Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
10-24-15: Ricevs Priceless. When you pop the top on a lot of this stuff, and do the math, it can be a little disconcerting.....:/ |
I have found Ricevs, with current output R2R ladder dacs, very important is the I/V stage and it has to be done active without feedback, and have posted my experiments and findings here. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v.html AD1855 is a true R2R Ladder Multibit dac. From Analogue Devices. "The 18-bit D/A converters use a combination of segmented decoder and R-2R architecture to achieve consistent linearity and differential linearity. The resistors which form the ladder structure are fabricated with silicon chromium thin film. Laser trimming of these resistors further reduces linearity errors resulting in low output distortion." Cheers George |
The AD1955 is $7.00.....sounds cheap to me....I quess you don't like the word Cheap? How about inexpensive?....less offensive? I did not say the Berkeley Ref or any expensive DAC is cheap....just talking about the DAC chip.....it is cheap. cheep cheep went the bird...he he. I agree with others that say the DAC chip is only one part of the whole.....you can take a $7 DAC chip and make a state of the art DAC with it (Berkeley) if you know what you are doing. Schiit chooses to use 4 $75 R to R DAC chips in their $2300 product....but I bet it does not sound any where near as good as the Berkeley. A couple of years ago Martin Colloms raved about the $100,000+ Audionote DAC that uses the obsolete 18 bit AD1865 DAC chip.....no digital filter at all. Says it can compete with vinyl playing CDs! I notice that Border Patrol has just released a $10,000 DAC using the same chip with tubes on the output. I am thinking of making a DAC myself with this chip....I made one around 2000 and it sounded incredible.....I have more ammunition now...should be fun. |
10-23-15: GeorgelofiGeorge, my view is it is not fair to judge a dac chip by itself without considering the overall quality of the dac & skill of the Designer (ie: implementation). I own a Vitus SCD-025Mk2 which is a $20kEUR dac/cdp which I can say hand on heart is the best single box cd player i've heard (including a CH D1 with the dac option & Accuphase DP-700). As a dac, the Vitus bested my previous Vimak DS-1800Mk2 which I regard as the best Delta Sigma dac ever made. I also previously owned a highly modded Ayon CD-5s which uses a quad of BB PCM-1704k chips. I enjoyed my time with the Ayon which did some things very well & was a fun player, though the Vitus is in another league altogether. |
Hi Matt, according to my materials, there is no indication of use of an Analog Devices AD 1955 DAC chip in the Rowland Aeris. Some dated secondary internet sources mention an Analog Devices AD1853 instead. Regardless, I continue to listen and enjoy with my ears... No Princess And The Single Bit Pea living here *grins!* G. |
I'm not disagreeing that there are R2R dacs that make great music. I'm just saying that there are dacs that are not R2R that also make red book sound great. I don't believe in absolute statements. I also agree with many here who have said that the recording typically sounds best in its natively recorded format. And that hi-Rez or DSD or red book matter less then reproducing them in their native format and letting them sound their best. I've heard incredible DSD, hi Rez PMC and red book all sound musical and engaging.... |
Mattnshilp. I only want the best for RedBook replay, as your title states you want also. I have no interest in "Hirez" from what I've heard from it. Because the chips that do do it, don't do RedBook for me as good as Ladder Multibit chips can do. There seems to be a strong growing trend of the big boys with their top line dacs and cdp going back to using R2R Multibit if not in chip form by doing their own discrete version. This must say something as well. Cheers George |
George. I disagree. But I guess we will agree to disagree. My experience has shown me otherwise. But there's no fault in you making a stand. I just worry that others reading this thread will read that it MUST be R2R to be the best and I believe that to not be the case. There are many exceptional dacs out there that make red book sound wonderful, engaging, exciting and musical that do not implement R2R designs. Truth is, system synergy will have everything to do with which DAC you chose. Listen and try. |
Just because it's got an R to R doesn't make it, by default, better. If staying with the title of this thread "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" I think it does. As from all I've heard, a well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit Dac whether chip or discrete, run rings around Delta Sigma and all it's variants that are said to be "the best" implementation of it also. R2R Ladder Multibit from what I've heard gives a jump factor, lower mid body and general excitement to the music. Delta Sigma while smooth is unexciting in comparison when doing RedBook. Cheers George |
Did an extended comparison of the N10 and my Mac mini this morning. Final call: N10 wider soundstage with wider image - stretched to fit the soundstage. Image accuracy suffers as a result of that smear. It's warmer then my Mac in the midrange. Not quit as extended up top. If they were ice cream I would call my Mac French Vanilla and the N10 Butterscotch. Low frequency extension on the N10 is extended but seams slightly less taught then my Mac Mini. I felt I got a more neutral accurate portrayal of the recording through the Mac them the N10. I have to say that the N10 only has about 120-140 hours on it and it will likely open up a lot more. Both are excellent and it's a matter of taste. There is a HUGE difference between the two in regards to use and implementation. The N10 is plug, play and enjoy. The Mac is a computer. Settings, opening software, Etc. It's not nearly as easy to use as the N10 which is a simple App on your iPad and go. That said, I do like Jriver personally. I prefer the voice and performance of my Mac Mini over the N10. I'll report again after it gets another few hundred hours on it. |
There is nothing cheap in cost nor performance about the Berk Ref DAC, the Rowland Aeris nor the OverDrive. I haven't heard the Berk yet, but its reputation is excellent. I'm not sure about the Aeris DAC using the AD, I'm sure Guido can comment, but I think you are correct that the AD is used in the ODSE. My ODSE can rub elbows with dacs costing several times its price and I've heard most of them. Just because it's got an R to R doesn't make it, by default, better. So much depends on implementation and design...... |
Interesting review on the $16k Berkeley Reference Multibit Dac, from Absolute Sounds. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series/ Cheers George |
Interesting Mattnshilp, the Berkeley have also now with their Reference Dac has gone back to Multibit as well as the MSB, they were both into Delta Sigma (1 Bit) only a couple f years ago. It will be interesting how they stack up against each other as the EMM Labs is Delta Sigma, all doing RedBook From Berkeley "Alpha DAC Reference Series, use multi-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters - even DAC’s who advertise “native” DSD compatibility." Cheers George |
I am getting another MSB DAC from MSB with a different filter to see if I like that better. Not sure exactly what product it will be. I will keep you all posted. Also should be able to get my hands on the Berkeley Reference DAC shortly as well. I want to let it burn in for a few hundred hours before I borrow it from my neighbor. But it's definitely arriving next Monday to him. I'll compare the Berk and the MSB directly. And I still have the Emm Labs dac2x sound fresh in my mind. Also hoping to get some time tomorrow morning to compare the Aurender n10 and my Mac mini. The N10 has been cooking for about 120 hours. Stay tuned. |
Hi Norm, I agree with you... If you have already evaluated in your own system a well broken in Merrill Veritas, Bel canto Black, Rowland Continuum S2, Daemon, and M825 in your system, and found them all to fall short of your nirvanic goals, then it is probably worth while for you to table bothering with class D technology for a couple of years longer. G. |
Guidocorona, yep, I listen with my ears. I have heard probably 20 different class D amps and can always hear that edge. I own three different amps now. Two are class AB with one running pretty hot, The H-Cat X-10, and the other at about room temperature, the LSA Statement Plus. My other amp, the BMC M2 monoblocks, I have never heard their classification. I continually switch between the H-Cat and the BMCs. The LSA has just become a backup. I was so fascinated by the quad DSD recording in the German Physics/Merging Technologies room that I've forgotten their amps. Whatever they were the sound was great. If it was class D, I will eat my words. |
Norm, as Matt said, today's class D amps can be a far cry from the uninspiring sound of early low end class D devices common during the early part of the last decade. Mind you, class D has the same potential for magic and horridity as any other class of operation... It all depends on underlying active and passive componentry, sophistication of circuit design, execution, quality control, and musical/sonic goals and phylosophy of the designer/engineer. Like with any other class of operation, some companies and designers have been more successful than other companies, and within the same company, some devices have been more successful than other ones in delivering audio nirvana at their respective price points. And some outliers still seem bent to producing an acrid sound... But isn't that true of the industry in general?! It's worth being experimentalists and shed preconceived notions... Unavoidably, some amps we will love, and some we will hate... The important thing is to listen with our ears, and suspend judgement until we can apply our musical evaluation in situ, on a case by case basis, while avoiding the pitfalls of apriori induction logic. Admittedly, there is one thing that a big honking class D amp might have problems achieving.... That is to turn your music room into an oven. G. |
All I can say is that the rooms that have been mentioned were not among those that impressed me. I liked the PS Audio and German Physics rooms most. Both of these in the past did not impress me, but they turned the corner this year. I had one Jeff Rowland first amps in the early '80s. It was very good at that time. His venturing into the class D amps turned me off. |
@wisnon thanks for the information. I'm enjoying the fact that I'm not being hooked up to a computer is one that I love and will probably never give up. I take my best recordings get them up sampled to Dsd and I am very happy with the sound. No power supply crap. No jitter crap. No server noise crap. Im happy with what I have. Kr audio va 900 with this dac is very musical. I listen to my favorite 100 to 150 recordings through the dac in 2xdsd and if I want to listen to others I have an e.a.r CD player. When you look at it. How much time do we have to listen to music? I find well recorded music through a great dac going up to Dsd keeps me pretty happy. Resonessence did a great job. To get better you are going to spend 8k plus easy. Sd cards rock! |
Bill, I heard different reports. I was told that the 211amps had tube damage and was taken out as they had no spares on hand. I read great room feedback using BOTH amps. See some feedback below at Audio circle: My friend entered the room so I followed not overly interested as it wasn't on my "list". In all honesty best sound. This was the setup I heard (211 amps pictured). Stereophile: Stereophile kicks off our feedback with some nice observations from JVS. Backed by mood lighting that continually changed color, albeit not in synch with musical content, LampizatOr North America partnered with a number of other companies to present a most imposing system. Thanks to room treatment from Resolution Acoustics, whose proprietor, Bart Andeer, specializes in custom-made acoustic panels tailored to unique listening environments, the system graced recordings by Frank Sinatra, Gillian Welch, and Beck with a beautifully even gorgeous midrange and lovely warmth. Doing the honors were, when I listened, were Vapor Audio's Perfect Storm White loudspeakers ($45,000/pair), which were debuting in final form after shipping snafus at AXPONA), and Vapor Audio's Forge Aluminum rack ($5999); LampizatOr's Golden Gate Balanced DAC ($19,800), which made its world premiere, and LampizatOr's 211 Balanced mono tube amplifiers ($11,000/pair); a complete complement of Verastarr Grand Illusion cabling plus their Nemesis USB; VH Audio Plasmatron 3-tube power conditioner ($3999); Zen Wave Audio SurgeX SEQ power conditioner ($1999); and Resolution Acoustics room treatment (approx. $43,000 total). Note that Andeer is poised to relaunch Resolution Acoustics with exceedingly lower cost treatment that will make his services far more available to audiophiles who find the best of equipment and intentions sabotaged by nasty nodes of one sort or another. Later in the show, the LamizatOr tube monoblocks were replaced by a big Jeff Rowland solid-state stereo amp. Alas, there were too many rooms I had to cover to allow a return visit. Tyson (Acircle and AVShowrroms raved about the Rowland setup: This room blew my mind. Quite simply put This was the best overall room again for me. I make special mention of the room treatments by Resolution Acoustics because this room had the best bass control, image focus, and dynamics I have heard at RMAF and I know a big part of that is the detailed work Resolution put into the treatment of the room. Other rooms like JTR did a great job of bass management, but didn't quite hit the mark on imaging or other factors. The Vapor system just did everything right. And scale was TREMENDOUS. I really feel like Vapor is the only 'top of the heap' price point company actually doing it right. All the mags are doing their readership a disservice for not touting these for the last 4-5 years. and : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h4aMjm03hk&t=1626 |
Calvin, You are getting your wish! Lots of replies. MusikMike (JazzPesh) of StereoMojo fame tipped me off to Bright Missippi years ago and I have all the Alain TOussaint CDs. LoL I have also been pushing the idea of SD card as the perfect transport for years and this is technical info from an idustry insider who has been waiting for 1TB cards to be reasonably priced for years. That way he can carry his entire library in his top pocket! SD cards are not as noisy as USB sticks and dont constatnatly rewrite data for optimization like HDDs and SSDs. Finally, they are used for high speed digital, so audio reporduction is trivial. My problem with the Invicta Dac is that it is totally Sabre based and I dont think Sabre will ever be SoTA...very, very good, but not SoTA. My opinion only, and no offense. |
Hi Denon1, would love to help you locate a knowledgeable Rowland dealer... I tried to send you a PM, but for some odd reason, was not able to open the PM link at all. Why don't you try to send me a PM instead... Meantime, here is the link to the Rowland distribution network world wide: http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/us/distribution-3.html Guido |
@guidocorona. I saw that. I had a problem with Amazon recently. I ordered it from a third party seller at $275. I didn't know it came from China. They sent the wrong thing. On purpose of course and it took 2 weeks to get my money back and 3 weeks waiting on item. I will let them drop a little more then go in. Lol. I just hate going through the computer audio progressions. I heard my dad on the new bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 today from the sd card. The speaker sounds pretty good. Best bowers I heard so far. There is a cd by Allen toussaint called "The Bright Mississippi" wonderful jazz album. It is one of the best Jazz recordings I have ever heard. It also might be one of the best recorded cd's I've heard in my life. When you hear it in 2xdsd it is absolutely amazing! |
Hi Matt, I have heard and used Aeris only on Rowland electronics this far... A really delicious thing. Hope you have the M925 + Aeris experience in your own music-cave some day. A preamplifier between Aeris and the amps will subtly flavor the whole. Is a "purist" configuration "better" than a "flavored" one? I would not say so per se... It is a matter of personal preference, with a particular DAC, a particular pre, a particular amp, particular speakers, music, cave, mood, and particular strain of misfolded Audiophrenia Gravis prion particles infecting you. Saluti, G. |
@mattnslip. Thanks for the reply. I guess when we have huge libraries of music it's like we skip over things we like. With the sd cards I got the 110 best and well recorded albums in my collection and I'm enjoying them in dsd quality. They sound wonderful. I don't have to worry about the server. The power supply to the server. I don't have to worry about cpu noise, interference or other stuff. I get the album. I have it up sample by korg and put it on a card and I am done. Plus the sound is sublime. You here deep into the recording and it has an excellent soundstage. Detail and layering are excellent. Transparency is class a. I'm very happy with it. This company is owned by the brother of the guy that developed the ess sabre chip. |
Thanks Calvin. Someone a while ago, maybe you (sorry don't remember who) brought up the Invicta and Mirus dacs. I read up on them and they look awesome. I never had the opportunity to hear one but I was intrigued by their design and parts utilization. I'll bet they sound great. Thanks for the input! |
I use the resonessence mirus dac. It allows me to not be hooked up to a computer. I use sdxc sad cards 2-256 gb. I got 100 of my best recordings up sampled to 2xdsd using korg audiogate. The sound is sublime. Deep soundstage excellent transparency. I never really wanted to be hooked to a server or computer. This allows me not to be. The sd cards are another approach to this high resolution music that's not talked about. I only get it done for the Best albums. Anyone reading this you ought to give it a try. No one ever responds to my posts here but if you have an opportunity to listen to this give it try. |
Guido- having previously thought that even the mighty Aeris sounded best with a preamp, I can understand the thought of requiring gain from a preamp. But after hearing Jeff Rowland's voicing system sans preamp I have a different attitude. I believe that there are certain products that are very specifically constructed and deigned to sound their absolute best with their own mating gear and can skip the added gain from a preamp when doing so. Rowland, Ayon and MSB come to mind. I believe that these products truly sound their best when mated with their purpose designed sister amplifiers. Impedance, gain, etc are all perfectly matched to eliminate the need for a preamp completely. If not mating them with like manufacturer, a preamp permits the user to integrate those wonderful components into a mixed system and maintain their magical performance. I know you tried to tell me this 2 years ago. But I just wasn't ready to listen. Grins. |
Grateful, I use no preamp at all, and am as happy as a clam *grins!* Believe it or not, my speakers are not high efficiency horns by any stretch of the imagination.... Die muzik are multi-triver 91dB speakers with a wilding input impedance dipping into the nether regions. I use a Rowland Aeris DAC directly into 430W Rowland M925 monos... No, I am not suffering even a little bit from line stage withdrawl symptoms. G. |
10-17-15: GratefulThanks for your input, Grateful. I certainly don't question your experience and your observations, but I would respectfully disagree with the last sentence in the quote. Notwithstanding the fact that a lot of audiophiles believe similarly. While it is true that "pollution" introduced upstream is in many cases amplified more than pollution introduced downstream (but not always; see the next paragraph), the same is true with respect to the signal. And what matters is the relation between the two, not their individual magnitudes. Furthermore, while the signal level at the source may in many cases be smaller than further downstream, that will often not be true in the case of digital sources in particular, with the preamp's output signal in such cases often and probably usually being at a lower level than its input signal. And even in the case of vinyl playback, where of course extremely low level signals are present at the output of the source, I would comment that from a technical standpoint amplification of very low level signals is not by any means necessarily more problematical than the task of a power amplifier, or the task of a speaker in converting the large amounts of power it receives into sound. The technical challenges in each case are certainly different, but I don't think any conclusions about which are likely to be more critical are supported by rationale that is based on the magnitudes of the signals that are involved. Contrary, as I say, to what a lot of audiophiles seem to believe. Just my $.02. Regards, -- Al |
Charles1dad and Matt, I admit I have failed to read through this post but looks like there is a discussion going on active preamps... Over the years I have gone active to passive back to active and my 2 cents are... The less "circuitry" in(terfering) with the virgin signal is certainly a good thing when looking for the pure sound, however, having said that, source amplification is VERY minimal and unless one has extremely efficient speakers (i.e. horns) amplification (i.e. pre-amplification) is generally always required... Unfortunately, in our 'sport' money reserves are expected to be deep (by the manufacturers) and it is no secret that once in the stratosphere, 99% of cost increase gets you 1% improvement. As such, what I have found is... The more you can afford (all else being equal) upstream gets you the best purity. In other words, your creme de la creme should be (in decreasing order) source, pre, mains, speakers - of course you can add cables in-between each one and voltage-cleanup. I might add, this idea does make physical sense, as as the signal strength is the smallest (upstream) improvements and/or pollution is only amplified downstream. In my own system I found I did like passive preampfification best until I found what I have now (Atma-Sphere MP-3) and my only upgrade that I still want now is going to a MP-1 (top of the Atma-Sphere line). A Top Tier pre will enhance dynamics in a PURE fashion - something a passive pre just cannot do. Hope this may help |
Hi Matt, yes i'm aware of DXD's original purpose as editing software in the mastering process. Though FIM for one have taken that a lot further & record, edit & master their cd's in DXD onto extremely pure precision-cut silver discs. Of course that is down-converted to PCM & is playable on RBCD players. But my ears tell me the sound is stunning. Very undigital as I imagine DSD would sound. My Vitus gear obviously helps. XRCD24 discs are also amazing..even my parents who have no clue about audiophilia noticed the difference. Obviously native double or quad DSD should be superior given a great DSD dac like Mike's Lampi, but I definitely feel like I want for nothing with the vast number of audiophile RBCD formats including DXD, XRCD, K2HD, SHM & Mofi 24kt gold cd's. Plus I love handling the media, reading the liner notes & spinning the disc...something you can't do with downloads. |
