Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Ktema!

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?17217-FS-Franco-Serblin-Ktema&highlight=ktema

http://audioshark.org/speakers-10/franco-serblin-ktema-speakers-any-opinion-5258-page5.html#.VcXZUksbpGw

Ktema has 2 large rear firing woofers and 2 rear firing ports.
Not for my room.... Although I'm sure they are great.

I heard the Trenner Friedl RA Box speaker driven by the Viva Aurora at CES 2010 and it left a lasting impression. Show conditions and yet it was one of the very best presentations I've heard. Utterly natural and realistic tone.dynamics and musical flow/pace. Simply very emotionally involving(real musicians playing in real space,very tactile). It made other systems(most of them more expensive) sound dry, sterile and hifi(canned) relatively speaking.

I have no idea how the TF RA would sound driven by high powered transistor amplifiers such as the Burmester 911. The Viva is an entirely different animal, but a beautiful one with those speakers. I could have stayed in that room the entire day.
Charles,

Charles, I remember reading your impressions elsewhere, and I took note. I know that Trenner has shown with SS as well. Norman heard the Isis speaker with Rowland....I believe....

Andrew,
If the RA or Isis has that versatility with different amplifiers that's noteworthy. I'd be surprised(pleasantly) if they equal or surpass the majestic match I heard with the Viva mono blocks.

22.5' is not a bit bigger then 18.5'. It's only 4' but it makes a big difference. My length is my issue. I made a mistake not going 23' long. I find I can't get the speakers far enough off the front wall to allow the ports to breath and stay far enough away from the speakers to make them sound good. I'm sure it's my overall dimensions and my construction, but thus far anything new that I have tried that is rear ported sets off the nodes in the room something fierce and is overwhelmingly boomy; no matter where I place them. Bottom or front ported is fine, as is sealed.

There are plenty of great options that are bottom or front ported, or sealed. So I'm good to go. I just need to pick my favorite. The Coltane Tenor is stunning! But mucho bucks! I'm just trying to find a less expensive option that gets me to the same place that the Tenor does. We shall see.

Paul - also, thanks for the suggestion. I have the soffit stuffed full of insulation. With down or front porting, I have no base issues. Clean, tight, extended base down to about 23hz. Measured. I do have some more diffusion coming next week to manage my side wall reflections a bit better. But with the right speaker, my room sings now.

In fact, although they were not my favorite speaker I did measure an absolutely flat curve from 23hz to 21khz with the Lawrence Audio Double Bass in the room. Also proved to me that perfectly flat doesn't mean musical and engaging. Although one of my friends thought they were the cats Meow.....

Have you listened to the SONUS FABER OLYMPIC 111 ? Have not heard it my self, but a lot of favorable on line comments. The port is located on the side of the speaker, (not the rear), so it might be an option. Not to expensive either (15k I believe).

CHEERS.....

Olympic III only goes down to 35hz. The Amati Futura and the Strad are amazing. But neither integrate well into my room with their port location.

The Nola Metro Gold's arrived today. I listened briefly. As expected, the rear ports activate the room and pull the room into the equation. With the bottom or front port the room is silent, it's there but neither adds nor detracts from the music. The two low frequency drivers are listed as 6.5" in the specs but I measure them as 5 3/4" edge to edge. They measure in the specs to 25hz. Audibly they do that, but the visceral sensation of low frequency extension is not truly there; it is coming from their interaction with the room as opposed to directly from the speakers. Its reliance on the room to augment extension is exacerbated in my room with my nodal issue. The reason it's not as bad as some of the other speakers is that the speaker doesn't extend as forcefully as, say, my Der Muzik's. They have refinement and finesse in the low frequencies and aren't lacking. But they don't punch and have impact like I am after.

The rest is, at least on first listen, rather musical and engaging. The ribbon has shown me no sign of harshness or shrill behavior and the mids are proper, layered and just on the warm side of neutral.

I'll keep you updated on their progress. The amps and preamp were cold.

Matt- remind us if your speaker auditions include both analog and digital front end? Which do you rely on most for speaker auditions? Is your DAC still the Overdrive SE?

Regards, Josh

Hi Josh.
75% digital , 25% analog
My ODSE is still my reference. I also have a Bricasti M1 in house. I have not had time yet to compare the 2 although they are clearly very different.

I just got this review from Audiobeat and thought I'd share as it's on the Vandy 7 mk 2 which is in the running still:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/vandersteen_model_seven_mk_ii.htm

Matt, if you are using your digital set-up 75% of the time in your speaker auditions, IMO you should consider replacing the Mac mini with a dedicated audio server before making your final decision on speakers.
The difference between using a tricked out Mojo Mac mini with outboard linear power supply, and just about everything else that can be done to a mini, and changing to an Antipodes DX server was so significant in my system that I suspect the mini may be limiting the true abilities of the speakers you are trying, particular at the level of resolution your system displays.
To try and explain the differences, I would say the DX sounds more natural, and certainly more enjoyable, because of the absence of a bit of edginess displayed by the mini, in comparison, and because of improved body, tonal density and depth displayed through the DX. It is not particularly night and day but the last 5-10% rarely is.

Mitch2, you started a thread not too long ago on the subject of servers. Why did you choose the Antipodes over an Aurender?

Mitch2,
Your suggestion is a very good one.

Why did you choose the Antipodes over an Aurender?

As it shakes out, those would be the two companies I would look at if I were looking to purchase something today. I looked into a few others but found reasons not to pursue them. I like the minimalist Linux set-up used by Antipodes and how it is optimized ot operate extremely quietly.

There were three reasons I chose the Antipodes;
1. Good feedback - At the time I was looking, their top model (DX) had just come out and all of their lower models had excellent reviews based on sound quality, and Steve Nugent (Empirical Audio) said it was the only unit he had used that bettered his special 2009 mini with Hynes PS, etc.,
2. Expandability - At the time, they had an "extender" that could be used to serve music to any room/system from the main DX unit (they discontinued that and are supposed to be coming up with something "better" but it is taking a long time), and
3. Availability/Price - I was able to purchase a 2TB SSD DX at a discount from an outgoing dealer (they now have new USA representation and are adding dealers).

Since I purchased mine, there have been several rave professional reviews of the DX citing excellent sound quality.

If I were to purchase today, in addition to the DX, I would look at the Aurender N100 or the Antipodes DV Zero, both of which are set up to play music from a NAS. My DX is also capable of playing music from a NAS if I choose to implement a "direct playback" set-up, but, for now, 2TB is more than enough solid state storage for lossless FLAC files. In addition to great sound quality, I like the Antipodes because of the easy on-board ripper, just load a CD disc and 5 minutes later it is copied, stored and cataloged. Dave Clark complained about the Vortex Box interface not being compelling enough in appearance, but it looks and works just fine on my iPad. I haven't seen the Aurender interface, maybe it looks cooler.

The DV zero, when properly set-up, is apparently equivalent in sound quality to the DX, but at a lower price. Here is what they say;

By eliminating internal storage, the DV Zero has been specifically optimised for 'direct' playback from a NAS. The DV Zero achieves a sound quality level that comes close to the DX, therefore offering the ideal solution for people with large music collections demanding the best possible sound quality.

I will close by saying I am completely happy with the sound quality of the DX and happy I purchased one instead of continuing to try and improve my system around the mini. BTW, you can purchase the DX with a SSD up to 3TB in size.

CTSooner

Thanks for the Seven MkII review. This says it all as to how incredible these speakers are.

Mitch2 - I don't disagree with your thought. But I have also spoken with others who feel that a well done computer server is just as good, and this from people have have compared them directly. I am looking at Lumin, Aurender & Antipodes. I don't have the dedicated funds until I decide on speakers to get. I'm assuming that whatever I have currently will only sound better with a dedicated server. But I'm a try before I buy kinda guy (shocker there)! I'll get all three in and see which works best for me, or that my Mac mini is actually better then we all think.

Richfield and CTSooner will be happy to hear that I have an extended audition this Thursday morning to hear the Vandy 7/2. I will report my findings.

I did get to hear the Vivid Giya2 and the Joseph Audio Pearl 3, and neither was for me. The G2 was very laid back and although the base was extended I found it tubby and disjointed from the rest of the sound. Setup and the room where clearly a factor - they have these strange sort of forward firing side ports and side firing woofers and I think the speakers were set up too close to the side and back walls. But they were simply too laid back for my tastes. The Pearl3's had a very nice engaging midrange and did wonders for vocals and piano. I found their highs to be a bit in my face occasionally and the low frequency extension doesn't go as low as I want. What it did have was tight, impactful and musical. They lacked the sense of scale and complexity I am after. With complex orchestral segments I found the speaker lacking union and cohesion.

But they did have a speaker that wasn't even on my list but works fantastically for my needs. But it was set up with mid powered tube gear and really needed high power solid state gear to shine considering its 84-85dB sensitivity. The Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate. I will be going back next week for a second listen. At 250 pounds a speaker there is no opportunity for an in home demo. I gotta do it the old fashioned way and hear them in a store.....

I'm going to try to get back next week to hear them set up with solid state gear.

I'll keep you posted.

Hi Matt, what electronics were driving the Joseph Audio Pearls? Guido

Mitch2- much appreciate your views on digital transports. I'll be following Matt's journey, which I believe will eventually get around to transport/DAC. I'm interested in the integrated storage transports- 2TB should be plenty for a music collection expected to reach 3,000 albums (80/20 redbook/hi-res) by 2020. I think?

Anyhow, I wonder if Roon's features will show up with Antipodes, Aurender, etc? I'd like to have that dynamic interaction of my collection with info from the internet. I'll try to be ready to buy in another year, which could be good timing. Meantime, I'll enjoy my Cary 306 SACD Pro and I'll continue adding to my music collection!

Finally, thanks again to all those contributing to this thread.

Cheers, Josh

Matt, I dont think you are being limited at all. You clearly state that the real problem is nodal issues with the base resulting from the geometry of the room and the config of the speaker bass ports. many of the speakers you say have delicious mids and highs, BUT the bass is consistently and issue with anything but sealed, down or front ported.

So yeah, you can improve your source, but that wont change the laws of speaker physics. No matter what the upstream is, you STILL have to find a livable speaker solution, so keep concentrating on that.

This should be particularly reassuring to you, as I threw more speaker options than most at you. LoL

This speaker thing is a bitch. Dacs are easy breezy. Matt, I wonder how much of what you're hearing at these demoes is due to poor setup? Speaker setup is a science, and I know I have mangled it repeatedly.

When will you be hearing the Ras?

First off, sorry for all the typos. I wrote BASE instead of BASS. LoL

My Bad.

GearD, I think Matt is more in the mode of ISIS than Ra, due to the visceral impact of the 15inch woofer.

If absolute MR/HF quality was not the issue, I would tell him to get a pair of FUN Silver Phantoms and call it a day! Heheheh

The Bass there is "WRONG", ie air pushing rather than vibration propagation, BUT they hit hard and are soo much fun. True plug and play with a dose of artificial intelligence as the units talk to each other and automatically adjusts their configutration to the new optimal. Imagine a club with 32 of these suckers hung on the wall and playing in Tandem! Ultimate in cool.

You know I was snobby against the Phantoms till I heard them but I must say I enjoyed the experience. Ultimate nervosa liberation. The only thing close would be the Goldmund Logos tower, but that is $60K a pair and goes down to about 40db while the SPs go down to about 30 in practical terms. The Logos will likely be more refined in mids up, but the price to improvement ratio is not very encouraging.

Surprised you found the Pearl 3 bright... It is anything but that IME. Detailed, accurate, transparent, yes. This they are. Put bad in front of them, and you hear it.

I have never been able to assess sound at showrooms or at audio shows. It just doesn't work.

If you've found something that almost works, for a decent price, it will likely be cheaper to fix the room :) Then put any darn speaker you want in there.

As was stated earlier in the thread, the Ras are simply a frame of reference Norman.

GearD, sorry, didnt see that understaood now.

On another note Ensign, belay that last order. I just good some feedback from a close friend about the Prologos Mk2, NOT the Prologos+.

Holy Moley, my pal is selling everything after he went straight for that! It was the most spectacular feedback I have seen from him or anyone for that matter. Talk about a happy camper.

He said it was even MORE spetacular at his home than his demo at Goldmund HQ and at the NYC dealer, as crazy as it sounds.

Norman, Goldmund has always been cutting edge engineering. My speaker designer (Dale Pitcher) said they have been at the forefront of mechanical grounding, etc. Their only real downside is the price tag....

But price tag may not be an issue for Mattheus. He appears to be a baller and operates in the stratosphere where most of cannot breathe.....

Too rich for my blood, but what a feedback I got.

Matt will surely haul himself to Manhatten based on what I relayed to him. I am gonna try to get a local demo myself.

What did my pal say, the future is already here and most dont know it yet…wireless!

08-12-15: Wisnon

What did my pal say, the future is already here and most dont know it yet…wireless!

Agreed! My last digital front end (circa 2005) was wireless, and what a liberating experience that was. I have been waiting for speakers and everything else to catch up, and it finally looks like it has. The best wire is no wire, etc....

If Matt does rumble into Manhattan, a visit to other hi end dealers may be in order including Jeff at Highwater Sound. i have always loved his rooms at shows. I liked the Cessaro horns and Horning speakers:

http://www.highwatersound.com

Richfield, sorry I missed you yesterday and Matt, I'm sorry I'll miss you today. I've liked many of the Dynaudio I've heard. I think that may have been the speaker I"d have gotten if I didn't fall in love with the Vandersteen when I did.

As for servers, I have Steve's mac mini with Hynes power supply and it's amazing. I"ve heard most of the servers being talked about in this thread and I have to say the the three that Matt is looking at are all outstanding, but honestly, I'm not sure if they better my set up with the tricked out OSDE/SE and the mac mini playing high rez music from it's upgraded SS drive. The only problem I have now is finding the right NAS and also CD drive as I want to rip all my CD;s to a NAS and then I may get a server when things settle down and get even better. Any NAS/Blueray, DVD drives suggestions are fine too ;)...

I also have the Mac Mini, with the SR5-18v5 Paul Hynes. SSD, 8g ram, Amarra, Audirvana... It is pretty good, but the Totaldac Server is ALLOT better in every way, most notably in transparency, dynamics, and 3D imaging/sound-staging. I also hear no difference in FLAC, AIFF, WAV, that sort of thing... It all sounds fantastic (Linux for music man!!).

The Totaldac USB Cable is a nice tweak for cleaning up the sound from the Mac Mini also. This is something cheap to try. That little sucker was my gateway drug into a full Totaldac Twelve 4 box front end, which I find to be other worldly digital reproduction. Not cheap, but I am not looking for another DAC...

I recently did a comparison to an $80K analog front end, and the Twelve held its own. Both in same system with the same music. DSD vs. LP. The Totaldac lost out to the ultimate ambient resolution and absolute perfect transparency of the analog rig, but in every other way, the two were comparable. Speed, image focus, tuneful accurate bass, soundstage accuracy, sound of the instruments, dynamic contrasting, etc...

Paul79 - I never said they were bright. In fact they were not. But I found at times they shouted at me. And the low frequency just didn't get to where I wanted. The room wasn't ideal but it wasn't poorly setup. I feel I got a good sense of what they were capable of.

Wisnon. Going Goldman is a huge right angle turn from my current direction. I'm not sure I can emotionally handle that drastic a change. I know and like Bob so I'll call him to chat.

I re-heard the Vandy 7/2 today. I don't have time now to report and I need to gather my thoughts and opinions. I'm running into the operating room. I'll post later.

Paul, the Totaldac server is pricey correct?

Matt

I'm glad you had a chance to listen to the Sevens again today. I should have coordintated I was at John's yesterday. Just so your are aware the Sevens John has are the orginal ones not the MK II version. I'm not sure there is a big of enough difference to fundamentally change your impressions but just wanted to make sure you were aware. Having said that the review the CTSooner mentioned from Audio Beat on the Seven MKII did suggest the difference was very significant. I can't wait to hear you thoughts and also am curious on the comparison between the ODSE and the Bricasti M1 now that you have had some time to compare.

Jeff

Matt, no need to do an about turn, just go lisetn to see what is possible.

You have so far been wide open in giving everything a chance to better hpne in on what you like...

Agear,

Yes, Totaldac Server is about $5K all in, with DSD. You are not just getting a server though, you get the Reclocker too. The Server is a module added (heavily shielded/modded Cubox Quad Core, with custom power supply on a board) to the Reclocker, and you still have all the inputs of the Reclocker at your disposal.

So, you can get the best from a CD Transport, or whatever other digital source you want to throw on there.

BTW, I am looking for a nice CD Transport to play with... Redbook only Is just fine with me here.

Any recommendations? Looking for around $2K tops.... Now it is going to go through the reclocker, but this only attenuates jitter, so the digital source still matters.

The Totaldac Server looks to also be R-2R resistor ladder Multibit convertor just like their Totaldac is, this may explain why it sound so good, when compared to Delta Sigma type convertors.

Cheers George

Matt these Graham Audio "BBC" speakers come highly recommended! €8K I think and the feedback is EXCELLENT!
Muniuch 2015 showroom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1wx_Uzm-WQ

Oh, and front ported too!

Georgelofi- the Totaldac Server is not a DAC. There is a d1-Integral at around $10,000 (I think) which includes an entry level DAC.

What I'd like to see from Totaldac is fewer confusing configurations and much more competitive pricing for the flagship set-up. How about simply a traditional digital transport (server; 2TB+ storage) and the 3-box d1-twelve at around $15,000. The "system-twelve", which includes NAS storage, is currently priced at over 30,000 Euro. Yikes.

Maybe Vincent should move out of France if that is creating costs? Anyhow, I hope Totaldac doesn't end up becoming a luxury brand as there are more than enough already to satisfy the biggest spenders.

Regards, Josh

The Totaldac Twelve is not cheap to make, no matter where he is located... 600 .01% foil resistors, at $20 a piece retail, it is easy to see where the bulk of the costs are. Add to that SOTA Parts, inputs, outputs, power supplies, cases, boards.... It is a luxury item, no getting around that, and it is built to be. That is why he offers several more affordable DAC's that still beat out anything at their respective prices, IMO.

08-14-15: Paul79
The Totaldac Twelve is not cheap to make, no matter where he is located... 600 .01% foil resistors, at $20 a piece retail, it is easy to see where the bulk of the costs are. Add to that SOTA Parts, inputs, outputs, power supplies, cases, boards.... It is a luxury item, no getting around that, and it is built to be. That is why he offers several more affordable DAC's that still beat out anything at their respective prices, IMO.

Agreed Paul. I looked closely at Totaldac (along with CAD) before going with Lampizator. His stuff is labor intensive and expensive to make. Most dac makers use off the shelf parts made in China and still manage to charge an obscene amount. I use his USB cable which is great. Vincent is a MIT-level engineer and the real deal. I am glad you are grooving on his products.

08-14-15: Paul79
The Totaldac Twelve is not cheap to make, no matter where he is located... 600 .01% foil resistors, at $20 a piece retail, it is easy to see where the bulk of the costs are. Add to that SOTA Parts, inputs, outputs, power supplies, cases, boards....

No question about it. And I would add that I wouldn't be surprised if in addition he has to go through a process of screening the resistors further, selecting some and rejecting others. While 0.01% is an exceptionally tight tolerance for a resistor, it does not even come close to supporting 24 bit performance in a ladder configuration. Presumably TotalDAC's use of 6 ladders per channel in the Twelve helps considerably, but consider that 24 bits corresponds to 2^24 = 16,777,216 possible states, which in turn means that the least significant of the 24 bits controls 1/(16,777,216 - 1) = 0.000006%(!) of the full scale (maximum) output of the DAC.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread, providing anything close to 24 bit performance via a ladder approach, as TotalDAC and MSB Technology apparently do, is an amazing (and invariably expensive) achievement.

Regards,
-- Al

08-14-15: Almarg
No question about it. And I would add that I wouldn't be surprised if in addition he has to go through a process of screening the resistors further, selecting some and rejecting others. While 0.01% is an exceptionally tight tolerance for a resistor, it does not even come close to supporting 24 bit performance in a ladder configuration. Presumably TotalDAC's use of 6 ladders per channel in the Twelve helps considerably, but consider that 24 bits corresponds to 2^24 = 16,777,216 possible states, which in turn means that the least significant of the 24 bits controls 1/(16,777,216 - 1) = 0.000006%(!) of the full scale (maximum) output of the DAC.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread, providing anything close to 24 bit performance via a ladder approach, as TotalDAC and MSB Technology apparently do, is an amazing (and invariably expensive) achievement.

Regards,
-- Al

Agreed Al. That is crazy, and I think Vincent goes into detail about the process he goes through in selection....kudos for his painstaking efforts....

Both CAD and TotalDac are on my list of 'really want to hear'. There is a rumor that CAD will be relocating from England to Washington state. Cool.

Also want to hear the Berkely reference (although it's still pointless because it doesn't have a usb input) and the Aesthetix Romulus Sig. Plus the new MSB V.

Just need to narrow down speaker choice.

It's interesting news about CAD. He's a US citizen and an engineer so it's not totally surprising

Matt, did Johnny use the Rom Sig on the VAndy 7's?