Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

I base my decisions for audio gear only by how they connect me to the music emotionally. I realize this is just flowery nonsense for tech-heads. I don’t care how a product measures as long as it connects me to the music. I envy a person who sits in a car, listening to what many may consider a substandard car stereo but is enjoying the heck out of the song. The car stereo is connecting the listener to the emotion of the music. It’s that emotional connection I want. I could care less about measurements. Let qualified engineers do that. I am NOT qualified nor do I pretend to be. Amir is just black&white on audio. He doesn't have or express any emotion to connect himself to any music. He reminds me of a robot or AI who has zero emotional connection to gear. He probably has a serious case of alexithymia.

BTW, can someone explain to me how you evaluate the sound of a product you don't even listen to?

 

Well, take the example of cables.  Any decent cable should, used within spec, be audibly transparent. 

Take claims about, say, an expensive USB cable like the Nordost Tyr, which Amir reviewed and measured.  The company makes all sorts of claims about the sonic enhancements you will hear over a regular USB cable.  But Amir showed in his review, with measurements, that it did not change the signal in any possibly audible way, vs a cheaper USB cable. 

So...by measurements you can tell certain sonic claims are false, and also that if you replace a cheap cable with the Nordost cable, it won't have any sonic consequences.  You can know it will SOUND the same...from the measurements.

 

 

I base my decisions for audio gear only by how they connect me to the music emotionally. I realize this is just flowery nonsense for tech-heads. I don’t care how a product measures as long as it connects me to the music. I envy a person who sits in a car, listening to what many may consider a substandard car stereo but is enjoying the heck out of the song. The car stereo is connecting the listener to the emotion of the music. It’s that emotional connection I want. I could care less about measurements. Let qualified engineers do that. I am NOT qualified nor do I pretend to be. Amir is just black&white on audio. He doesn’t have or express any emotion to connect himself to any music. He reminds me of a robot or AI who has zero emotional connection to gear. He probably has a serious case of alexithymia.

 

When you say that what matter is your own connection on an emotional level to music, an ASR member or Amir can then criticize your subjective listening experience as pure deluded subjective arbitrary sensations...

They do it regularly...

They dont understand acoustics at all ...😁

They promote a techno-cultic ideology centered around few tools for verifying a small set of specs.. Thats all... It is useful but thats all ...

Their ideology though is meaningless ...

They then will dismiss your emotional Bodily sensations as hallucinations, placebo effects, and at the end completely meaningless..

They can do this because they are stupendously ignorant about hearing theory and specifically ecological hearing theory...

If they had read philosophy of science and psychology the name J. J. Gibson will ring a bell in their head...😁

 

 

Now read this FREE article a very serious study in acoustics science demonstrating the universal meaning in the human emotional body of music...

«Our main finding was that the topographies of music-induced
bodily sensations vary according to the emotional and structural
features of music while being consistent across participants and musical exemplars from Western and East Asian cultures. We
observed close correspondence between music-induced subjective
emotions and bodily sensations, suggesting that bodily responses
might be a key pathway in the elicitation and differentiation of
music-induced emotions (27). Given the cultural consistency of
these effects, the results suggest similar embodiment of musical
emotions across distant cultures and point toward a biological
component in music- induced bodily sensations.»

«We conclude that music induces consistent bodily sensations and
emotions across the studied Western and East Asian cultures.
These subjective feelings were similarly associated with acoustic
and structural features of music in both cultures. These results
demonstrate similar embodiment of music-induced emotions in
geographically distant cultures and suggest that music-induced
emotions transcend cultural boundaries due to cross-culturally
shared emotional connotations of specific musical cues. We argue
that bodily experience, which may arise from skeletomuscular
activity and changes in the physiological state of the body, plays a critical role in the elicitation and differentiation of music-induced emotions.»

 

 

«Emotions, bodily sensations and movement are integral parts of musical experiences. Yet,it remains unknown i) whether emotional connotations and structural features of music elicit discrete bodily sensations and ii) whether these sensations are culturally consistent.We addressed these questions in a cross- cultural study with Western (European andNorth American, n = 903) and East Asian (Chinese, n = 1035). We precented participants with silhouettes of human bodies and asked them to indicate the bodily regions whose activity they felt changing while listening to Western and Asian musical pieces with varying emotional and acoustic qualities. The resulting bodily sensation maps
(BSMs) varied as a function of the emotional qualities of the songs, particularly in the limb, chest, and head regions. Music-induced emotions and corresponding BSMs were replicable across Western and East Asian subjects. The BSMs clustered similarly across cultures, and cluster structures were similar for BSMs and self-reports of emotional experience. The acoustic and structural features of music were consistently associated with the emotion ratings and music-induced bodily sensations across cultures. These results highlight the importance of subjective bodily experience in music-induced emotions and demonstrate consistent associations between musical features, music-induced
emotions, and bodily sensations across distant cultures.»

Bodily maps of musical sensations across cultures

Authors:

 

@audition__audio

 

The crux of this entire thing comes down to the fact that most measurements do not tell you how a device will sound.

This is a "speak for yourself" moment ;-)

People who actually understand measurements can tell quite a bit about how a product will sound. The fact you can’t doesn’t change that.

After all, what in the world do you think audio measurements arose for in the first place? Just some utterly abstract academic project? No. Measurements and measuring equipment grew out of the need to quantify and correlate measurements to how something sounds. That’s the whole point of developing and using measurements! How else do you think audio engineering works? Guesswork? Deliverance from dreams?

 

How else then could it be that an amplifier with identical specifications doesnt sound exactly like another amp that measures the same?

The answer is: Your imagination.

This is what many audiophiles just seem to be utterly ignorant about: the power of bias. It isn’t just easy to imaging sonic differences that aren’t there: it’s almost guaranteed - we tend to "hear differences" when comparing things, whether they are there or not. That’s why science controls for those variables.

 

This is where Amir is so completely wrong. We do not know how to measure the things in the audio chain which some of our ears perceive as the most vital in reproduction.

Again, sorry for being blunt, but when you say "We" I think you mean "you."  You seem unaware of the breadth and detail science has gained about our senses and perception.  I work in film sound production, using synths, samples and tons of plug ins.  The only reason all these are possible is because of how much we know about "what causes something to sound this or that way" and have codified it technically.

So...by measurements you can tell certain sonic claims are false, and also that if you replace a cheap cable with the Nordost cable, it won't have any sonic consequences.  You can know it will SOUND the same...from the measurements.

Prof are you a sophist?

For sure we can tell by measurements that certain sonic claims MAY BE  false ( not are always false as you wrote) this does not means that all audible characteristics of sounds perceived meanings are measurable by few electrical tool ...

Are you unable to read the two0 scientific article i just put here?

I had three other one to close the door behind your techno cultist electrical  tool  sophism put as science in replacement of acoustics ...

 Are you unable to read scientific article?