0s & 1s are all the same aren’t they? Is it really worth paying for a “better” Streamer?

Merry Christmas to you too. 

🥰😍🥰😘

You moron there was no rest of the system. A streamer and Dutch and Dutch 8c was it. So which was crap the Lumin, Bel Canto, etc.. or the Dutch and Dutch? You really are a pathetic excuse of a human. 

Because the rest of the system you are currently using is crap. As simple as that. You posted it under Systems shortly before, and you took it down. And rightly so. It was embarrassing. No! A state of the art streamer will not make your $250 “system” sound world class 

I tried a Bel Canto, Auralic, Lumin, Minidsp SHD Studio, raspberry pi4 running Ropiee through a Matrix X-SPDIF2,  Simaudio Moon. These were all fed ethernet by Cat 6a cable and used as roon endpoints. They were connected by AES3 cables to Dutch and Dutch 8c's. I didn't conduct a blind test and other than preferences for UI I didn't prefer one over another, they were basically all the same in SQ. I understand this is my subjective opinion and does nothing to help anyone decide what they might like anymore than someone blabbering about lifted veils and opened soundstages and darker noise floors will. That's the difference I understand that , unless it's a controlled listening process then all any of this is is hyperbole. 

I’ve yet to see a technical accurate analysis of why there is a difference is SQ between two streamers. I’ve seen reasons why there might be audible differences which I have admitted. Just as a class A amp and class D have differences in their build doesn't mean they can be differentiated better than chance in a blind test. 

Really? Explains what exactly, no difference between the raspberry pi or the Bel Canto or Aurrender or Innous etc.. ?

It explains a number of potentialities, a few of which are -

1. Your comparisons may have been made using a flawed method of evaluation 
2. There may be a technical limitation in the system being used to make the evaluation, masking any ability to determine a performance difference
3. You've not spent sufficient time learning how to actively listen 
4. You might not be able to hear very well?
5. You may not have ever made any of the comparisons you've claimed

As far as the technical reasons why different streamers can sound different, there are many. I've hinted at some of them elsewhere on the forum, but a few of them are:

1. What protocol(s) the device is using/can use on the network
2. How well the player software decodes the audio information from the file for delivery to internal digital buses 
3. How well internal digital bus processes (e.g. USB, PCI Express, SATA, RAM, Southbridge/Northbridge, etc.) and other DSP (filters, digital EQ, etc.) are implemented and performed before delivery as audio data to an output 
4. What output or interface is used to translate the digital audio data to PCM for use by the DAC (whether internal or external)
5. How the DAC clocks synchronize the PCM audio data between the sending device (player software and digital bus transport) and the receiving device (DAC interface/input) which can be done a number of ways including Asynchronous/Isosynchronous via USB, a Phase-Locked-Loop using SPDIF connections (Toslink, Coax, or AES/EBU), or an I2S process in which the DAC and Streamer share the same clock. On this note, high performance streamers will typically have multiple clocks on board, one for each word length and sample rate the device is capable of. Some devices like the Aurender W20 have a word clock input for sharing an external word clock between the DAC and Streamer.

Anyway, if you are still convinced there is no difference between streamers after a somewhat succinct and yet technical accurate analysis of why in fact there is, none of this will be any help to you.

Audiofools don’t like blind tests.

I once took a Chinese DAC board I’d bought from eBay to a “bake off” (not sure what you call Hifi meet-ups in US?).
It was hooked up into the same Pre amp as a fancy milled Aluminium Chord 64.   Track played & Preamp selector switched from one to the other.
12 guys & 2 women in the room.
The only two who said they heard a difference were the 2 women.
Guess which they preferred?
It wasn’t the Chord...

There are so many unmentioned variables within your anecdotal story of a "blind test".

If you're going to make a statement, why not put in the effort to describe the rest of the system components, how the DACs were connected, what source was used for the digital signal and with what connection, et al.

Most audio fools don't take the time to do the work to even know how a blind test is conducted, resulting in meaningless anecdotes like yours, containing information of no value to anyone.

Let me answer that for you Dow Jones 50. It explains one thing: you are rucking deaf low life bottom feeder imbecile 😘

Don’t bite @djones51

Audiofools don’t like blind tests.

I once took a Chinese DAC board I’d bought from eBay to a “bake off” (not sure what you call Hifi meet-ups in US?).
It was hooked up into the same Pre amp as a fancy milled Aluminium Chord 64.   Track played & Preamp selector switched from one to the other.
12 guys & 2 women in the room.
The only two who said they heard a difference were the 2 women.
Guess which they preferred?
It wasn’t the Chord...

Really? Explains what exactly,  no difference between the raspberry pi or the Bel Canto or Aurrender or Innous etc.. ? 

I've listened to at least a dozen streamers including a raspberry pi and I could never tell a difference in SQ.

That explains a lot.

My actual listening experience (as opposed to reading about) streamers is limited to 4 — Computer audio ( I lump in various Macs and PCs here), Bluesound Node/Vault 2, Bryston BDP3, and Lumin.
The Lumin was auditioned in my dealers showroom with music that I don’t like and with totally different equipment and a different room, so I really can’t judge it fairly (fwiw, I didn’t like it).  At any rate the Bluesound was preferable to Computers and the Bryston was a significant jump over Bluesound, all using the same DACs.    Next question:  as a value proposition, is it worth it?  The Computers didn’t cost me anything, as I repurposed machines that had been used for other purposes.  The Bluesound Node2 is at a sweet spot for performance and price, but my experience has also been that they crap out after a few years (I had bought 3 for the whole home thing about seven years ago, and two are in Landfills).
The Bryston cost 7 times the Bluesound.
  The point being is that only you can decide what constitutes being “worth it”.  If you are a one per center , not worried about the devastating effects of 2020 on the world economy and your financial stability, then dispose of your income as you see fit in the never ending search for ultimate sound quality.  My intuition is that people who need to ask the question “Is it worth spending big bucks for a streamer?” are not the ones with an unlimited supply of shekels.
I tell newbies start with a computer.  Every one has an old, unloved desktop or laptop laying around .  Add a program such as Audirvana Plus that enhances SQ and turns off all the other unwanted stuff.
Keep in mind that streamers are just Computers that have been optimized for Audio.  You may never need to upgrade, because you can get excellent SQ.  If that upgrade urge hits, I personally would hold the budget to about 1K.  If in your opinion it was a worthwhile upgrade, and not just a lateral move, then go crazy going forward if that is what floats your boat

IME, the digital server is an important part of the system, and choices there can limit the quality of the music your system makes.  I've heard important sonic differences in the following:

Dedicated Win7 computer as source (adequate, but thin sounding)
Roon Nucleus (more detail, a little fuller)
Antipodes DX II (finally, some harmonic meat on the bones that starts to approach analog enjoyment)
Taiko Extreme (Wow.  Beats my turntable.  That's saying something.)

Sure, they all play recognizable music, and I enjoyed the music.  But at each level there was more enjoyment.

These were all heard playing into the same DAC and system.

I've listened to at least a dozen streamers including a raspberry pi and I could never tell a difference in SQ. The most expensive was the Auralic. Some had features I liked, better UI, etc..

Ah, who moderates this forum? Would you please explain why you removed my post?

• It looked like spam
• It was abusive towards another member
• It depicts explicit and/or violent content
• It contains profanity

OK, so other folks can make unsubstantiated, subjective, non-factual claims and when one attempts to provide them with relevant information the answer is to remove the post because someone was offended?

None of the reasons listed were present within my reply to @singintheblues or @jaybe, yet, they actually were abusive in their commentary towards me.

If this is how you moderate your forum I'd love to have a real conversation with you to determine what your reason for removing my post was.

It's funny how no one can actually make any relevant commentary, apparently no real experience.

"Never ceases to amaze me how grown men act like you’ve insulted their kids if you don’t like their Hifi 😂"


+1

The sound is in the name. It’s like saying Linncoln log house. The 'n’s are smeared. If Linn just changed it’s name the smeared house sound would go away.

Jesus, this fella drones on like the Linn house sound.

Never ceases to amaze me how grown men act like you’ve insulted their kids if you don’t like their Hifi 😂

I had the same impression of Linn. Many say they're stuck in the 80s.

Attacks on others as an attempt to cover up butt hurt apparently.

Top streamers like the Aurender you mention will give best results. I’ve tried many. I like and own Aurender, but also like Zenith and Auralic.

@ironlung 😂😂😂😂. Thanks for that.

Should I also learn how to tap my toes?

My point was, anyone describing Linn "house sound" as "smeared" obviously has no real experience with Linn at all, and needs to listen to a properly set up Linn HiFi. You just sound ignorant.

The LP12, Klimax DS/DSM, CD12, Karik/Numerik, et. al are industry standards for performance by which all other domestic HiFi sources are ultimately judged. In ANY system.

Your comment is akin to an owner of a Dodge Charger claiming a Porsche 911 GT3 Turbo is "sluggish". Absolutely bollocks, and no basis what so ever in fact.

There are so many owners of Linn sources in the HiFi and music industry you would be embarrassed to discover you should become part of the fringe instead of trashing it with your glib statements.

Sure there are plenty of other similar high performance brands but no one is high performance who makes "smeared" sounding products. That's just a ridiculous assessment.

I doubt it but only your ears know for sure.
Now if you wanna pay up for looks....
If you are more interested in SQ just put your money into a Silent Angel and an Allo Shanti. Besides 1s & 0svthere is jitter and distortion.
https://6bas55wfm4qiim2sxsnxhehlz4-adwhj77lcyoafdy-www-alpha-audio-nl.translate.goog/2019/11/alpha-a...

I’d keep streamer, DAC, amp separate unless you really need to reduce the box count for some reason.  And yes, they all matter significantly just like everything else in this hobby.

@ironlung 😂😂😂😂. Thanks for that.

Should I also learn how to tap my toes?

You’ll find there’s a recent thread just a few below this one that covers the same subject.  And, in that thread you’ll find scores of us who find better streamers make a very significant difference and a good number of respondents who believe in the orthodoxy of 1s and 0s delivered in packets can’t possibly make a difference.

I’m in the former camp.  They’re as important as the DAC.

But, YMMV so you’ll have to try with your own ears with your own equipment.

As for the "do expensive streamers really sound better" I recently upgraded from a Bluesound Node 2i which I thought was a great streamer for the money. I was using it as a streamer only, running it into a Chord Qutest. A couple weeks ago I received my new Innuos Zen which I am running into the same Qutest. I am amazed at how big of a difference I heard as far as streaming. More open, and detailed, but just a fuller bodied, richer sound. The biggest thing was it felt more natural, female vocals were the biggest, just cleaner and more natural sounding, no digital edge. 

My Wyred-4-Sound modified Sonos, into a very good DAC, sounds much better than the standard Sonos into the same DAC...sending in less jitter and noise I’m told, regardless of why, all who listened heard significant improvement...

I'd suggest you invest time into learning how to listen. It's apparent by your comment about Linn that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.