A Discussion About What Level Of Analog To Stop At

Dear @fleschler  : Sorry but I only was talking of the rig you posted that was analog. My reference to digital was only because the OP pass the analog signal through digital meaning is not more analog, at least is what I understand by his posts.

As you I like digital too and in several ways outperforms analog, specially in the bass range.

Today every one can enjoy both medium by separate.

R.

@fleschler  : but today cartridge manufacturers just give us no FR chaRTS AND MAYBE THAT'S STARTED HAPPENING DUE THAT NO ONE AUDIOPHILE ASK FOR OR CARES ABOUT.

Today audio items specs are almost with no true interest to audiophiles as in the old times when professional magasines as Audio, Stereo Review or High Fidelity made its audio items reviews with in deep live measurements.

Little by little the AHEE  said us that specs just does not matters but what says the ears and that's it.

R.

Dear @fleschler  : But for what you post you stay totally in the analog domain.

"" We also prefer flat frequency response cartridges with no rising high end.  ""

Yes, historycal almost all of us prefer flat frequenncy. In the old times all top cartridges ( and not top ones too. ) came with the frequency response chart 20hz-20khz and the channel separation in that chart, today no single cartridge comes with.

Ortofon comes with no flat frequency on purpose from several years ago when in its deep research with its golden ears panel made it " thousands of blind test with D2D LP recordings knows by the panel gentlemans whre in those test they listened the cartridge with flat frequency and that same cartridges ( differents ones. ) with up frequency from 19khz-20khz by around 2db and at the end all ´panel gentlemans prefered the those upper 2db in the cartridges. So it's not that Ortofon can't  offer its cartridges with flat FR.

That panel in many ways was and is rigth because those up 2db compensate for the fall down of the inverse RIAA eq. where HF " suffers " and we can listen that deep/fast fall and when we use ( phono stage ) the 3.18us RIAA pole we can attest it. I normally use that RIAA pole.

R.

Dear @neonknight : " Level Of Analog To Stop At "

It’s weird that you ask " nalog " when your system is running digital. The fact that you or any one owns an analog rig and using digital process does not means you are really in analog because you are not.

Analog is analog if we are 100% using analog technology. I remember the indignation of audiophiles whe discovered that MoFy LPs was digital ! !

Anyway, is each one of us privilege to say " analog " even if we are not. It’s useless t you that I can tell you other changes down there when between other things you are using current phono with a voltage device as the cartridge, never mind.

At least my subs integration advise working for you.

R.

Dear @dogberry  : I think we are not out of topic.

The OP thread answers are many dependent of each one of us.

My answer is that that question speaks only " analog "  that's only part of the whole room/system reproduction and " analog " depends of the  overall room/system.

From here my take is that we can stop when our room/system already were truly " fine tunned " at each single link in the overall audio chaIN. wITH OUT THAT " FINE TUNNING " PROCESS there is no satisfactory and precise answer.

That's why I analized the @neonknight  whole set up and my first post here was exactly the integration of those Velodyne subs through a HP filter to the main speakers and neon just did not took in count that post and I insisted with a second post and explanation and he said that the NATURe of the bass in planar vs woofer are different ( I think my self so whaT? ) but Martin Logan used woofers in several of its models and the original CLS model always was demoed by distributors integrated with subs Other planars too as Apoguee and not planar but way different to woofer as horns speakers. In that post I told neon that he need to try it before had his kind of answer and good that finally he did it not for my advise but because I posted that mijos has first hand experiences that I have too but not in my system.

Neon needs to make more test, needs to fine tunning those ML and subs.

@neonknight  , your subs quality signal level can be improved making these ( I own two HGS too. ): first that the input signal goes through its XLR input connectors due that the RCA connectors signal path in the circuit is way longer passing for stages that " affects " the input signal integrity. The other improve comes chaNGING THE WOOFER INTERNAL WIRING THAT GOES FROM THE WOOFER  output terminals to the input of the internal amplifier, I use there KCAG 4 by KK ( silver ), I did it other mods but more complicated at the input/crossover circuit cards. Neon, something that helps too is a top of each sub 30kg. of dead weigth ( please mijos don't come to tell again and again that Velodynwe " this or that " in negative way. Nothing is perfect. ).

I have at least other system change you need to do it from my point of view but I have no time rigth now to do it. 

Btw, IMD and THD always exist in any speaker at different levels.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : I refer to you because lew don't took in count my post to him, aniway here I come with you:

""" It is much less of a problem for two and three way speaker systems because the bass driver's range is limited. """

Not exactly " much less "  because in a 2-way speaker normally its woofer goes from 50hz-60hz up to around 2.5khz and this kind of speakers ( its woofer ) goes down to 40hz even if you don't noted so there exist a really high IMD kind of distortions that subs relief the bass down there and midrange and HF shines as never before. Same with 3-way speakers.

We can't just stop the developed IMD that as you pointed out modulates/color the whole speaker reproduction. Maybe we don't noted because we already are accustommed to that color/modulattion but when we add a pair of self powered true subs and through high pass filters only a deaf audiophile can't hear that new and lowered distortions " color " with ( between others ) additional advantage  that any amplifier will increment its headroom due that now is liberated of that main bass range.. If we like it the new " color " is not the main issue.

R.

Dear @lewm  : Always will be an issue if the main speakers crossover 250-300hz or even a little lower and the speakers goes as the neonnigth around 30-35hz. It's a certain problem depending on that crossover frequency and yes depending of the quality of the drivers will be more lower/higher audibility, but the problem is there. Like it or not.

" low bass notes mixed w treble and nothing in between " this makes no sense to me: do you?  because harmonics are there.

R.

Dear @neonknight  : Even that what you posted makes sense and is what we normally think things are that you really don't know till you test it.

@mijostyn , owns the top SoundLabs and runs with subs crossing at 100hz and using a high pass filter at more or less same frequency. I f he want it he can chime here about with first hand experiences that I have too but not in my system.

R.

Dear @neonknight  : Thank's. So you are using the subs as bass reinforcement wider bass frequency, nothing wrong with that.

The bass subs wider frequency in that frequency range is not the main purpose of true subs ( as yours. ) but a side benefit. The main purpose for the room/system is try to lower the IMD and THD distortions levels from the main speakers.

Yours crossover at 360 hz and that means that the frequency range from around 35hz to 400hz is running in that part of the pannel developing those high distortions especially the Intermodulation and if you crossover ( high pass ) the main speakers at 100hz and from there the subs you will lower those distortions that certainly affects the integrity of the audio signal reproduced by the ML, so you can win a lot at every frequency range doing that: your system quality level performance will improves over what you have rigth now.

Yes, as you explain it you have to run that " involved process " but you can try and can attest the rewards. There is no way not to achieve those rewards. Of course that maybe you like the change or maybe not but this is a different issue.

I just saying because putting at minimum any kind of distortions in any room/system always put us " nearer to the recording ".

R.

Dear @neonknight  : Sorry to insist again how is your ML/Velodyne set up.

Thank's in advance,

R.

Dear @neonknight  : Are you using those Velodynes as a bass support only or you are crossing the ML ( say at 90hz. ) and from here comes the Velodyne bass running let in that the ML runs with out " distress " and lower system distortions?

The Omega can play any loudspeaker and has very good design those Classé Audio, I like it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.