mind you, class D has the same potential for magic and horridity as any other class of operation... It all depends on underlying active and passive componentry, sophistication of circuit design, execution, quality control, and musical/sonic goals and phylosophy of the designer/engineer.

Like with any other class of operation, some companies and designers have been more successful than other companies, and within the same company, some devices have been more successful than other ones in delivering audio nirvana at their respective price points. And some outliers still seem bent to producing an acrid sound... But isn't that true of the industry in general?!

It's worth being experimentalists and shed preconceived notions... Unavoidably, some amps we will love, and some we will hate... The important thing is to listen with our ears, and suspend judgement until we can apply our musical evaluation in situ, on a case by case basis, while avoiding the pitfalls of apriori induction logic.

Admittedly, there is one thing that a big honking class D amp might have problems achieving.... That is to turn your music room into an oven.

G.

Guidocorona, yep, I listen with my ears. I have heard probably 20 different class D amps and can always hear that edge. I own three different amps now. Two are class AB with one running pretty hot, The H-Cat X-10, and the other at about room temperature, the LSA Statement Plus. My other amp, the BMC M2 monoblocks, I have never heard their classification. I continually switch between the H-Cat and the BMCs. The LSA has just become a backup.

I was so fascinated by the quad DSD recording in the German Physics/Merging Technologies room that I've forgotten their amps. Whatever they were the sound was great. If it was class D, I will eat my words.

Tbg - I just checked and that room at RMAF was using Ayre Acoustics electronics between the Merging Technologies DAC and the German Physiks speakers.

Hi Norm, I agree with you... If you have already evaluated in your own system a well broken in Merrill Veritas, Bel canto Black, Rowland Continuum S2, Daemon, and M825 in your system, and found them all to fall short of your nirvanic goals, then it is probably worth while for you to table bothering with class D technology for a couple of years longer.

G.

I am getting another MSB DAC from MSB with a different filter to see if I like that better. Not sure exactly what product it will be. I will keep you all posted.

Also should be able to get my hands on the Berkeley Reference DAC shortly as well. I want to let it burn in for a few hundred hours before I borrow it from my neighbor. But it's definitely arriving next Monday to him.

I'll compare the Berk and the MSB directly. And I still have the Emm Labs dac2x sound fresh in my mind.

Also hoping to get some time tomorrow morning to compare the Aurender n10 and my Mac mini. The N10 has been cooking for about 120 hours. Stay tuned.

Interesting Mattnshilp, the Berkeley have also now with their Reference Dac has gone back to Multibit as well as the MSB, they were both into Delta Sigma (1 Bit) only a couple f years ago.

It will be interesting how they stack up against each other as the EMM Labs is Delta Sigma, all doing RedBook

From Berkeley
"Alpha DAC Reference Series, use multi-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters - even DAC’s who advertise “native” DSD compatibility."

Cheers George

Interesting review on the $16k Berkeley Reference Multibit Dac, from Absolute Sounds.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series/

Cheers George

Hi Guidocorona, I enjoyed reading your professional review of the merril Veritas amplifiers,very well written I must say, thankyou, you know, Tbg-norm is a reviewer as well, cheers

Thank you Audiolabirynth, Veritas is a very lovely amp. Worth listening in one's own home.

Norm is a fine reviewer... BTW, we are both very fond of the HFC wire products designed by Rick Schultz in Dallas. The HFC Ultra PCs do amazing thing to my electronic components, M925 amps included.

Guido

The Berkeley Reference is not an R to R DAC. It is the cheap Analog Devices AD 1955 chip.....it is a "multibit Delta Sigma DAC" Not the same at all as R to R. I think Rowland and Empirical use this DAC chip as well.

MSB has been using a discrete R to R DAC for many years....at least 10.

There is nothing cheap in cost nor performance about the Berk Ref DAC, the Rowland Aeris nor the OverDrive. I haven't heard the Berk yet, but its reputation is excellent. I'm not sure about the Aeris DAC using the AD, I'm sure Guido can comment, but I think you are correct that the AD is used in the ODSE. My ODSE can rub elbows with dacs costing several times its price and I've heard most of them. Just because it's got an R to R doesn't make it, by default, better. So much depends on implementation and design......

Did an extended comparison of the N10 and my Mac mini this morning.

Final call: N10 wider soundstage with wider image - stretched to fit the soundstage. Image accuracy suffers as a result of that smear. It's warmer then my Mac in the midrange. Not quit as extended up top. If they were ice cream I would call my Mac French Vanilla and the N10 Butterscotch.

Low frequency extension on the N10 is extended but seams slightly less taught then my Mac Mini. I felt I got a more neutral accurate portrayal of the recording through the Mac them the N10. I have to say that the N10 only has about 120-140 hours on it and it will likely open up a lot more.

Both are excellent and it's a matter of taste. There is a HUGE difference between the two in regards to use and implementation. The N10 is plug, play and enjoy. The Mac is a computer. Settings, opening software, Etc. It's not nearly as easy to use as the N10 which is a simple App on your iPad and go. That said, I do like Jriver personally. I prefer the voice and performance of my Mac Mini over the N10.

I'll report again after it gets another few hundred hours on it.

Just because it's got an R to R doesn't make it, by default, better.

If staying with the title of this thread "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" I think it does.

As from all I've heard, a well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit Dac whether chip or discrete, run rings around Delta Sigma and all it's variants that are said to be "the best" implementation of it also.

R2R Ladder Multibit from what I've heard gives a jump factor, lower mid body and general excitement to the music. Delta Sigma while smooth is unexciting in comparison when doing RedBook.

Cheers George

George. I disagree. But I guess we will agree to disagree.

My experience has shown me otherwise. But there's no fault in you making a stand. I just worry that others reading this thread will read that it MUST be R2R to be the best and I believe that to not be the case. There are many exceptional dacs out there that make red book sound wonderful, engaging, exciting and musical that do not implement R2R designs.

Truth is, system synergy will have everything to do with which DAC you chose. Listen and try.

Ricevs right, the AD1955 is bit of a hybrid a 5bit Multibit and Delta Sigma, no R2R ladder. And far cheaper to manufacture than say a real R2R Ladder like the PCM1704K.

Sounds like an each way bet on the cheap, trying to get what Multibit can do yet still do DSD.

Cheers George

Mattnshilp.
I only want the best for RedBook replay, as your title states you want also. I have no interest in "Hirez" from what I've heard from it. Because the chips that do do it, don't do RedBook for me as good as Ladder Multibit chips can do.

There seems to be a strong growing trend of the big boys with their top line dacs and cdp going back to using R2R Multibit if not in chip form by doing their own discrete version. This must say something as well.

Cheers George

I'm not disagreeing that there are R2R dacs that make great music. I'm just saying that there are dacs that are not R2R that also make red book sound great. I don't believe in absolute statements.

I also agree with many here who have said that the recording typically sounds best in its natively recorded format. And that hi-Rez or DSD or red book matter less then reproducing them in their native format and letting them sound their best. I've heard incredible DSD, hi Rez PMC and red book all sound musical and engaging....

Hi Rez PCM. Damn autocorrect !!

Hi Matt, according to my materials, there is no indication of use of an Analog Devices AD 1955 DAC chip in the Rowland Aeris. Some dated secondary internet sources mention an Analog Devices AD1853 instead.

Regardless, I continue to listen and enjoy with my ears... No Princess And The Single Bit Pea living here *grins!*

G.

10-23-15: Georgelofi

Ricevs right, the AD1955 is bit of a hybrid a 5bit Multibit and Delta Sigma, no R2R ladder. And far cheaper to manufacture than say a real R2R Ladder like the PCM1704K.

Sounds like an each way bet on the cheap, trying to get what Multibit can do yet still do DSD.

Cheers George

George, my view is it is not fair to judge a dac chip by itself without considering the overall quality of the dac & skill of the Designer (ie: implementation). I own a Vitus SCD-025Mk2 which is a $20kEUR dac/cdp which I can say hand on heart is the best single box cd player i've heard (including a CH D1 with the dac option & Accuphase DP-700).

As a dac, the Vitus bested my previous Vimak DS-1800Mk2 which I regard as the best Delta Sigma dac ever made. I also previously owned a highly modded Ayon CD-5s which uses a quad of BB PCM-1704k chips. I enjoyed my time with the Ayon which did some things very well & was a fun player, though the Vitus is in another league altogether.

The AD1955 is $7.00.....sounds cheap to me....I quess you don't like the word Cheap? How about inexpensive?....less offensive? I did not say the Berkeley Ref or any expensive DAC is cheap....just talking about the DAC chip.....it is cheap. cheep cheep went the bird...he he.

I agree with others that say the DAC chip is only one part of the whole.....you can take a $7 DAC chip and make a state of the art DAC with it (Berkeley) if you know what you are doing. Schiit chooses to use 4 $75 R to R DAC chips in their $2300 product....but I bet it does not sound any where near as good as the Berkeley.

A couple of years ago Martin Colloms raved about the $100,000+ Audionote DAC that uses the obsolete 18 bit AD1865 DAC chip.....no digital filter at all. Says it can compete with vinyl playing CDs! I notice that Border Patrol has just released a $10,000 DAC using the same chip with tubes on the output. I am thinking of making a DAC myself with this chip....I made one around 2000 and it sounded incredible.....I have more ammunition now...should be fun.

I have found Ricevs, with current output R2R ladder dacs, very important is the I/V stage and it has to be done active without feedback, and have posted my experiments and findings here.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v.html

AD1855 is a true R2R Ladder Multibit dac.

From Analogue Devices.
"The 18-bit D/A converters use a combination of segmented decoder
and R-2R architecture to achieve consistent linearity and
differential linearity. The resistors which form the ladder structure
are fabricated with silicon chromium thin film. Laser trimming
of these resistors further reduces linearity errors resulting
in low output distortion."

Cheers George

10-24-15: Ricevs
The AD1955 is $7.00.....sounds cheap to me....I quess you don't like the word Cheap? How about inexpensive?....less offensive? I did not say the Berkeley Ref or any expensive DAC is cheap....just talking about the DAC chip.....it is cheap. cheep cheep went the bird...he he.

Priceless. When you pop the top on a lot of this stuff, and do the math, it can be a little disconcerting.....:/

10-24-15: Ricevs

A couple of years ago Martin Colloms raved about the $100,000+ Audionote DAC that uses the obsolete 18 bit AD1865 DAC chip.....no digital filter at all. Says it can compete with vinyl playing CDs! I notice that Border Patrol has just released a $10,000 DAC using the same chip with tubes on the output.

That is where its at IMO. Need Lucas at Lampizator to implement that for PCM duty.....:)

I think we all agree that It's all about the design and implementation. Not the cost of parts. I used to own an Ariel Atom. It was a steel frame and a "cheap" supercharged Chevy Ecotec engine. Cheap parts all around. But it did 0-60 in 2.7 seconds and cornered better then any Ferrari or McLaren I have ever driven. Talk about instant smile. Maker!!!

We are lucky to have so many brilliant designers and so many different ways to skin the proverbial DAC cat. Tastes vary, deigns vary, ears vary and rooms vary. It's all vary exciting!! ;)

LOl, well said Matt. In the end, all that matters is the sound to the listener and how the product fits into the audiophile's system for synergy.

10-24-15: Mattnshilp
I think we all agree that It's all about the design and implementation. Not the cost of parts. I used to own an Ariel Atom. It was a steel frame and a "cheap" supercharged Chevy Ecotec engine. Cheap parts all around. But it did 0-60 in 2.7 seconds and cornered better then any Ferrari or McLaren I have ever driven. Talk about instant smile. Maker!!!

We are lucky to have so many brilliant designers and so many different ways to skin the proverbial DAC cat. Tastes vary, deigns vary, ears vary and rooms vary. It's all vary exciting!! ;)

You have been brainwashed by the standard industry pablum. Just imagine how much better your magic dac du jour would be if quality parts were used?

Hmmm... What would these "quality parts" be?

G.

This is just a short list of hiend CDP/DAC's mainly for the best conversion of RedBook replay that use Multibit be it chip or discrete. There are a couple that do DSD if that's your bag, and there are many more that can be added to this list.

Trinity Dac
Ypsilon Cdt-100
Phasure
MSB Platinum
Total Dac
Audial (Peja Rodgic)
AMR top dac and cdp (Thorsten Loschec)
Light Harmonic
Exasound
Reimyo
CH precision
EC Designs

Cheers George

George, I think what you're espousing is a clear, laser-cut preference toward ladder/R-2R multibit and/or discrete dac chips to the exclusion of delta-sigma type dacs. It's a free world and this is an open forum. But I think there are other forums and threads where punters can read unbiased, objective commentary free of vested interests.

And since all delta-sigma based dacs didn't make it on your list, I'll check out and find another thread where it's not a closed book.

Just type in Multibit or R2R Ladder vs Delta Sigma and you will find articles by those with greater knowledge than most here, on which is the more "bit perfect" way of converting Redbook Digital pcm.

Here is just one from Loss Less, there are many many more I can post up.

"Among the several aspects which constitute D/A audio signal converter performance is the converter microchip itself. We carefully studied the available technologies and then, only after narrowing down the choices to only the four theoretically best choices, we built a device for the sole purpose of comparing these four technically best converter chips. In our device, all conditions were the same for all converter microchips.

The method LessLoss used to evaluate the sonic differences between these four microchips was as scientific as possible. We used electrostatic loudspeakers and headphones (almost massless) in order to minimize loudspeaker coloration of the signals. The opinions of highly regarded audio enthusiasts and professionals were unanimous. These tests showed that, at least subjectively, the PCM 1704 was easily the best.

Converter Chip Technology

We provide two links, one to the manufacturer of the PCM 1704, and one directly to specific data on this microchip.
•Burr-Brown
•PCM 1704
•What the hi-fi magazine Stereophile had to say when the chip was first introduced. (No, we aren't fortunate enough to be able to buy them in the thousands, and no, we don't use the cheaper version, the PCM1704U.)
•The PCM 1704 is out of production and represents the end of the era when quality was first on the minds of DAC engineering laboratories. In today's production, all remaining DAC's are of the Sigma/Delta type. These incorporate more technologies into one chip, including two channels for stereo, volume control, upsampling, and often even clock oscillators of their own. Production costs have been saved, but the issue of quality of sound reproduction is no longer the primary issue.

Many people do not know that the PCM1704 is classified into different categories of perfection. There is the PCM1704U, which is the least expensive and worst lot. Then there are better ones, which are marked PCM1704U-J and PCM1704U-K at the factory. We would like to stress that the LessLoss DAC 2004 uses only the best and most expensive PCM1704’s. We have chosen the best converter and then use only the best lot of these converters.

There is a fundamental difference between the way parallel multibit converters and the sigma/delta type work. The parallel type use a separate cascade of resistors and switches for each dynamic modulation of the audio signal, whereas the sigma/delta type (or one-bit, as they are also called), rely on a constant comparator to define changes in the audio signal's dynamic magnitude. Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages.

The main advantage of multibit conversion is that they are theoretically less susceptible to the influences of clock jitter. Their main disadvantages lie in their sensitivity to the influences of heat fluctuation.

The sigma/delta microchips have the advantage of being less sensitive to heat fluctuations, however, they react very readily to any amount of clock jitter.

We compared, using the scientific method of 'same thermal and electrical conditions', the Burr-Brown PCM1704U-K (parallel), the Analog Devices AD1862N-J (parallel), the Crystal CS43122 (sigma-delta), and the AD1955 (sigma-delta).

Of course, on the theoretical level all of these microchips are superb. Nevertheless, some differences are evident:
•Parallel multibit converters display a distortion spectrum which is more friendly to the ear. This distortion spectrum falls off at a lower frequency than it does in sigma-delta converters.
•At the lower dynamic levels, parallel multibit converters produce a much more esthetic sound than sigma-delta converters.
•Parallel multibit converters produce less sound coloration, and hence the sound is more natural, more lifelike.
•Details and microdynamics are more readily audible using parallel mulitbit converters.

Our empirical tests showed that these differences are indeed audible and that Burr-Brown's PCM 1704 is the very best converter chip in existence today. Earlier achievements in quality such as the legendary PCM63 have been bettered by the PCM 1704."

Cheers George

Georgelofi, do you recall if the Theta Gen Va is an R2R? I can't find a spec, but there are some on the forums who believe so. I have one in storage that I haven't listened to in years. If it's an R2R then I'll dust it off for comparison to K-01X.

George, really who cares? You put waaayyy too much stock in the importance of the dac chip in the overall sound a dac produces. Vitus Audio compared all the best dac chips, including the BB PCM-1704k and TDA-1541A double crown and found the AD1955 chip no better or worse that the others. It was a slight shade vs night/day difference & VA went with the dac chips that best suited their needs.

Now you may question my knowledge which is fair enough as i'm not an Audio Engineer. But this came straight from Hans Ole Vitus during the Copenhagen High End show - "Overall the dac gives very little to the complete sound. Even digital part in total I rate gives not more than about 15% or so to complete sound. PSU and analog stage combined with pcb layout matters more".

I return to what I said before, a dac is more than a dac chip. It depends on the skill of the designer, the overall quality of the dac & ultimately on implementation (how the dacs are used in the overall circuit design).

I commented earlier which vaunted dacs the Vitus accounted for. It deserves its place amongst the best single box dacs in the world...using AD1955 dac chips. Have a good day.

Hi guys. For the first time on this thread, I'm putting an end to this.

No more R2R commentary and no responses. You have made your opinion very very clear. If you want to continue I encourage you to start your own thread about how awesome you think R2R is to the exclusion of all else.

As is my attitude towards life, this thread is "inclusive", not "exclusive". By nature you have an "exclusive" attitude and that's not really welcome here. Sorry.

Feel free to follow, and feel free to intermittently post your absolute R2R support to the exclusion of all else. But once, not for a half a page and not to the point of starting a pissing match.

Enough. It's done!

I will post a review shortly on the Berkeley Ref and I have some killer cables coming in to try and I'll post my opinions as well. Keep reading.