A Story about a Defective Signature Platinum

Mijostyn, Have you considered Balsa wood for the arm wand?  I am not sure why you say your tonearm is prone to a high effective mass.  Can you explain or is the reason for it is part of the patented idea? Certainly there are a variety of materials that per se would lend to a low or manageable effective mass.

The discussions I have had about organic fibres has always shown that Chemical is required to produce the impregnating resin.

My time spent researching the use of Mycelium has now shown that Soy Based Resins are used to produce composite sandwich panels.

There might just be a Organic Structural Material on the horizon that will take over the role of Carbon Fibre, Kevlar and Metals.

@pindac Thank you for the the suggestion. I had never heard of mycelium used in this way. I found an article which you may find interesting:

@terry9  My ongoing investigation of a modern approach to Organic Material that has properties suitable as a Structure and able to be used for Engineering purposes has lead me to Mycelium (Fungi Roots), this advancing Tech', is worthwhile familiarising oneself with, in some cases, it is already an unknown of household product, used as structural parts in furniture.

Being somebody who likes Bullet Proof Board, the Mycelium Bricks being produced are also claimed to be Bullet Proof. 

Time to learn the Damping/Dissipation properties? 

@lewm 

The only relationships to the Rabco are it is an electrically driven tangential tracker.

The current design is the first iteration and in some areas the materials are not established, like what we are going to use for the tonearm wand. Functionally we want it to run by remote control. It will go to the beginning of the record and cue it. At the end of the record it will pick itself up and return to the resting position. The drive is unaffected by level. We will use scaled down versions of the same electronics used to control the robots. Two problems remain. It is going to be a heavy arm, the question is how heavy. It might be heavy beyond all practicality which I doubt. It will certainly be too heavy for many turntables. The last question is how much. We have to get a rough idea of materials cost. Some of the arm is very new technology and the method of making some parts has yet to be decided. The arm might have to be priced beyond practicality. How many people are going to by a $400,000 tonearm? I would like to keep it under $50,000, the lower the better. 

Initially we plan to build 10 units. If they are well received we will look into building larger batches. 

The tonearm wand is pivoted in both horizontal and vertical planes. The vertical plane uses a needle bearing very similar to the 4 Points. The horizontal bearing is a very fine ball bearing race without a lubricant. It is limited to two degrees in either direction. The drive will be trained to lead the arm. It will remain perfectly tangential plus/minus a few seconds. There is no need to have more horizontal freedom. It will be neutral balance and the vertical bearing will hopefully be at or near record level. We have not decided on how to trim azimuth yet. We are hoping to be able to control VTA by remote control. We may have to knock off a lot of things to keep the price down. 

@terry9 

Patents are not much assurance that you won't be copied but it will be very hard to reverse engineer the arm. There are certain proprietary issues very difficult to figure out. This is very new tech. My son in law was showing me a CAD picture of his companies new device and my brain immediately flipped to TONEARM!

All of my great ideas did not get very far. One is actually marketed today. My partner, the one with the money got tired of paying patent attorneys. 10 year later up pops my design. This one is not going to be a huge money maker but it might lead to other audio related devices and electronics and give my son in law an opportunity to start his own company.   

My impression (as a patent holder) is that patents ain't what they used to be. But I understand your position - I'm ambivalent about giving up the best of my own developments. In my case, it's probably just nostalgia.

Sounds like a modern digitized Rabco with better everything.

@terry9 

I can not discuss fine details until our patents are established. My son in law is a robotics engineer. His company makes the robots used in chip manufacture. His robots have to move in nanometer increments. We have designed what will be the the finest tonearm you can buy. It is a tangential tracker and the only mechanical connection between the arm and the greater world is the signal wire.

@mijostyn  I wasn't talking about the Reed system, I was talking about mine. Wood or wood-like composite all the way. Similar speeds of sound in each material reduce reflections.

So what is your own thing?

@rauliruegas 

For the substances in equal caliber that might be true but given the Sapphires much larger diameter and tapered form I highly doubt it for the tonearms. Don't worry I'm not about to buy a Sapphire arm. I have my own thing going and you are never going to believe it! 

@terry9 

Schroder solves that problem supplying cartridge mounting plates of three different masses. Generally tonearms like the Reeds that supply a range of wands have an additional connection at the wand's base, so in reality they are no different than SME style removable head shells. 

@mijostyn Interesting cartridge connection scheme. Very similar to my own solution, except that instead of the cartridge on a plate, the cartridge is on its own wand, so that the cartridge can be matched to the appropriate wand. Also, VTA, VTF, Azimuth are all incorporated into the wand, so there’s no setup required - other than doing and undoing 4 machine screws and the cartridge clips.

Re sapphire - rigidity I’ll give you, speed of sound I’ll give you, resonance doesn’t seem at all likely. The sapphire tubes I have ring beautifully - i.e. resonate.

I was going to try sapphire until the pampas grass turned out so well.

@mijostyn  : "  in terms of stiffness and resonance.  " the EPA 100MK2 is even better.

R.

I found visiting the Reed Website a useful experience. 

The assessments offered by Reed on a variety of wood types used for wands are backed up with a data.of measurements. 

Their statement made about P'holz,certainly does not contain the term, 'suppose'.

I see no reason to question their findings. 

At present P'holz does not lend itself to being a Wand on the Tonearm I have adopted and am mainly using. 

P'holz does lend itself for usage on a Tonearm I am familiar with using, and the demo's received to date, far surpass the Metal on Metal interfaces of a earlier guise.

I though the fibers were resin impregnated. The Schroder system does not have a head shell. It uses a mounting plate for the cartridge which makes it very easy to align. There are no additional connections. You have to pull the clips every time you change cartridges. There are not any connections at the bottom of the arm either. The outer sheath and shield are stripped back to expose the tonearm wires, a stunt you could do with the Universal if you so desired. 

@pindac 

Technically, the only near perfect tonearm wand does not exist, it can only be imagined.  I suppose Kuzma's Sapphire is as close as you can get in terms of stiffness and resonance. 

No Worries over here in the UK where many folk in the East of England are very German in their origins genetically.

Great Big Foreheads are an Anglo Saxon trait. 

To Americans, the word “Panzer” is synonymous with “tank”, owing to WW2 history, regardless of the true meaning in German. My guess is that the word panzerholz may be copyrighted such that some other manufacturer of a similar product is driven to call it tankwood. Using this material in a tonearm wand necessarily results in a rather high effective mass. So it’s not the best for high compliance cartridges, if you worry about that issue.

The Reed Statement that the P'holz is a near perfect material for a Tonearm Wand is one that I have not seen before.

Interesting that the Company refer to it as Tankwood, as this is the name that Kaiser Speakers have adopted for it in their literature. I have not seen it referred to as this name in other places. (Panzer in German is Armoured in English).

I made it known before I encouraged a Wood Wand user to try out a P'holz Wand and they have not looked back.

I also have been demo'd a Tonearm where P'holz was being used to produce the parts usually that have a metal to perform a function. The P'holz version was noticeably improved and notable for the noise that seemingly had disappeared.

Metal on Metal interfaces do have a audible signature when used at the critical places in a Analogue Source, maybe even the metal body of a Cart' coupled to a Metal Headshell is also a contribution. I have seen AT and others have models with a embedded damping/dissipation material on a earlier model Headshell to transform energies and later models have the Diamond Hard Coating (Technihard) to transform energies.

@pindac  Looked up the links, thank you. The researchers used pampas grass fibres, interestingly. These seem to have been harvested from the stalks, much denser than what I used, The stalks are about 15% the density of a fibre bundle, and more rigid than balsa of the same density - I was going to try balsa next, after the pampas grass experiment failed - except that it didn't. That's evolution for you.

So I use pampas grass in the same way that nature intended: as a longitudinal whole - the same reason that premium Japanese walking sticks are made from biologicals which have been forced to grow in a certain shape - say a walking stick. Or so I have read.

Wonder why no-one is using elastomerics inside a pampas grass matrix? Well, we are.

@pindac  Ah yes, Panzerholz. It's the best commercially available material that I know of. See, for example, the Reed website. Researchers in Europe, (Netherlands? Germany?) like GLARE, an acronym for Glass Laminate Aluminum Reinforced Epoxy, which is also interesting. But I suspected that biology might have solved the problem of stiffness without resonance a few million yearrs ago - and then I noticed pampas grass in the front yard. Hmmn ...

Thanks for the links.

@mijostyn Unfortunately, there's not much room to shape the wand. Evolution shaped these stalks and constructed them in a way which is pretty much optimal for the task. Boring out the middle would eliminate the mechanical integrity, as would shaving down one end. The only alternative is to put a spacer inside the prism at one end, but this eliminates the strength and rigidity of the closely coupled triple.

I don't like to compromise performance, so I don't use head shells. Besides that, my Mayajima Zero mono lacks the ultimate refinement of the Koetsu, so I don't use it much, and now that I have the Epoch, won't be using the Koetsu so much.

The bearing end of the tonearm is a plate of Panzerholz, which is attached to the air bushing plate (2024 alloy aluminum) with 4 machine screws. The bushing plate is attached to the air bushing (20mm NewWay) with a copious amount of elastomeric glue (M1). Counterweight is silver on a #10 steel machine screw.

@terry9 

I would taper it like your other wands drilling out the inside so the is almost a constant wall thickness making it a little thicker at the back. I would put a Schroeder like head shell arrangement at the front. What are you doing at the back end of the arm, bearings and such?

@terry9 I recall when the individual who first presented on Forums, Panzerholz as a materials with attractive properties, the response from certain types was contempt prior to investigation, the product was New, pretty much unknown/unused in Audio and was shot down. 10-12 Years on the discussion on it as a material is mainstream. It is a topic on all forums across the Globe and Manufacturers of Audio Devices in a selection of Countries are using it as Panzerholz, or using it with a 'in house' name given for the same material.

Evidence is common to show Organic Origin Materials combined with Synthetics produce materials that are ideal to function in a particular role where mechanical /structural properties are required.

https://www.racefans.net/2022/12/13/super-formula-confirms-introduction-of-new-bio-composite-chassis-for-2023/#:~:text=Dubbed%20the%20'SF23'%2C%20the,as%20hemp%2Dderived%20materials%2C%E2%80%9D

My investigations show you are not the only one investigating the properties of Pampas Grass.

The Link shows it is being identified for its suitability to be a sustainable constituent in the make up of a composite. I think that idea should ring a bell.

Another White Paper I discovered has been impregnating the Stem in a solution diluted using Alcohol as 50% of the mixture. There is additionally a description of a usage of a Vacuum Chamber and a 12 Hour Dry Time of 80 Celsius. 

When I was looking into a Cactus Needle Armature, I discovered a White Paper, that I had a friend investigate. The outcome being they were convinced that the Properties of the Cactus Needle would be satisfactory to function as a Cantilever.

I have a donor Cart' on standby to receive a Cactus Needle and the technicians own design for a form of a Styli.

If I were to attempt to experience a alternative Cantilever from a Brand, where the option is Cactus Needle or Bamboo, The cost will be between £3K - £7K. I am much more settled with the quote I have received for the work to be undertaken.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338440494_Characterization_of_Natural_Fibers_from_Cortaderia_Selloana_Grass_Pampas_as_Reinforcement_Material_for_the_Production_of_the_Composites

I will take a wild punt and suggest a Composite with a Organic Origin such as Pampas Grass, which is extremely easy to grow (energy efficient) in multiple environments. Will become a constituent in a product, where Lives are dependent on the products  reliability.

It will not be a surprise to learn it is being used in the mainstream industries before 2030. Going Carbon Neutral is demanding this type of research and producing alternatives to full synthetics products. 

Let the naysayers, who are with little foresight than the seeing of the Spectacles on their noses, spue out their protests to such ventures of ingenuity. 

@pindac   So glad that you, at least, are interested.  I'll keep you posted - been looking to see what it would take to modify an old pressure cooker.

@terry9 

Stand by your intentions, this is not a commercial item, it is a personal expression, more in keeping with a artistic flair applied to producing a tool. 

It is the result of a creative thinking from a 'what if' attitude.

From my perspective the aesthetic of the design is not to WOW!, it is much more akin to the ideal "function over form"  

Or a even more modern ideal “eliminate all unimportant opportunities.”

Design and Art are both quite capable of being stimulants at causing opposing thoughts to be aired. 

Very recently I started to pass by a Office Block Main Entrance in London, that has as the main feature of attention being a exposed Concrete Column, left to remain in its roughest of condition.

I get it, in the sense the designer wanted to show a snippet of honesty, in relation to what is a usually concealed very important part of the structure. 

I also don't get what a Multi Hundreds of Million Building is doing with such a unavoidable Carbuncle a few feet within its main entrance door.

I am easily prompted to join a discussion where opposing thoughts are stimulated. 

 I look forward to learning about your thoughts on a version produced by utilising a Vacuum Chamber.  

From 09:01, on the 12th, "Pampas grass can make a great tonearm wand. Ugly yes - I’m working on that." Sorry for sharing my prototypes, but I thought others might be interested.

@terry9 

View this as a challenge. You have an idea which you have tested with a prototype now make it look good!

@terry9 

Function and aesthetics always run together. The trick is making a functional object aesthetically pleasing. What will happen with an arm like that is everyone will think it looks like (insert any appropriate four letter word here) and have absolutely no interest in it regardless of how well it performs. Experimenting like this is a fun thing to do. If it is only for yourself and you do not care what it looks like then that is totally your prerogative. However, if I were an audiophile friend of yours, visited and saw that I would privately think you were nuts. What you see effects what you hear. 

Depends on your aesthetic. If looking pretty concerns you most, then pretty you will have, but performance will be hit and miss - a commonplace in the audio world. If, however, sounding good concerns you most, you will start with good sound and evolve towards pretty. If you have nothing better to do, or to spend on, that is.

@terry9 ,

Being a pioneer is fine and dandy, but there is an aesthetic element that you have to pay attention to. 

@pindac  Thank you for the kind words. And far more, thank you for your thoughtful suggestions.

I am running a linear tracker, so the horizontal effective mass is the mass of the whole assembly. This is about 200 g - the mass of the air bushing alone is 50 g, and then there's the counterweight and cartridge. You can see how important it is for me to keep the rigidity high and the mass low. This precludes densification for my application.

So I opted for a different approach. At first I thought of a foam core surrounded by fibre and epoxy, but then I weighed some pampas grass stalks and found them to be little heavier than foam, and just as non-resonant. Further, when laminated, they are quite rigid on their own, and form a constraining layer to constrict the epoxy. Orient the fibre as a winding, and throw in some elastomeric glue, and the result sings.

Vacuum chamber is a very good idea to increase rigidity and consistency. I'll try that on the next iteration. Thanks!

@terry9 Love the images, you are a pioneer, there is a Tonearm Thread on Lenco Heaven where concept Arm Wands are appearing, It would be great to see the Pampas Grass Version used on the DIY TA Design in that thread. 

I have been interested in producing my own version of a Resin Impregnated  Densified Wood. The idea of more orientations of the cross grain has been the stimulus.

I do believe with the correct viscosity resin, the Pampas Grass placed into a Vacuum Chamber at a first stage of applying the resin could produce a resin impregnated wand. Especially with the correct viscosity for a resin selected.

Resin Impregnation is a big subject today, it is a Science and there is plenty of White Papers to be found on the subject, it is all good reading when the correct content is discovered. 

As there is no need to compress, this as a concept does seem doable, and the post Heat Treatment should also be easily achieved.

An individual I know was putting their Oilites in a Vacuum Chamber with a Lubricant of their choice and was relubricating both New and 30+ Year old Oilites. The process was kept going until the micro bubbles developing and separating from the Oilite was almost ceased. 

@mijostyn You don't understand. It's a proof of concept. In any case, it's a triangular prism, not a cylinder.

@terry9 

You can't have that mess in your system. You need to give it to someone with a lath to turn then dip it in clear acrylic. 

@jperry Please post a picture here or on your system page. Thanks.

Done. Panzerholz and Pampas grass.

I live in Chicago and have been buying from Music Direct for around 15 years.  Their CS used to be excellent.  About a year ago I purchased as Technics 1500 Direct Drive and had a problem.  They were pretty frosty but I finally showed up at their place unannounced, tt in tow, and an hour later got my problem resolved.  Happy ending, but it isn’t the same company.  Glad they ultimately came through for the OP

@terry9 

Please post a picture here or on your system page. Thanks.

Sort of. Several stalks bonded together with elasomeric glue with an orthogonal epoxy laminate. Lacking resonance altogether and stiff as carbon fibre epoxy. The exotic high-tech wands look rather primitive to me now.

@terry9 

Pampas Grass?? You embedding it in resin?

@mulveling My wife gave me an Epoch 3 for the last birthday, and I can say that it’s better in every respect than my diamond rosewood (out of the box vs 1400 hours with minimal wear at 1000). Tonearm wands pampas grass and panzerholz, respectively. Epoch / pampas grass slightly clearer, slightly better dynamics, far better tracking, with consummate smoothness. Don’t know how much of that is the wand, but pretty sure not all of it, especially not tracking

Pampas grass can make a great tonearm wand. Ugly yes - I’m working on that. Let me know if you are interested.

@mulveling 

I would think the Air Tight is very representative. Same designer and builder. MSL probably makes more cartridges for other companies than they make for themselves. I would think that it is valuable and will soldier on with Matsudaira san's absence. 

@rauliruegas 

Yes, the Atlas SL is a more detailed cartridge with a better sense of the third dimension assuming you have a phono stage that can handle it's very low output. Most people should stick with the regular Atlas which I have not heard. The Signature Platinum will match up with just about any phono stage. 

Dear @mulveling : The Atlas Lambda SL is way better and with no concern about.

The friend in question has heard high-end Lyra’s at his dealer, and they’re definitely not to his preference. He’s looking for something that hits a middle ground between that and Koetsu, perhaps more to the Koetsu side. He really likes my Blue Lace but that’s out of the running now, sadly. Hasn’t heard MSL yet, but I think he’s pretty well sold on the Platinum doing something along those lines.

I have an Air Tight PC-7 here, but don't think that's very representative of the MSL line. I really like it for what it is, though!

Dear @mulveling : The Atlas Lambda SL is way better and with no concern about.

R.

Well, good on MoFi / MusicDirect for following through and doing the right thing! Even though it took a fair threshold of blowback to get their butts moving lol. I remain unimpressed by the "value add" offered by official high-end cartridge importers / distributors, but at least it’s nonzero.

My next (somewhat related) concern is how much longer we can expect service (even if just a 50% trade in allowance) & production from MSL. Do they have a cartridge master heir in place? Koetsu is now down with questionable future (RIP Fumihiko Sugano). I’ve heard some concerning rumblings about Benz / Lukaschek. Shelter seems to be winding way down - I couldn’t even get a 901 Mk 3 when I wanted to order one. A LOT of the old guard cartridge masters are at "that age". I have a friend interested in an MSL Platinum and this is a key concern of his.

Fairytale ending in a good way.

As a final note on this thread I am pleased to report that MoFi did reimburse me for repair of the Platinum Signature cartridge in full.

@ml8764ag 

Those magnifications are way beyond any lens like that. The other problem is you would never be able to hold the phone steady enough to get a picture or even get a small item in field. 

If you go to my virtual system page pull up the picture of my wall cabinet. To the left is a desk. On it you can see the horizontal microscope and the lighting source in their parked positions.  

@mijostyn … thanks for the info…was hoping there was some magic lens you could attach to your phone.  Definitely could pay for itself for the right cases. 

@lewm 

They are exactly equal and the cartridge sounds fine and the gain is exactly the same. (Transimpedance) 

@rauliruegas 

I missed that. The wife and I were away for our 35th wedding anniversary. I left the computer home, more important fish to fry, if you know what I mean:-) 

@mijostyn  : Thank's again and if you look in this page of the thread I already posted those pictures.

R.

The quoted spec is always DC resistance, even though we sometimes speak of the internal DC resistance as “impedance”. So if the factory spec is 1.4 ohms and 1.8 ohms was measured across the coils, that is a real deviation from the factory spec. However, at such low values, I’m not sure there’s any reason to be concerned. So long as the readings are equal in each channel.