A Discussion About What Level Of Analog To Stop At


So this is a bit of a friendly discussion, a sharing of information, and perhaps a bit of a what if thread.

As we acknowledge, the rooms our stereo’s reside in are a significant factor in how our audio systems sound. Now this discussion takes place mostly in the arena of speakers, and perhaps amplification for those speakers. I don’t believe I have read threads where it comes up in context to our source components. But I am wondering if it should?

In terms of myself, I only run one system unless you count my headphone rig. Truth is I rarely listen to that and I wonder if it is worth the money I spent there. But I am a consolidator and climber when it comes to audio gear. I also have an understanding with my patient spouse that I keep the audio gear in one room. I suspect if I tried taking over another room with audio gear, she would bury me in a shallow grave in the back yard.

So I have run of the living room within reason. Now this is the best room for audio in the house, but it is by no means perfect. it is 16’W by 20’ L with 8’ ceilings that are textured with acoustic popcorn. The flooring is short pile carpet with heavy pad. There is a dining room off the left wall, so only a half wall on that side. The right wall has a picture window in it. 6’L and 5’T. The back wall has french doors with glass panes. There is a little notch in the back left corner about 3’L by 1.5’D, its where they put a small bathroom on the other side of the wall. Equipment rack is on the side wall under the window. The speakers on the short wall on each side of a fireplace. Listen chair is 4 feet off the french doors.

Stereo consists of:

Martin Logan CLX ART speakers w dual Velodyne HGS12 subwoofers

Classe Omega monoblock amplifiers

Trinov Amethyst pre-amp (the DSP functions are a prime consideration in buying)

Cen Grand DSDac 1.0 Deluxe DAC

BPT 2.5 Signature power conditioner

Now all the analog gear is where it gets messy, and my consolidation thoughts are kicking in

Turntable #1 SOTA Cosmos Eclipse/SME V/Transfiguration Audio Porteus

Turntable #2 Scheu Analog Das Laufwerk No2 with Schroder CB-1L and Ortofon Verismo. Second arm Dynavector DV505 that gets used with an Ortofon MC2000/Ortofon MC3000 II/Kiseki Blackheart

Phono stages are a BMC MCCI Signature ULN, a standard BMC MCI Signature, and Esoteric E-03. Have an Ortofon T2000 SUT to use with the MC2000.

 

As a consolidator I sometimes wonder if all of this is necessary. The money is spent and this is kind of my audio kitty funds. I tend to keep those monies separate and often save and then sell pieces being upgraded to afford that next step. The reality is that often I cannot have to expensive pieces side by side and decide which I like the best. Since I also shop Audiogon and USAM for used gear it’s not possible to listen to candidates. As a consolidation I look at what is out there. For instance, when I tally things up I could possibly afford a Walker Proscenium that happens to be on Ebay at the moment. I would be down to one table, one phono stage, and two cartridges. One thing that stops me is that gold on the Walker is damned ugly, secondly, I am not sure I got room for the pump assembly. My system is a bit large for this room as it sits.

As I am writing I wonder if this room can really support a higher tier of analog gear than I got. I think some would argue that this room is limited in ways to compromise even what I have. The sound is very nice, better than I hear at many shows, and in other audiophiles’ homes I have gone to. We have a local audio group, and I haven’t heard anything I like better. In the past I have used the MC3000 II cartridge as a casual listening tool, but with the CEN GRAND DAC the sound is so nice I really don’t need to do that anymore. Still need the Dynavector arm though if I want to play the MC2000. Now all of these cartridges sound very very nice, and I could live with any of them. Truth is I like the Transfiguration the least. Or I think so till I spend about a weekend listening to it.

One thought is to choose one table and sell it all off and maximize that one. The other is to keep the Verismo and probably the Kiseki. Buy the very best table and arm I can with all the funds gathered once I sell all that stuff. The question I cannot answer for myself is ...is this worth it given what my room allows this system to do? I have a small amount of room treatment with wood diffusers, ART series acoustic panels, and the DSP function of the preamp. But I cannot turn this into a full-on treated room because of the basic limitations of it.

I have probably made posts in the past in other threads putting ideas like this forward. But I don’t know if I ever made a comprehensive post with all these thoughts. laid out. If you feel its repetitive, I do understand. However, if you have thoughts or ideas, I would surely be interested in reading them. Take the conversation wherever makes sense, as this is meant to be a wide-ranging discussion. Thanks for any of your contributions!

 

neonknight

@lewm 

Yes I run the MC2000/T2000 into the MM input of the Esoteric E-03. This morning I decided to reinstall one of my Ortofon MC2000 cartridges. One has a factory tapered aluminum cantilever, and my other one met an unfortunate accident and had to get fitted with a boron cantilever. So by default this one becomes my casual play cartridge. So that is the one I put on the table this morning. Such a beautiful sounding cartridge! 

When working though the dialing in of the system I primarily used digital material. When I did listen to a record, I found myself using the Ortofon Verismo and BMC MCCI Signature ULN. Somewhere in that process I know I spent a weekend listening to the Kiseki Blackheart on the Dynavector arm into the Esoteric MC configuration. I enjoyed both of those cartridges immensely, and I kind of  thought perhaps the MC2000 wasn't really a good match for what the system has become. 

Today has slapped me right across the cheek, and said are you daft? I have the lesser MC2000 playing now with some William Ackerman vinyl, and the sound is so beguiling that you can just sit and let it wash over you. Such a beautiful cartridge, and to think it conceived in the early 1980's. Such beautiful music, I feel fortunate to be able to listen to such a special and unique offering. 

I know someone who bought an MC2000 and attempted to run it on a BMC. He reported that combination did not work out well. I can certainly give it an experiment one dreary weekend this winter and see what happens. 

As I mentioned, I enjoyed the Kiseki Blackheart. The sound is sweet and intimate, and yet still remarkably detailed. I can see what the allure of the Blackheart is, and it is certainly more aligned with a Koetsu kind of presentation, which is fundamentally different than the MC2000. 

What a wonderful hobby we have, and such a remarkable time where we can have craftsmen maintain and restore the gems of yesteryear and yet we have exquisite and rare talismans built by todays artisans. What a remarkable time we are in, as vinyl was supposed to have been dead and buried two decades ago. 

@neonknight 

You have done a great job so far. There are other more important fish to fry besides a Walker Prothenium which IMHO is over the hill in terms of complexity and I am not in any way in favor of that tonearm. 

You and I have very similar tastes in HifI gear. Both our systems are based on ESLs and subwoofers. We both use Digital preamplifiers. My first suggestion is to get rid of the Velodyne subwoofers and get a pair of ML Balanced Force 212s. 

Next will be to trade the Trinnov in for a DEQX Pre 4 or 8. I almost bought the Amethyst until I got wind of the new DEQX units. They have far more flexibility than the Trinnov particularly in bass management. I will be getting mine in about a month. I was selected along with 119 other people to test the beta version of the software. We get a discount on the units. I think we are all getting Pre 8s which has a full 4 way crossover. I am not sure how ML set up the step up transformers of your speakers. The Sound Labs uses a bass and a treble transformer for each speaker. I am going to biamp the speakers using one amp to drive the treble transformer and the other to drive the bass. The crossover is at 5000 Hz. 

After this play around with cartridges and other sources. I use a Channel D Seta L Plus and use the computer to do the RIAA correction. I can raid my friend's record collections and make perfect replications in 24/192. You can use the vinyl recording software with any phono stage. I have started to stream with Qobuz and can buy files through them. It is a great way to keep up with new music. I still buy records. It is a habit I can not seem to shake. I also use a Sota Cosmos Eclipse Vacuum with a Schroder CB on it. The only other turntable I have my eye on is the Dohmann Helix 1. I would put a Schroder LT on it. I doubt this will ever happen as it is very hard to justify. I use three cartridges, the MC Diamond, the Atlas Lambda SL and the MSL Signature Platinum. At this moment I am not interested in other cartridges.

There is a new control unit for your Sota. Contact Donna and get in line.

I am getting a pair of Audiomica Allbit Consequence power cables for the SLs. skos brought a pair over telling me he heard them on another SL system and could not believe the difference. I thought he was joking! These cables have some type of filter. Darn if they did not increase low level detail beyond the realm of the psychological. For me to pony up thousands for power cables is a novel event.  Something is getting to the diaphragms that is polluting the speakers and I have my own power transformer on the street. I do not know if the same result would occur with your MLs but I would bet it will. You might message skos about them. 

I am going to use the MA 2s (Atma-Sphere) to drive the bass transformers as they are uniquely suited to that role. I will need a solid state amplifier with a very low output impedance to drive the treble transformers. Roger West suggested the Benchmark AHB2s but I was thinking of something more like the PAS XA 100.8s. Ralph would like to sell me his class D amps. This is going to be a tough decision. 

Dear @neonknight  : Are you using those Velodynes as a bass support only or you are crossing the ML ( say at 90hz. ) and from here comes the Velodyne bass running let in that the ML runs with out " distress " and lower system distortions?

The Omega can play any loudspeaker and has very good design those Classé Audio, I like it.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

inna makes a point. The difference between playing music and playing with music.

When I sold my LPs, I made the decision I would rather spend my time playing music.  Both completely valid and isn't it wonderful we have the choice!

 

FWIW, I had a Thorens I modified with a Grace arm and cartridge into a Hafler preamp I built into the base. 

I would get one the very best turntable that I could afford. It is so important. Then maybe two arms with two cartridges. Maybe.  Probably one set would be enough. But that's me. Some really enjoy playing different tables with various arms and cartridges.

@tvrgeek has made it quite clear, where there is real enjoyment and memories to be made in music, and that is alongside a Crowd at a live music performance or just a meeting with a Busker in a Public Place, either can have a profound effect and create a stimulus that encourages more encounters.

I first encountered the Sisters from the Band 'First Aid Kit' on a evening Tube Train Journey near Victoria in London. There Public Display of practicing vocal harmonies was a real treat to be party to.

A few years later following the indelible experience, I encountered the Sisters once more at Glastonbury Festival and learned who they were as a Band. Today I own all of their Albums released on Vinyl.

There are over the years quite a few Busker Groups encountered, and out of these encounters, I have ended up with their CD's on offer for 'in car entertainment' purposes. 

In my case anything that is not experiencing live performances, is a secondary interest in experiencing musical encounters. 

The use of Audio Equipment is for myself not of a great importance, its usage is merely a means to experience a Bands work, as a result of recordings of their music being made available as a commercial product.

The Merchandise supplied to be used, is produced via a host of processes, where non-Band material is embedded into the recorded medium.

Embedded material put in place, is sometimes as a result of collaboration or disagreement. The embedded info is mainly a creativity of an individual with no real affiliation to the Band, the process is strictly and fundamentally a design to be a marketing strategy and generate sales.

 

 

As to your actual question, I use Sound Lab 845PXs sans subwoofers in a room that is about 15 X 23 X 9.  So a bit larger than yours but not by much.  Like your room, my Sound Lab room gives way via a double size doorway into our large dining room on one long wall, and at the rear there is a large portal to the foyer.  On the other long wall is a floor to ceiling window framed by porous drapes, which are never fully drawn.  Again, this is much like what you describe.  In this environment, I do not sense that the SLs are too large for the room, possibly owing to the portals that vent the listening space to two other large spaces.  I do favor closing the double doors that lead into the dining room, when listening.  I've never seen CLXs in the flesh, but I imagine they are on the order of the same size as my 845s.

It's impossible (in my opinion) to advise you what to sell and what not to sell or what to buy, unless finances compel you to pare down your equipment list. Otherwise, it's all good stuff. Just keep evolving at your own pace. Evolving is the key.

I have 3 systems (no television, except the band, in this house), all vintage (how I say USED or OLD). One system is strictly mono (single driver!) in my "library" the other system in that room is TT -stereo, DAC for Spotify- my "talent booking agent", and CD. My main system is in the "Living room" CD, Cassette (I have sound board pirate tapes, and other live) The SAE 2100L pre-amp lets me switch between 2 TT's, so one is dedicated stereo, one mono, independent gain (and I do run phono pre for my MC. Like I said, everything I have is old. I think about spending on new(er) but don't want to cut back on my media buying, (or shelf construction) which will only get worse if I take the Dokoder out of moth balls... and I am trying to retire. Having said all that, when my sound gets "stale" or I simply have a wild hair, I experiment with headphones for awhile, speaker placement, listening location, and wall treatments (fabric over foam so far) and I have noticed the bookshelf effect, or a different pressing?. A recent re-cap did wonders for a couple units in the main, too. I also try to be diligent with servicing. Sometimes I use a Test record, or a pink noise generator and mic, sometimes I throw a bean bag over my shoulder ;). I also have enough stuff to swap out components on a whim. A re-direct usually lasts a couple of months, although the last shuffle in the library has been fortunately and surprisingly brilliant. Sorry I have no contemporary suggestions on what you should buy next.

Am I correct in guessing you use the T2000 with the MC2000 into the MM inputs of the E03? Otherwise I wonder . I run my MC2000 into my MCCI with its internal gain set at +11db, then into my 3160 which adds linestage gain. I’m thinking it might be even better to set MCCI gain at +14db.

None of tyhat is necessary. Rational people will buy a nice table radio and just listen. If they want a real experience, they will go to live music.  The rest of us are crazy.   Where to stop? Well, do you hear a defect you want to correct, or just have that "next box will be magically better" bug that supports the audiophile hobby?  If so, you never stop. 

I am way too poor, or cheap, so I only am targeting specific issues that get in the way of the music.  I am stuck with the room as it is a living room, not a listening room. I did just re-built my speakers changing from SEAS to SB tweeters and a very different crossover. Fixed the top in "air" and maybe a little of the vocal sibilance.  Looking as the big bucks ( for me) maybe a Denafritz or Cord DAC. My DSP box for my sub should get here this week.  Specific changes for specific problems.  Sure, as an audiofool at heart, I would love a Boulder or Roland amp, Dave DAC, top of the line Sonas Fabers...    Only if I won the lottery. 

I only know tables from " back in the day" but have highest regard for SOTA. Easy to set up. Just plain worked.   I do not know your DAC, but I have concluded a lot of the issues I hear are actually DAC related. Some I fixed in JRiver configuration, but others are intrinsic to how DACs work.  Might I suggest looking into a Chord? 

Post removed 

Just my thoughts, keep your favorite turntable, tonearm, and phono. Swap out cartridges at your leisure. Both your turntables are very nice. It would be a difficult choice for me, but I think the SOTA is a keeper. 
 

Best of  luck with your decision!

I have Multiple TT's and a selection of TA's that will be a dream combination for many.

I am a owner of a selection of Cartridges LOMC, HOMC and MM, some are immediately usable some need a visit to a Third Party Service to be returned to a version of a former glory and a few are Specifically purchased to be not used as the purchased Cart'. These are donor models for a rebuild Cart'. 

It would not be much more than a £1000's to have all owned Cart's in a condition I would like to see them.

Like Yourself, I can get caught up in Cart's and have a keen interest in what can be offered as a result of using them. At present one of your Cart's in use is a Cart' I have keenness to experience, and another is one I have always been keen on, and once nearly bought into the model.

When it comes to experiencing Vinyl Replays, I have always been contented with One TA>Cart' immediately available, the option to have Two TA's and another Cart' has seemed an attractive option, but not enough of one for myself to put into practice as a permanent option.

As a personal undertaking, I do like to experience how the audio experience can be impacted on by changing electronic interfaces down stream of the Cart' and TA Signal Path.

To do this I have TA's that enable the Tag Wires to be exchanged, and PC Triple C has been the Tag Wire that has superseded all other tried out Tag Wires.

I have used Din>RCA Interconnects produced with both Silver and Copper Signal Wires and PC Triple C Wire has been to one that has superseded all other wires used as a signal wire for a Cable.

I have also experienced Cart' Pins to RCA continuous wired TA's using both Silver and Copper as the Signal Wire. Admittedly all TA's tried using this wiring method, have not been the same, I am expecting a experience to be had before the end of the year where that is to change.  

I have experienced the same TA's with different Copper Signal Wires with the same Cart' and TT, on the same Audio System and the TA' using the PC triple C wire for the Signal Path has proved to be extremely impressive and is the one I will aspire to.

I started working on Mechanical Interfaces a very long time ago, this is a continued experience and commenced working on electrical interfaces about six years ago. When PC Triple C was discovered and later D.U.C.C Wire, there was not much else to be done with the wire types, wire gauges and wire terminations/connectors, that is another area of learning about interfaces.

There has for myself, the need to be listening to music as the main area of participation in all this, and not in a analytical/critical way, just getting the opportunity to switch off for months at a time and experience Old and New Musical encounters is the Goal, forgetting the influence of the equipment and bespoke treatments for the equipment and ancillaries.

Additionally the use of a CD Source does not stimulate any ambitions/intentions for the Source in the same way the Vinyl Source does. This enables numerous hours of music to be replayed and experienced in a variety of moods. It is also a an attraction to have in use a CD Source that is as attractive to have in use as the Vinyl Source. In the past year the CD Source has travelled more than the Vinyl Source to be used for away from the home demonstrations, it really does create a very positive reception. 

Every so often for myself and as for many others, the urge comes to experience something new.

I have developed my own way of doing this, that is pretty much contained around the Phono Amplification.

I have a few options on Phonostages > SUT/Head Amp.

I can use a LOMC straight into a MM Stage, or with a selection of permutations across the available supporting ancillaries. A lot of alternate experiences can be had, and a stimulation can be produced to try out specific recordings with a particular permutation.

Over the past 18 Months I have encountered a New to myself Brand of SUT's and a SS - MM/MC Phonostage I am keen to experience in the home system. All roads lead to the idea, these devices might just be very worthy additions to already owned devices. The reason I stick tight to this as a method, is that these device types are not anything like being extremely fragile or sacrificial like a Cart'.

Using the method where supporting ancillaries are in use, the opportunity to experience alternative presentations is not so precarious, as is a exchanging of Cart's as the other option. 

A EE friend feels they have discovered a easily reversible tweak that can be incorporated into my DAC, that will most likely lift the performance to be a a little more impressive, I am keen to have this experience.

I am not a trader in equipment to keep my interest in audio equipment in control financially, even though I have bartered in the past to have a EE, carry out work for myself. I have very few sales under my belt and the last was probably a TT I have duplicates of approx' 4 years ago.

I am a hoarder and doesn't those that know me, know about it.

I have a audio/man cave room, it has been treated for absorption and diffusion, the work undertaken seemingly works a treat.         

I have ESL Speakers as my main Speakers, but also have a Floor Standing Cabinet Speaker and until recently a Stand Mount Speaker.

Rules are Rules, and the Stand Mounted Speakers had overstayed their welcome outside of the listening room and were gifted by my wife to a family member.

My away from home listening sessions have introduced me to a variety of Speakers both ESL and Cabinet, some of the homes visited have both design types at hand to be put to use. I do feel as a result of these experiences, I am homed in on the virtues of both design types when used in a particular environment.

It is no secret on this forum, that over the past Six Years I have been closely associated with a EE/Engineers work being carried out on their own design for a TA'. The parallel and interesting outcome is the EE/engineer has been improving on the Speakers used within their system and I am now convinced that a search for a New Speaker Type will be one that I get a real beneficial outcome from.

Another friend who is using the same TA as above as well as having produced their own design for a TA, has extensive experience with producing Speakers. I have been demo's a few designs of Speaker against the same ESL's I own in their own home. I am always impressed with what a carefully thought out Cabinet, Driver and Xover can produce in comparison to a ESL.

As a summary and in response to the OP's request to receive thoughts and ideas.

How the Audio Systems Source is created is a personal choice and what is a stimulation is not really a restriction if pursued, even if putting it in place is requiring a additional cost and real estate to have it readily available to be used.

Open minded about interfaces has been the most important factor in keeping certain devices of audio equipment kept and not exchanged, with the correct for the end user interfaces created, there does not seem to be a stimulus created to exchange old for new.

When interfaces are perceived as being of a condition that are to be kept and there is a certainty there is no want for these to be exchanged. The idea of having a device in use, that can be perceived as really capitalising on the presentation of the sound capable of being created, does become an unavoidable stimulus, hence in my most recent evaluation of where I am at, the Speaker becomes the audio device in use with a scrutiny being placed upon it.                    

no way I’m going to read all of that and try to digest it, but good luck with whatever you are trying to accomplish

moving on