A better way to stream

Interesting comments on streaming!

Do your recommendations apply mainly to a Roon-based system, where separation of the Roon core and endpoint is often encouraged or do they apply to any system that includes both server and streamer functions?

In designing the PhoenixNet network switch, Innuos found that converting light into an electrical signal introduced more noise than using copper connections. If that is true, why do you think you are finding improvements in sound quality with extensive use of optical converters?

A streamer as endpoint would be applicable in case of Roon. Other software like Euphony Stylus can also benefit as well. Depending on streamer, many other functions may be available which also may be beneficial.

The other advantage as I stated previously is ability to bypass the contentious network switch. Another possible advantage is superior clocking that may be incorporated in renderer/endpoint/streamer (goes by many names and functions).

The greatest possible disadvantage of streamer only setups is likely usb out, usb can be much improved by the rendering provided by many of these outboard devices. I observe atx servers provide much better usb rendering within, usb boards like Pink Faun, Jcat. How much rendering are these off the shelf servers offering?

Perhaps Innuos amd some others playing marketing games stating this finding. Yes, many are finding FMC can be both high value proposition and/or most effective means to lower noise floor on network. Optical provides complete isolation from noise caused by upstream components. EMI/RFI both generated within and bombards network equipment and following on grounds is completely eliminated, filters only filter.

In the end, only listening will determine value of optical for any particular setup. Two generic FMC and optical cable can be tried for minimal cost. Optical conversion is easily most universally positively reviewed network component I'm aware of.

Say one has a Bluesound 2i. What are you suggesting to "try?"

If Node you're all in one unit, not much to do, you can even use wifi.

Something like NUC's with separate dac are next step up from Bluesound. At this point network optimizing can pay off. Basic setup will usually be server/streamer all in one package with usb out to dac, usb renderers are first optimization. The issue with most usb outs is they come directly out of motherboards, not ideal, reason why people find usb renderers effective.

Next people generally move to network optimization, which means fancy switches, filters. I'm just proposing another path for optimization, simplifying while employing optical conversion.

My proposal for  optical with shortest signal path would be optimized optical out on server to optical usb renderer/end point/streamer (whatever you want to call it) to dac. This is optimal isolation, read lowest noise floor, should be highest resolution streaming solution.

Since optical out servers are practically non-existent one has to do the fiber media converter dance,

Some people want to stream for convenience, others seeking highest possible sound quality. Many good choices for convenience, have to get into weeds to achieve highest sq.

My take is most off the shelf servers not for me, too little bang for buck, no two ethernet out (with exception of Antipodes, SMG), don't render usb internally and only the very highest end ones will do HQPlayer high level processing. One can do much better with diy atx build, possibly NUC build. 

Highest quality streaming dac can also be another top choice, forget the usb altogether, all you need is optical for the isolation. On some dacs I2S may also be best input, again don't have to worry about the usb stuff, optical is all you need add. Unfortunately, most dacs optimized for usb, rendering and optical both needed for best streaming quality..

I'd settle for a simpler way to stream which is easy to operate  and doesn't rely on a network or at least very little reliance upon it. If your idea will do that then I'm all for it. But it seems to add more complication rather than ease of use

Should have said 2i playing off a hard drive going to an external DAC 

How do you add your mystical optical to that?

Actual devices please.

What the OP is suggesting accomplishes several things.

1) Separating server and streamer duties to dedicated devices

2) A server with multiple LAN ports streamlines the chain

3) Connecting these devices over a network electrically isolates them

4) The streamer can be a low power and low noise device feeding into the DAC

Yes, complexity is higher than simply running USB out from the server into the DAC. You lose most of the above advantages, however.

I had all the pieces for an incredible streaming setup in my home, and I did not know that I did until I read a post on the Musetec 005 DAC thread. This post helped show me that I was wrong in my belief that Fibre Optical was the only thing needed for the best quality stream. 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I am using 3 products by John Swension

- EtherRegen (until recently a very disappointing product)

- Sonore OpticalRendu

- Sonore OpticalModule (have not received it yet but bought it based on the great results with the EtherRegen and OpticalRendu).

The end result is that my streaming has never sounded better. A huge upgrade to my streaming setup. I was going to sell the EtherRegen but so glad I read the John Swenson post and white paper on streaming.

Fiber does reduce noise greatly and is a good streaming solution/upgrade. No doubt. I have found the Network Acoustics ENO combo filter and cable package simply sounds better. More natural tone and improved musicality. The filter is small and passive. It is easy to use, takes up little room, as does not use a power supply. They have a new combo cable and filter package coming out late next month that is even better! I have tested it. Wonderful results. Yes, you should use a good Aphile switch with it. I found the switch I use to be a big plus in sonics. The fact that some don’t believe in switches has never bothered me. Folks think USB cables don’t matter. A great USB cable is a must in my experience.

I think fiber and the system above both accomplish the task well. I tried both and like NA’s approach more sonically in my particular set up. It could be results vary by system and listener.

@fuzztone Playing a hard drive on network, NAS. If hard drive in server you have to go through network switch.

If not using fiber out from server, things get more complex because the conversion required. However, the ultimate optical setup can be pretty damn simple, server with optical out>optical in usb renderer/streamer/end point>dac. Three items, you could cut it down to two if there was such a thing as streaming dac with optical input.

One of the major points I"m making here is the liability of vast majority of usb outs on servers. Many have discovered improvement by using various usb renderers, filters, etc., this complicates what should be simple. An atx motherboard build with Pink Faun or Jcat usb board takes care of the usb problem, but at a cost, $500-$2,000, then add need for dedicated lps for these boards.

So, there is less than optimal usb out and not enough processing power for those who wish to use full potential of HQPlayer dsp. Two inherent flaws of too many off the shelf servers.

Also, there is hierarchy of optical products as well, at low end the generic FMC like TPLInk powered by smps, next up is products like Sonore Opticalrendu, these have Femto clocks and powered by LPS, at the top are Sonore Signaturerendu SE.

My recent upgrade from TPLInk FMC, both powered by lps to Opticalrendu powered by Uptone JS2 was not a small upgrade. Heard within seconds, another layer of noise removed, this easily one of the most meaningful streaming upgrades I've made in four years of streaming.

@sdl4 Perhaps Innuos is referring to the cheap FMC when speaking of adding noise. Adding lps to these certainly lowers noise floor. Sonore observed some modifying internals on these generic devices, thus, was born inspiration for the Opticalrendu line.

“It could be results vary by system and listener.”

I agree with @grannyring. The bottom line is, you must filter inherit noise from your router or modem. There are many ways to skin the cat, if one device doesn’t work try another. The degree of audible improvements from switches or filters will vary and largely depends on downline components.

I am using a Telegartner M12 Ethernet switch (w/NADAC +player) which does a superb job of eliminating noise and has been instrumental in surpassing my Analog setup (SME15AV).

Keep it simple and don’t bog down your system with band-aid solutions. 

@fuzztone Neglected to mention Small Green Computer Sonictransporter I9. Checks nearly all the boxes, Sonore Opticalmodule optical out, fast Intel I9 processor, should be able to run high level HQPlayer dsp if desired. Also has on board storage in various capacities.

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-sonore-signature-rendu-se-systemoptique/

This example of what opticalrendu product can do for system.

Like @grannyring, I have achieved excellent results using the ENO Ethernet filter system with a decent switch (EE 8switch) preceding it in the Ethernet chain that feeds my Innuos Zen Mk3 server/streamer. However, I have not compared my set-up to a fiber-based system as grannyring has done. I do not use Roon, so separating the server and streamer would add unnecessary complexity to my system.

@sns You may be right about noise being added by cheap FMCs. My comments about Innuos preferring the use of copper connectors in their PhoenixNet switch comes out of a review of the PhoenixNet from Jason Kennedy at hi-fi+.

I have noticed that PS Audio has been promoting their use of an internal optical connection to provide better isolation from noise in their newest SACD player and in their upcoming streamer.

@grannyring

Have you compared the Network Acoustics combo (filter and USB cable) specifically with the optical rendu? I am assuming the sound quality is close.

You state: "They have a new combo cable and filter package coming out late next month that is even better! I have tested it. Wonderful results."

Do you know what the pricing will be? Is it substantially better than its predecessor,?