I will try the Romulus Sig as a DAC, not a spinner. The fact that it spins Is a bonus. The point about impedance mismatches is a very interesting one and makes me think that the Allnic D5000 may have a similar issue. It's all about system synergy in the end.
I have had several tell me the ODSE beat the Emm DAC2X on their evaluation. And the Meitner was much more analytical and sterile then the ODSE. All I can say is that the DAC2X was not sterile; It was clean and natural with aire and an almost ephemeral ability to reproduce the instruments, the vocals and the space between.
My neighbor acquired a Berkeley Ref DAC and the Berk usb to spdif converter. It will be here within a week. I'll report when I can. It should be here the same time that the MSB will be here, and the Emm DAC2X is on a 2-3 week extended audition so I should have all 3 at the same time, along with the Romulus. Wow. That should be a good competition.
Stay tuned. |
Grannyring, I'm pretty sure you would have felt differently if you used the Aesthetix as a dac only. The built in cd player is not very good. I have compared my Dac to my friends Yamamoto and I agree its good but it is not better. |
Another way to say it is the Yamamoto dac with several mods is indeed a contender. No DSD however. No USB so an Offramp is needed with it. |
Thank you for the update Matt. I have been following quietly and enjoy the thread and well written humor.
Having owned the Romulus and finding the $2200 Yamamoto dac to be better, I think your session will not last very long. |
Matt,
Your written descriptions of what you hear is very well done, when you describe the Isis analogy of the comfortable cabin on the mountain top, that sold me as the speaker which stirred the emotions more deeply with more appeal to the soul(well my interpretation anyway 😃). I admit my bias is toward the organic/holistic end of the spectrum. You make it clear both are quite exceptional in your home system. Again this adventure has been fun and informative.
Best Regards,
Charles, |
Matt,
That was a Whomper of an update and I enjoyed reading it!
Glad you finally found the perfect speaker for you. Exciting news about the Emm dac. I have to admit I'm disappointed the Antipodes didn't come out better.
I'm going to stay tuned to read about about your Aurrender and the Romulus reviews.
Thanks! |
Matt. I am impressed. Well over 18 months ago, and before the birth of this wonderful blog, you approached me about purchasing my EMM DAC2x and I told you what replacing it with...the ODSE! While I personally found the EMM sterile and lifeless, your insight is intriguing. Before I sold the EMM I updated with the newer firmware, I found improvement but not to the level of the ODSE.
After reading Chris Connikar recent review on CA, and trusting your ears I encourage any current EMM Dac2x owner to send their unit back to Calgary and bring your dac to the current HARDWARE, and firmware standard. The unit I sold was an early generation of the 2x. From CA article, EMM has made some significant changes to the DAC2x.
Anyone interested in purchasing one, call Sanjay Patel at Ciamara. He is wonderful to work with.
Matt, and to everyone who contributes to this thread, thank you! |
Matt, I am so proud to be a member of the rarified community of your certifiable crazy friends... Whether our symptomatology conforms to the canonic chronic model, or ours is a boundary acute degenerative case, I venture to say that we do all reach well into the stratosphere of audiophrenic morbidity.
* As you know, my bet was on the Dynaudios... I am confident that they will soar to even further heights during the next few months.
* I do admit that the win of EMM over Empirical is a stunning upset, particularly given the magnitude that you experienced. I am now intrigued to no end by what EMM has achieved. Will you be testing the upcoming Empirical superDAC as well?
* The following new thread contains a data point suggesting that the Bryston BDP2 might be a strong contender versus Aurander, in spite of BDP2's significantly lower price point:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1443219284&openusid&zzGuidocorona&4&&
Saluti, G. |
Matt, congratulations on reaching this major milestone in your journey. Enjoy! A point to keep in mind regarding your forthcoming audition of the Aesthetix Romulus Signature: It will be marginal, at best, in terms of its compatibility with the relatively low input impedance of your Burmester preamp (11K balanced/16.5K unbalanced, and I assume you will want to use the balanced inputs). The manual for the non-Signature Romulus states: Recommended load impedance: >20Kohm balanced; >l0Kohm single-ended And I would emphasize the ">"; presumably loading that is not significantly greater than those values would represent at least a small degree of compromise. The corresponding numbers for the Signature version, which don't appear to be published, would probably be somewhat lower (better) than that, due to the output coupling capacitor upgrades it incorporates. But I suspect it would still be just marginally compatible, with the most likely consequence being some amount of rolloff in the bottom octave. So be sure that your assessment includes particular focus on material having significant content in the very deep bass region. A number of other Aesthetix products are similarly marginal with respect to low impedance loads, which is why I suspected there might be an issue in this case and checked into these numbers. Best regards, -- Al |
Matt, Congratulations on your new speakers. Hopefully, they will last a couple of years before you start loosing your sleep again:)) I wish you tried Coincident Pure Reference Extreme, but this is a different audio philosophy: high power transistors vs low power SET tubes etc. I am quite surprised by your Antipodes findings, but it is good to know that a modified mini can outperform a specialist music server. My mini was an old stock unit, so my results were quite different. Also, I would choose the Antipodes just for its usability features alone, as I said, I hate iTunes and had some unfortunate experiences with it. I will also look at different server options after the DAC upgrade and would be very much interested about your experience with the Aurender models. Which model are you going to look at? W20 is probably a great product, but in my view is way overpriced. Another interesting choice is the new Lampizator DSD Komputer: http://lampizator.eu/Fikus/KOMPUTER_-_MUSIC_SERVER.html. This a completely different approach to the Antipodes: a high specs Windows 2012 R2 Server machine with Swiss Audiophile Optimizer and JRiver as the user interface. It can convert PCM to DSD on the fly which is a great attraction to all Lampizator DAC owners including myself, even with my DAC DSD is superior to PCM. The EMM Labs DAC2X must be a great DAC to outperform ODSE. It is on my DAC list to try and compare to Lampi GG. Does it support DSD? Thanks, Aziz |
Matt,
Congratulations. I hope the Dynaudios keep you very happy for many years. You certainly put in the work and effort to reach this point.
Charles, |
09-25-15: Mattnshilp
Agear, CTSooner, Wisnon, Guido and the rest - I have decided that you guys are all as crazy as I am. Its bad enough I've gone on this insane fools errand. But you guys just came to watch me go on the errand. Which makes you fools as well…. LOL. Grins. HEHE and all that. My pathology appreciates your pathologies! Thanks for the company guys, and for all who have read, contributed to and followed along for well over a year now! My bet was the CU. The real question is 5 years from now which speaker will remain standing. I have my $ on the Isis...:) Good luck Matt. I will revisit in a year or so.... |
HUGE UPDATE - THE ONE YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR:
I'm pregnant… LOL
ok, I'm not…
First off, I have made the official decision that for now, the Consequence Ultimate is my end point. With the adjustments in the room and the placement fine tuning, the speakers work flawlessly with no direct room interaction, no shout, no boom and just clean music. They do everything superbly and nothing, to my ears, is missing or flawed. They are a window to everything upstream. yes, they need more placement adjustments but I feel that they give me everything I want and with more effort, love and attention they will just keep giving me more. I like them better then the Isis and as much as the Tenors which did the same things but in a slightly different way… I will still admit that if I gad been able to make a deal for the Tenor's, I would have stopped there. They were that good and anyone considering spending that kind of money with a smaller room would be crazy not to listen to them!
The Isis have been purchased by my neighbor and we are, together, building a great system around them including the Aurender N10 and Berkeley Reference DAC (if it doesn't take 9 months to come in) which will give me access to some fun stuff to borrow as well. Win Win… Plus I can go over and hear the Isis whenever I like…
Now for some DAC news. Some BIG DAC news!!!!
First are impressions of the Allnic D5000 DAC. If I were comparing this DAC to anything else I have heard and reported on I would not say what I am about to say. Comparing the D5000 to my loyal, truth worthy giant killer ODSE and the crazily well reviewed and respected Emm Labs DAC2X is really not fair. The D5000 is actually closer to the DAC2X then the ODSE from a price point. The D5000 sounded soft compared to the other 2, which makes sense since its all about tubes. It sounded very soft to me. The base was thin in comparison and the upper mid registers were just not there. Standing on its own or compared to most other DAC's I have reported on over the many pages, it would favor rather well and I would suggest anyone interested in a tubed DAC start their search here and with the soon to be evaluated Aesthetix Romulus Signature. But to be blunt, it was easily outclassed by both the less expensive but giant killing ODSE and the more expensive DAC2X. I'll leave it at that…
Now…..
Wait for it…..
Cuz Here it comes….
After 51 pages of raves and more comparisons then I can even count anymore I can, for the first time, say that "The Kind is dead. Long Live The King!"
For the first time since I started this journey I went back and forth between my ODSE and the competition and ended up preferring the competition. The Emm Labs DAC2X has dethroned my ODSE and brought me closer to the music and audiologica Obsessiva bliss.
And it wasn't a small win. It does it with gusto! It does EVERYTHING better. Highs are more accurately reproduced, proper and extended without the faintest chirp of brightness, shrillness, shriek, or wince. The mids are natural and flat out real in a way the ODSE touches but just can't do the way the DAC2X does. Vocals are in the room with dimensionality, depth, realism and complexity. Base is lightning fast, clean, clear, extended and natural. Double Bass is reproduced like nothing I have heard before. Tympany has depth, impact, layering and scale. The soundstage expands in every direction while creating a more natural aura around each performer and placing them in their proper location in the X, Y and Z access. Its uncanny. I can understand, for the first time, when reviewers say their digital sounds like analog.
What can I say…. The DAC2X is over twice the cost of the ODSE but its worth every penny. The ODSE is a miraculous DAC and kills everything else close to it, but their is clearly a level about and the DAC2X is solidly in that upper tier.
I am going to listen to the Aesthetix Romulus Signature in a few weeks because I desperately want to and need to be able to advise those who ask where it stands in the pecking order (especially with its tubed nature). I am very curious to hear how it compares to the ODSE and I will let you all know…
On the Monday I get back from RMAF, a pretty nicely loaded MSB Dac and its matching MSB surge suppressor will be sent my way. With the crazy performance of the Emm DAC2X, I am truly exploding to hear the MSB in my system and compare the 2. The Emmlabs dealer, Larry from northern Jersey, is a great guy and has generously offered to let me keep the DAC2X until the MSB arrives so I can compare the two directly.
I also think I have secured a CAD and Rockna DAC audition but it looks like they will not be for quite some time based on my very resent conversation with their importer. LIke December potentially.
In regards to the Antipodes DX comparison I will again report some surprising findings….
After comparing the DX to my purpose modified Mac Mini over about 2 hours, I can say with certainty that I prefer the music generated by my Modded Mac Mini. I had left the DX on for 3 days with signal running through it to really prep it. It linked right up with the computer and to all DAC's without an issue and the iPhone App iPeng8 was great. I wanted to like it…. I REALLY wanted to like it better!!!! The Tidal controls on the Mac Mini sorta suck form my iPhone to be honest, and the DX has a great built in ripper which is SO convenient… I wanted to like it better.
I ripped several store bought CD's directly onto the DX as well as my SongList CD that I bring to stores with me for my auditions. In all cases, I just preferred the Mac Mini more. My friend was 100% dead on (as is CTSooner). Base response on the DX is limited compared to the Mac Mini, and its not that the Mac is overemphasizing them. The DX affects leading and trailing edges in a definable way and although it, at first, appears to have a wider soundstage it really doesn't. Its just very slightly smeared with a "wider" soundstage but less accuracy in imagine and placement.
Its very convenient but I will not be replacing my Mac Mini just yet. I will try the Aurender when I can get my hands on it, and hope to try the CAD and Rockna servers when they become available to me in December along with their DAC's.
I also have a dealer friend who is a Lumen dealer and he has an A1 to try out (although the Lumen really relies on their own internal DAC and only has I2S digital outputs). I need to check to see if the DAC2X has I2S inputs, and I would certainly try the A1 with its internal DAC as well…
I'm trying guys. Its a LOT of work and time to do all of this and I have obviously gotten SO much out of the effort this far. Please remember that my opinions are based on my ears, my room and my system and your experience with different gear may/will vary dramatically from mine. Always hear anything before you buy it and never buy anything purely on reviews and web opinions!
For right now, I'm done with my speaker search. Officially. I have a few dealers and reps who still want me to try some stuff as it becomes available and I will be happy to do so. But my goal, other then to continue my insane DAC search, is to fine tune placement of my speakers and treatments to get the most I can from my room. And then start helping my neighbor to do the same in his room. Its way more fun spending other peoples money though!!!!!
Cheers! and sorry for the typos. Hopefully you still got the gist... |
No worries CT. I don't offended easily nor was I with your last post. I understood.
Thanks Aziz. Got it.
Mapman - yes $20K will get DCS but not top level DCS. And DCS is one of the few brands that I have heard (although not in my room) and liked, but don't want to go there because of the massive amount of space they need and extra cabling, power cords, etc. with the other top stuff out there I feel comfortable looking past DCS.
Agear, CTSooner, Wisnon, Guido and the rest - I have decided that you guys are all as crazy as I am. Its bad enough I've gone on this insane fools errand. But you guys just came to watch me go on the errand. Which makes you fools as well…. LOL. Grins. HEHE and all that. My pathology appreciates your pathologies! Thanks for the company guys, and for all who have read, contributed to and followed along for well over a year now! |
Matt, I think my last post came off wrong. If so, I totally apologize. I fully understand what you are looking for. I do wish you were able to get every one of the speakers you have heard into your room to really see how they'd do. You have done so much research that by now you know what designs will be best for your situation. I admire the heck out of what you are doing to build your system. On a side note, I have had a DX in my system vs my mac mini with Steve's power supply and tweaks with all high rez cuts that are properly recorded and my mini won out in nearly all areas. The sound stage may not have been quite as big, but it's was THIS close. The bass digs deeper and tighter with the mini and the dynamics are better. I also feel the leading and trailing edges are better with the mini.
I think things are so close that it's just hard to chose and that's why I have passed for now. I'm sure soon that servers will get better and better and when they do, I'll be ready to make a switch. Thanks for doing what you are doing. it's fun to try and keep up. |
Isn't $15-$20K still DCS money these days?
If so, DCS is the only thing I have heard that I thought maybe dropping that much on if I could. And even that is a big "might". I've heard a lot of good digital on very good systems since I last sampled DCS a few years back.
I've been quite happy since for several years with mhdt DACs. I suggest anyone looking to drop big bucks on a DAC try those first. I've never a/b compared the two but both are top notch in regards to musical satisfaction based on what I have heard to-date. |
09-25-15: Knghifi
Here's a suggestion, keep the Dynaudio and when you and neighbor both need a change, swap speakers. Brilliant.... |
Matt,
Please, call me Aziz, which is actually my name :))
I have not made a detailed comparison between my DS Reference and the mac mini. I just put in the DS and was so happy with the sound that It never came up to my mind to try the mini again. Also, at that time I was so fed up with the various usability issues I had with iTunes and Audirvana, I was glad to get rid of the Mac mini and never use again. The DS was so much easier to use. Sound wise, I remember more bass extension and better soundstage. Also, it seemed at the time the DS was more revealing and I simply heard more music with the server.
Aziz |
Berk ref Dac? Is he buying used? I have a pal who has been waiting for 9 months now. In the meantime, he moved from a Balanced B7 to a Bal GG.
Bruce Brown just got his Bal GG and will be taking to to RMAF and playing thru Cavalli Liquid Gold Headphone amp and Abyss Headphones! Room 8000.
Should be good for all who can make it. |
Oh, and I guess I do need to decide which speakers are my keepers. I'll keep the suspense running for now. Here's a suggestion, keep the Dynaudio and when you and neighbor both need a change, swap speakers. |
Matt, you are holding up your neighbor's party train. Time to let the Isis go...:)
If you are still having trouble deciding, recruit your wife and kids to assess the two speakers. More than likely, they have better hearing than you do.... |
Alright. So, instead of spending a few late hours last night comparing the Antipodes DX to my Mac Mini, I spent my time in the hospital sewing up a few unfortunate soles. I got about 3 songs in before I got paged.
A good friend compared his PC Laptop server (unmodified) to the DX and felt the DX gave up a bit in low frequency extension and truncated trailing edges. He also said the differences were very subtle and opted to stay with his multi-functional and inexpensive laptop as a source.
Abe, I am curious as to what you found the advantages of the DX over the Mac mini were. My first impressions are subtle differences, nothing staggeringly better with the DX. Since I only compared 2 songs it's hard to hang my hat on those impressions, but the DX does have better staging and dimensionality, a tiny bit more "analog" sound. But I agree with my friend that with the DX there MAY be a very subtle loss of low frequency impact and dynamic scale (although in my 2 song comparison it could have simply been the power of suggestion). I admit that it could, and may very likely be, that the DX's representation of those low frequencies is simply less distorted and more accurate, and the Mini is providing a touch of hyperbole. I did not notice a loss of edge detail, but I didn't get to the songs I can more easily hear that on. As Scotty from Star Trek says, "I need more time"
The Allnic D5000 was replaced with one with new tubes and I'll get to it this weekend. I have an Emmlabs Dac2x arriving today. And I have secured access to a well burned in Aesthetix Romulus Signature. And the MBS DAC V with quad usb will be arriving with its specially made power conditioner after RMAF. Other then the infamous Golden Gate, the CAD, Rockna and TotalDAC I will have heard everything else I wanted to. Let's see where this crazy ride will lead us!
Oh, and I guess I do need to decide which speakers are my keepers. I'll keep the suspense running for now.
Finally, my neighbor has decided to go for the Berkeley Reference DAC and the Aurender N10 server as source, which is awesome since I'll be able to borrow both and compare them with what I end up with.
Hazah, I say! |
It is funny. For most of us, it's a very personal thing to sit isolated and pensive, absorbed in our sonic bliss. Yes we all enjoy sharing our passion for both the gear and the music with like minded folk. But since we congress via forum we have no geographic ties and only occasionally have the opportunity to truly share what we discuss. I guess that's what makes the shows nice, we are willing to travel for them sometimes and can sometimes meet and listen together; typically with a great glass of wine. It's infrequent, but wonderful when it happens. The local clubs do offer a more frequent interaction. But my life style, children's age, and wife demands limit my ability to be more frequently involved in that, sadly. |
Isolationist by default, we're scattered all across the country/world. What choice do we have? Andrew I'd love to checkout your SOTA room. One small obstacle, I'm in Michigan and you're in North Carolina. Not exactly neighbors unfortunately.
Charles, |
Gear,
I knew you were jesting and so was I! LoL
Isolationist perhaps, but I do intend to pay Matt a viit next tiime I am in his neck of the woods. It will be great to meet him in person and see his setup after reading so much about its genesis.
Again my vote would go for CH amps or Goldmund Telos amps. Speed kills! Heheh. |
Based on how Matt describes the Isis, I suggest that CH precision amps would be a great match. Lots of speed.
T&F shows with Rowland gear at the Zurich show... |
09-24-15: Wisnon
You guys dont even allow for equipment break-in time before you mob Matt for updates.
Let the wine breathe...he just opened the bottle! My previous post was completely in jest. We are all just a bunch of bored, voyeur losers. I wished I lived nearby so I could bring a bottle of wine over and hear what was going on. This is such a weird, isolationist hobby. So Matt, is your neighbor snagging the demo pair while you are set on the CU? I would be curious to see how the Isis sounded with bad boy class A like Clayton, Gryphon, or these: https://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-graff-gm-400-beautiful-like-new-2015-09-11-amplifiers-07853-long-valley-nj |
I stand corrected. I was told by a Rowland dealer yesterday that the 625 S2 now employs the Ncore. I was surprised but took it for gospel as it came from a dealer I trust. Looks like a nice unit either way. |
Hey Matt... I'm mating my Merrill Audio Veritas monos with a Primaluna Dialogue Premium line stage preamp and the combo is just plain awesome. Tell your buddy to look into the Primaluna...He wont regret it. A match made in audio heaven. Music just pours out...directly into your ears. No audiophile approved drinking glass needed. |
Bill is correct.... Worth pointing out that M625 S2 and original, M725, M825, and M925 all make use of PFC rectifiers that feed high voltage DC current in the SMPS. Furthermore, it seems that M625 S2 is a substantial re-design under the hood... Sorry, I do not have too much detail yet, besides the use of ceramic boards, 4-pole caps... There is lots more detail.
G. |
Matt - If I may correct you on one point, the Rowland 625 (which I own) as well as the series II version are Class A/B output amplifier designs, which do not use an nCore module. The 625 and 725 are their top level amps using a Class A/B output stage along with Rowland's custom SMPS. Their 825 and 925 amps do make use of the nCore output modules combined with Rowland's unique SMPS design. |
I had already advised my neighbor to pursue a Rowland Corus preamp to sublimely mate with the Veritas and the Isis. He had emailed T&F directly to ask what solid state electronics they suggest and he was informed that T&F voice the speakers with Rowland gear, and occasionally Burmester and Crayon. So it seams the Veritas and Rowland combo will work as well as I suspected. If he wants to upgrade to the new 625 series 2 Rowland amps utilizing the NCore module later, or go for the 825, it's a natural progression and the Veritas is easily sellable. As I said, I prefer the Veritas over the Burmester on the Isis. I know of Crayon but have not heard them.
Heading down to listen now. |
Thank you Matt, I suspect your neighbor will be very happy for many years with this decision. He obviously trusts his ears and that's good. |
I suspect that if T&F enjoy high synergy with the lovely Veritas, they would sound absolutely amazing with my Rowland M925 monos. Like Veritas, M925 use NCore NC1200 technology in the output stage. M925 overall design pushes the performance of NCore into uber regions.
Yes, I have direct experience with both these marvellous amps. Both do incredible things for their respective price points.
If anyone is attending RMAF, Rowland M925 will be featured in the Nordost suite. The entire system will be likely cabled with the recently released Nordost Odin II wires.
Guido |
He's buying the Veritas off me. He a LOVED the combo.
I didn't play him the Dynaudio. He was juiced for the T&F and had no interest in hearing anything else. They pushed his buttons and he was done. |
Matt,
What amplifier does your neighbor plan to use with the Isis?
Was he impressed with the Dynaudios?
Charles, |
Thanks Wisnon.
The DX has been on since Sunday and is warmed up and, I believe, ready to audition and compare. I'm hoping to get that done today.
The Isis have stabilized and have sounded consistent for the past 36 hours with no discernible change. My neighbor came over yesterday, I left him alone for 90 minutes in my room, and then came out and told me to order a pair for him on the spot. I have swapped out my Burmester amps for my Merrill Veritas monoblocks with the Isis as I find their absolutely neutral presentation, unlimited dynamics and lightning fast speed to better suit the warmer aura the Isis provides.
Hopefully the dealer will be over today to retube the D5000 Allnic DAC so I can start playing with that as well.
I will try to get you solid, honest impressions ASAP. I have a lot of gear in and more is coming. I'm trying to make a game plan and some decisions as quickly as my time permits. |
You guys dont even allow for equipment break-in time before you mob Matt for updates.
Let the wine breathe...he just opened the bottle! |
So, are there any meaningful updates or must we carry on with this tiresome banter? |
Matt, any update on the Antipodes? Have you downloaded the manual? Did it help wth the iTunes issue?
Thanks. |
Gear, must be the Summer work-stressers getting on to me... Mine was only a very mild encouragement for Matt to consider audiophilic poly-somethingery or rather.... I'll be fully PC again tomorrow *grins!* |
Ah Guido, I can't afford a wife and a mistress. But I want to give both of my lusty wenches the opportunity to settle in and move past the first few dates entering into phase 2, really getting to know to her, or them.
Agear - speed dating sounds fun but has its costs. I do, admittedly, like to taste everything on the buffet table before going back for a big helping of seconds of my few favorites. |
09-23-15: Guidocorona
Hmmmm... Matt, You seem to be in the horrid position of having fallen in love with two divine girls! ... Oops, I meant speakers!
Which one will be your girlfriend... Double Oops, so sooorry, I meant... Which one will you choose?
May be... Marry both?! Guido, I am a little surprised. You usually carry yourself with such grace and decorum, but.... A few days ago, I accused someone of being an amplifier polygamist on Whatsbestforum. I am not sure Matt fits that mold. He seems more of a speed dater.... |
Hmmmm... Matt, You seem to be in the horrid position of having fallen in love with two divine girls! ... Oops, I meant speakers!
Which one will be your girlfriend... Double Oops, so sooorry, I meant... Which one will you choose?
May be... Marry both?!
Aloysius
|
It seems clear both the Trenner- Friedl and Dynaudio are world class speakers. As mentioned before, different design philosophy yielding different sonic characters (as one would expect). Matt's earlier amplifier analogy and follow up detailed listening comparison sums it up effectively. Both superb speakers. One appeals more(emotionally) to the heart and soul, the other has outstanding cerebral appeal without being guilty of analytical sterility. So it's a matter of which wears better long term? A listener's inherent bias/taste will determine that. This speaker journey has been fun and interesting to follow. |
Matt, I think the discussion was circling around the perception of the Isis as "rolled off" and what that actually meant in terms of engineering. The fact that the room played a roll is very interesting. Still more time on the stove for the Isis obviously.
Manufacturers of electronics regularly quote distortion specs. Speaker manufacturers do not. There is a reason for that. They are distortion machines...:) |
CTSooner - my final decision against the Vandy 7 had to do with how their low frequency driver is implemented. I understand all the tech behind the low frequency signal attenuation prior to amplification and the fact that it "theoretically" conveys the voice of the amp to the woofer but I don't believe it to be 100% effective in real life application. It works, but it's best implementation would be with Vandys own amps. I wasn't ready to give up completely the magic that comes from my Burmester Amps in those lower frequencies. I also didn't love the down firing, side ported design. I heard it and felt it but I did not get that direct radiation I prefer. In the end, It was just a matter of implementation and preference. They are sensational without doubt, but I found other choices suited my tastes more. |
Guys, this is not a matter of flat vs not flat. We are talking about crazy expensive, top tier product in all directions. I'm sure all of them are "flat" from the sublimely low frequency to the ridiculous ultra sonic. It's not a matter of specs, and I don't believe it's a matter of distortion. Every speaker I have heard, tried, or purchased is considered state of the art, whether it was to my taste or not. To say that the Avalom Isis or the Vandy 7 or the Dynaudio Comsequence has more distortion or isn't flat or is in some way colored is pretty much ridiculous. These speakers are all designed to the best of their perspective companies abilities with their particular take on Uber Speaker design, acoustics, psycho-acoustics, phase/time alignment management, voicing, etc. Add to that the fact that even the worlds perfect speaker will sound totally different in my room versus your room and it makes the whole damn process that much harder.
The Trenner & Friedl Isis is simply voiced differently then the CU. It has different priorities, completely different design and different psycho-acoustic properties. As a result, it does 28hz to 40khz flat and throws a soundstage you can drive an RV through. It's voiced a certain way and accomplishes it's particular goal with great success. It does this with simplicity, elegance, refinement and is utterly understated. It is the warm cabin on top of the mountain with a roaring fire, a well broken in leather chair by the blazing hearth and a glass of Cognac VSOP that is that perfect temperature to simply float from the glass and evaporate relaxation onto your palate.
The CU is a masterpiece in engineering and complexity of design, crossover implementation and artistic beauty. It applied over 30 years of continued success from a brilliantly unorthodox design and improved upon it. It is not understated nor is it overzealous. Although brimming with drivers, it's nigh impossible to identify anything other then a unity of sound, a meticulous amalgam of perfection that paints a picture as if from a single brush stroke. Yes, the colors are more vibrant then those chosen by Trenner & Friedl but equates to comparing the spectacular colors of a sunset over the ocean as the sun descends just to the horizon to the majestic flow of heather and wheat during a gentle breeze at the base of a grey and white mountain range of breathtaking beauty. One is simply not better then the other. They both touch the sole and enraptured the spirit.
It's a nice place to be- deciding between those vistas. No bad choices, only choices.
An extended audition is truly the best way to tell. I would call an extended audition a purchase. The beauty of it is that if one finds its not all it was initially, the other option is just a sale and a purchase away.... |
Ctsooner, the driver compliments and designs are very different on the two speakers. The Isis uses a titanium compression tweeter and not a soft dome like the 7. It also does not uses power bass drivers. So who knows.... |
Gear, I don't doubt it. That said, he didn't even bring the Vandersteen 7's into his room and they too are flat all the way out (all of Vandersteens are). They have near pistonic drivers and sound the way you mention you like things, but he didn't go for them either. I too feel most things are too bright and get fatigued very easily. You've seen my posts elsewhere. So many companies tip their highs a DB or two and that's because at first blush they sound extended, but the reality is, they are just distorted and not flat. Flat to some is boring. To most reading this thread, it's nirvana. |
