A Hidden "Feature" of the Cornwall IV

My Cornwall IV’s arrive today!!  I ordered a Zen Torii MKIV with Zbit...20 week wait though, so temporarily I’m getting a Yamaha A S701 to spin discs and play vinyl.  Picked up a mint Sony XA5400es fully Modwrighted with NOS tubes and a spare drive for $2200:). Yeah...poor house but oh what fun 🤩 

Congrats @dave_b Can't wait to hear what you think.

Oz

My neighbor is thinking about ordering a C8....longer wait for that 😳

I agree the Cornwalls have been more illuminating of component changes and positioning than any speaker I’ve owned. It’s hard to make them sound “bad” as they pair nicely with almost any amp you put on them. But their capabilities have far exceeded my hopes with willingness to experiment with positioning and amps. I’ve cycled through some of the “usual suspects” recommended by reviewers and fellow owners including Luxman(590AXII), Naim(Atom and Nova), Carver(Crimson), DAC (King Maraschinos), Abbingdon Music Research(AM-777), Linear Tube Audio, and Don Sachs Valhalla. They all partner well and the Cornwalls seem to be more agnostic than most in terms of amp topology. That being said, all amps except the Valhalla were a set of trade offs and compromises with the AMR amp surprisingly being my second favorite. The Sachs Valhalla, though, checks every box on the checklist and makes the Cornwalls absolutely disappear. I stopped posting (for the most part) years ago as almost every recommendation I have acted on falls tragically short of my expectations. This is the first amp that shattered the glass ceiling of what I thought was possible...and at a price that in the world of high end audio is a steal.

Decware is an equally glorious amp manufacturer that is made for Cornwall’s!

Why did I start reading this thread?! I almost bought Cornwall lVs last year now I'm really wanting to once again.I'll live vicariously through you guys for now. I suspect those little Decware amps will be an excellent match.

The craftsmanship of the Cherry Cornwall IV’s is just sumptuous!  My wife actually loves them...and those metallic grills are sooo cool 😎

Back in the 1978-1982 time frame I worked at some high end audio dealers in the DC area, all who were Klipsch dealers.  I never owned them, but really enjoyed listening to them, being in one of the "high end" listening rooms, driven by the best amps of the day, to me the high frequencies were never a problem.  I sold a LOT of Heresy's and Cornwall's, and probably a pair of Klipschorn's a month, fewer LaScala's.  Not a single customer who bought them asked about returning them, or trading them in on something different.

When "Mr. Covid" allows, my son-in-law and I are planning a pilgrimage to our "local" audio store (2-3 hours away) and I hope to audition the Forte IV, never heard that speaker, sounds enticing.

Dave_b

I would love to hear what you think of the Cornwall IV once you get them setup and broken in. Coming from or still owing the 802 D3 would be an interesting contrast. 

I have owned B&W in the past but have only heard a song or two on the Cornwall IV. I need to give them a real demo sometime soon. 

I, too, would love to hear the Forte IV.  I sold my Forte IIIs and they were wonderful.  I would have kept them forever but I need the money and space for the Cornwall IVs. 

I've been into high end audio for over 30 years.  I have 2 large systems in my home with Harbeth M40.1s, Sterling LS3/6 speakers.  Last week after watching and reading several reviews including Steve Guttenberg's review, I purchased the Cornwall IV.  I've never been a fan of Klipsch speakers and to be honest the last time I seriously listened to one was back in the late 80's.  When I listened to them back then, I thought they were great rock speakers but bright and piercing.  It could have been the components that they were paired with or the set up but that was my opinion back then.

Fast forward to last week, I received the Cornwall IV and replaced my Sterling LS 3/6 BBC stand mounted speakers in my basement system.  The rest of the components in the system include a Rega P10 turntable with Apheta 3 MC cartridge, Luxman EQ-500 vacuum tube phono stage, Etherregen with OCXO clock and LPS, Aurender N100H streamer/server, Innous Phoenix USB reclocker, Bryston BDA-3 DAC soon to be replaced by a Holo May KTE, Van Alstine FET Valve CF vacuum tube preamp and 600R hybrid power amp.

The Cornwall IV are nothing like what my previous perception of Klipsch speakers has been over the past 30 years.   My Cornwalls only have about 125 hours on them but I already love their sound.  These speakers are very sensitive to toe in and I think I have them dialed in to my preferences.  The highs are not bright at all, and the midrange is smooth and natural.  Piano, woodwinds, guitar all have a natural, like like sound quality.  Voices are excellent and so is imaging.  I have a REL S5 subwoofer that is currently turned off while I'm breaking in the Cornwalls. I don't feel the need to turn on the sub but I'll try it after my speakers are broken in.  Of course, dynamics and bass impact are startlingly impressive.  These speakers are not just great rock speakers that play loud, they are excellent with any genre.  In fact, like someone else mentioned, they sound great at low volume levels.   

My question to Cornwall IV owners is how many hours of break in do you feel it took to get them to sound their best?

I thought they really came into their own after the 200 hour mark. And I agree with your perception of these great speakers. They are not only loud, brash rock speakers, but can do well with any genre of music. People that turn up their noses at the Cornwall IV don’t have a clue.

Oz

@buddy,

I was considering a Yamaha AS3000, as I like Japanese SS amps, but heard a refresh was coming. I waited but nothing happened and gave up, went shopping, and discovered the Luxman. I bet your 2200 will rock with Cornwalls.

@smatsui ,  Wonderful backstory and review.  Thank you!  

PS-- Like me (and Ozzy) Klipsch must be paying you.  Unlike Ozzy and me, your checks must be larger than ours!

@buddy and @jet88,   I have not heard the Cornwall IVs with the Yammy or Lux, but I bet both would be great.  I didn't have great luck pairing my Forte IIIs with Class D--just too lean, clean, and sterile.  I loved them with a Creek integrated.    

I would expect that the Yamaha and Luxman would be sublime, based on my experience of how the loudspeaker puts out so much of what you put in and those amps are very well made and musical.  

Well....the Cornwall IV’s are astounding!  I’m dumbfounded actually at just how good they portray music...they are truly my Holy Grail !!  Such a large, fully fleshed out soundstage with a rich vibrant tonality brimming with tension and dynamics but never sounding bloated or less than incisive.  Oodles of unforced yet solidly rendered details that draw you into the soundscape.  They image in such a way that you can actually believe that the musicians are in the room, occupying the space right in front of you...I can forget the walls are there:()

BTW..current system is a Krell K300i with an MIT HD AC2 power cord, a Yamaha S CD2100 SACD/CD player/DAC with a Transparent Gen 5 Reference power cord.  Cables are MIT HD50 balanced interconnects and MIT HD60 Biwires with Oracle spades.  

Listening to Hellbound On My Trail songs of Robert Johnson on Telarc.  These Cats are in my Freaking room man !!

Dave_B,

interesting, are these intended to be a replacement for your 802 or a second system? Just curious.

I have only heard a few songs on the Cornwall iv. I am intrigued enough to go demo them in the next few weeks (local shop just got them in). 
My reservations came in after not liking the Forte III at all. They seemed very average. But the Cornwall seemed much better. 

These replaced the 802D3’s!  Demo’s at stores are problematic at best.  Too many variables...use Music Direct for 60 Day trial!  It’s the only way to be sure.

Oh BTW...the Cornwall’s are life changing!! They will give you whatever you feed them with...they will not be the limiting factor.  For sub 32hz range I use an REL S2!

dave_b,
Awesome that you are loving the Cornwalls, and the Krell.

What speakers did you have before the Cornwalls?

Also, if you can, do you think you are getting a bigger sound quality improvement from the speaker switch to Cornwall, or from the amp switch to Krell?  Maybe an impossible question to answer but perhaps you have thoughts on it?

Dave_B

thanks I trust your input. My local shop is a dealer so I will do business with them, no worries.
Just trying to understand the caliber of these speakers. I have owned B&Ws before. I value dynamics above all other things, and soundstage width followed by detail. I have two JL E112 I would be high passing.

@james633 They deliver what you seek in spades!

Dear @jbhiller  : Good analog front end you own. Even that you are a MUSIC player and that already own the IV could be interesting for any MUSIC lover to read this:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/looking-for-my-final-pair/post?postid=2138594#2138594


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@kren0006. Speakers I’ve owned?  Oh boy...there’s a list 😬. 
Dunlavy SC IV
Wilson w/p 6’s
B&W 801Nautilus, 802D2 and 802D3 plus several others
Magnapan 3.6’s
ML Odyssey 
Dynaudio C4’s
Totem Wind, Forest SE
Focal Kanta no. 2
others...Kef, Monitor Audio etc..
  
Cornwall IV’s 

Amplification too long but primarily Krell and ARC

CORNWALL IV’s deliver what I have always sought, which is realistic dynamics, tone, imaging and scale without limitation on volume level, whether it be moderate or loud.  Unforced but solid/realistic detail!  A sense of having the performers right in front of me...boy do they deliver!!  

@rauliruegas ,  what speakers would sound as great at these but would meet your “objective” thresholds?  I’m curious. 

My Cornwall IV’s convey music as if they were created from a genetic crossing of the Dunlavy SC V’s, Wilson Watt/Puppy 6’s and Totem Winds.  Great scale, tremendous definition, excellent dynamics & contrast, spooky imaging (hard to believe but true) and an unraveling of low level detail with exceptional clarity...intelligibility is best I’ve heard.  All of this in an unforced manner!

Dear @jbhiller : Obviously the ones I own but there are several other speakers that fulfill MUSIC needs as : Soundlabs, Cornwall IV with integrated supertweeters and a pair of self powered subwoofers crossing at 80-90hz as the Cornwall too, any top two way monitors coming from Focal, Sonus Faber, Paradigm, etc, integrated with subs, Tannoy, ATC active speakers and many more.

Horns are very good performers inside its frequency limits, were the rule in the vintage times with JBL,Altec,Klipsh and the like and we loved even with its frequency limitations and other " problems ".

I like to listen MUSIC with the lower distortions I can get, any kind of distortions and with a wide frequency response.

Those woofers in the IV that crossover 700hz and that handled frequencies up to around 800hz develops very high InterModulationDistortions that helps to increment the speaker TotalHarmonicDistortion levels. I suggested Dave that the IV be crossing at 80hz-90hz to a pair subs to avoid totally those kind of high distortion levels.

I think that each speaker driver in any speaker design must be handled frequency in its linear driver frequency range.

The excursions in a woofer at 30hz-50hz are to high to handled at the same time frequencies at 80hz and beyond it.

R.

REL Set-Up Made Simple!

RELs are not traditional subwoofers, but true sub-bass systems. A REL is designed to augment the performance of “full range” speaker systems, to provide linear response down to below 12 Hz (Studio III, -6 dB down at 9 Hz). Therefore, for the moment, set aside everything you’ve been taught about subwoofers and how they are integrated into a stereo or theater system. RELs set- up and position differently than other subwoofers. A REL will take advantage of physics and room acoustics to provide deep pressurization as no other sub-woofer can. It’s important that you bring to the set-up process a willingness to do things a little differently in order to obtain these superior results. The end result of your labors will be an utterly seamless integration of true deep bass to a sound system, regardless of the main speaker’s low bass capability.
Two Things Before You Begin
A. It is helpful to know that you will almost always connect the REL to the input on the rear panel labeled “Hi Level.” This connection is made using the supplied 34’ 10” (10 meters) cable, the bare leads of which connect to the speaker output terminals of the power amplifier. The easy and foolproof connection at the REL is done with a Neutrik Speakon connector. The purpose of connecting to the speaker output terminals is one of the unique secrets of REL’s success. By connecting to the high level input on the REL from the amplifier, you build forward the sonic signature of your main system, including the tonal balance and timing cues of the entire electronics chain. In this way, the REL is fed the exact signal that is fed to the main speakers.
B. When possible, the REL should be placed in one of the corners behind the speakers. Remember, we are dealing with true LOW bass pressurization with RELs, not the mid- bass that most competitors settle for. Low bass pressurization below 40Hz is best derived from corner placement, where the most linear and efficient low bass can be produced.
Basic set-up should take no more than ten to fifteen minutes to accomplish once connected.
Connecting
High-level connection, using the enclosed cable with the Neutrik Speakon connector, is always the first choice. By connecting to the amplifier’s speaker outputs the sonic signature of the entire amplification chain is folded into the signal for the sub, thereby keeping timing and timbre cues consistent. In other words, the signal sent to the REL is exactly the same signal sent to the speakers, allowing for seamless integration. This connection can be made without affecting the performance of the amplifier because the sub’s amplifier input impedance is 100,000 ohms. This scheme also avoids adding any detrimental effects by not interposing any additional electronics into the amplification chain.
• The standard high level hook up procedure is: attach the red wire to the amplifier’s right positive speaker output terminal; attach the yellow wire to the amplifier’s left positive speaker output terminal; attach the black wire to which ever of the amplifier’s ground output terminals is convenient; plug the Speakon connector into the sub’s high level input.
 
• For differential amplifiers using one sub, simply use the standard connecting scheme with the exception of connecting ground to chassis ground, not to speaker output ground, and then connecting into the high level input (Hi Input or Unbal Hi Input on Stentor III and Studio III).
• For differential amplifiers using two subs for each channel: connect red to positive; yellow to negative; and black to chassis ground; plug the Speakon into the balanced high level input (Bal Hi Input).
Low-level connection, RCA inputs (or XLR on some models), is always an option, should high- level connection not be possible, or in a theater system where both high-level and low-level connection should be used. When connecting to the low level inputs, connect a single RCA cable to the 0dB RCA jack. Additional gain can be achieved by connecting to the +12dB input. If you are connecting two channels of stereo output from a pre-amplifier, simply use a high-quality y-adaptor to sum the two signals together.
Positioning
The optimal position for a REL is in one of the corners behind the main speakers. This position provides 9 dB of mechanical amplification and allows for the most linear true low bass wave launch, owing to the ability to tune the sub to the axial node of the room, or longest throw distance.
The Process
To begin the set-up process, choose a piece of music that has a repetitive bass line that is very low in frequency. We recommend cut 4 from the soundtrack to Sneakers (Columbia CK 53146). This has a repetitive bass drum throughout that gives you plenty of time to move the woofer around, but more importantly, the recording venue was quite large for this recording, and therefore it has a very deep and large-scale bass signature. This type of cut is perfect for the set-up process, and should be played at the highest reasonable level expected for system play back.
Working with a partner, one in the listening position and one at the woofer manipulating the controls, is the most effective and efficient ways to set up the woofer. If working alone, the initial steps in the set-up can very effectively be carried out from the location of the woofer. Trying to ignore all other music in the cut, listen for the bass drum and its effect on the listening room.
1. Phase Orientation: Once in the corner we need to adjust for phase. This may be the single most critical step, and because it really is quite simple, it is often over thought, especially by the most experienced audiophiles. Keep in mind; the right phase is whichever position is the loudest or fullest. While playing music with true low bass, adjust the crossover to a point where the sub and the speaker are sure to share frequencies (B, 3 for big speakers; C, 4 for smaller speakers). At this point turn the gain so that both sub and speaker are roughly equal and then switch, using the “mode selector” switch, from “0” (position 1) to “180” (position 3) phase positions. Again, whichever position is loudest or fullest is the correct position, and, as often as not, may be 180-degree phase. That is, this position is working in harmony with your main speakers, reinforcing bass, and not canceling it.
2. Room Orientation: Next, if space allows, try two different orientations of the woofer relative to the wall. First, while playing the set-up cut, place the REL with the connection panel parallel with the rear wall. (See Figure 1) Second, place the REL with the connection panel parallel with the sidewall. As with phase, the orientation which yields the most output is the best position for that room. This process simply orients the driver, and port, to most efficiently vent into the room. In some instances there may be little difference, at which point aesthetic concerns may override performance concerns. For Q
 
series, if possible, point the driver directly out of the corner, equidistant from the sidewalls.
3. Placement: The next step is to determine precisely how far out from the corner the sub should be placed to achieve the most efficient output, as well as the lowest frequency extension. With the sub fully into the corner, continuing to play the music, slowly pull the sub from the corner on the diagonal, equidistant from both side and rear wall (See fig. 2). At a certain point (sometimes a matter of only a few inches, in rare cases a foot or more) the sub will audibly go lower, play louder, and, if it truly locks on to the room and is fully pressurizing it, the air around the sub will seem to be energized. Stop right there! This is the correct position for the sub.
4. Crossover and Gain Settings: To determine the crossover point, bring the gain down, put the crossover to A-1, bring the gain back up to the point where you have achieved a subtle balance (In some situations where there may not be sufficient output due to room and subwoofer interactions B-1 should be the position to use in setting initial gain). Working only with the coarse control (A-D), bring the crossover point up until it is obviously too high, at this point bring it down to the next lowest setting. Now, working with the fine control (1-6), bring up the crossover point until it sounds too high, at which point bring it back down to the next lowest setting. For all intents and purposes, this is the correct crossover point. Once this stage has been reached, subtle changes to gain and crossover can be accomplished to provide the last bit of complete and seamless integration. With that, set-up is complete.
Note: As the Q-series crossover adjustment uses a single variable control, use the closest correlating position to any of the crossover settings noted above for ST series models. Ultimately, as with the click stops of the ST range, simply bring gain and then crossover up until excess output is achieved, then back down a soft-click or two.
Hint: There is a tendency among audiophiles to set the crossover point too high and the gain too low when first learning how to integrate a REL with the system, the fear being one of overwhelming the main speakers with bass. But in doing so, the resulting set-up will be lacking in bass depth and dynamics. The proper crossover point and gain setting will increase overall dynamics, allow for extended bass frequencies, and improve soundstage properties. Note, gain must be adjusted in conjunction with crossover changes. In general, when selecting a lower crossover point, more gain may need to be applied.
Theater and Film Applications: For Dolby Digital AC-3 or other 5.1 theater systems, once the standard set-up for two-channel outlined above is complete, the LFE output from the processor or receiver should be connected to the low-level input and appropriate gain adjustments made. It may be necessary to take the crossover out of the low-level input using the “mode” switch if extra upper bass output is called for. Keep phase consistent with what was selected during high-level set-up by simply choosing the corresponding setting (1 = 2, 3 = 4). For this configuration, you must set the processor to the “large” or “full range” setting for the left and right speakers in order for the REL to receive the bass signal via the high-level cable. In this configuration, the REL provides support for both the left and right speakers for two-channel listening, and support for the LFE when movies are playing. Most processors will allow you to defeat the subwoofer output when listening in the two-channel mode. The effect of this set-up is one of greatly increased dynamics in the mid-bass range; no bass bloat; and a greater degree of space and timing from the Foley effects. For an even greater sense of space and impact, a second woofer connected in parallel to the center channel will prove to be a dramatic improvement as well. And if that is not enough fun, a rear sub, both to support the rear channel speakers as well as to evenly distribute LFE through the room, truly completes the full-range
 
sonic picture for state-of-the-art film reproduction. A comprehensive set-up paper for home theater will be coming very soon.
Other Tips: Generally speaking, do not use the supplied spikes. RELs work on the principle of the driver in a high-pressure zone relative to the floor. Spiking the REL will decouple the woofer from the floor, which will lean out the bass response. If the floor is an older, very “springy” floor, spikes can be useful in reducing the influence of the REL on the floor. But better yet, a heavy stone slab placed under the REL will work better. Even if you intend to use the spikes, do NOT insert them until completion of the set-up process. After which, subtle adjustments to crossover and gain may be necessary.