Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

The perception of timbre is not a deluded perception of some subjective coloration or the extraction of a ratio from a pure Fourier map... It is the recognition of a physical set of invariants in the vibrating sound source or affecting it ... ( Pythagorean purely mathematical description of acoustic information as ratio is debunked by late science and the new ecological theory of acoustic)

A qualia it is was we detected...Something Galilee exclude from science 5 centuries ago because it is not easily reducible to the primary qualities..But science progress.. 😊

 

For the simplest example of a perceived physical invariant from the vibrating sound source : you tap a fruit to inform yourself if this vibrating source will communicate to you one of these two information by some physical invariant : is the fruit ripe or not ...

 

Then now suppose in an experiment where i put quartz piece on a cable...

And suppose that i put a shungite piece after on this cable in a second experiment ...

Is it possible that my Ears/brain could detect something affecting one of the vibrating sound source (the cables with or without the minerals on it ) ? 😋

 

As you can see i can propose one of the hundred of experiments i devised for myself ...

I can predict that the shungite will compress the sound and the quartz will not... 😊

Is it measurable? Probably but not by Amir tools...With your ears you could do it ...

 

 

@prof 

Agree with everything you say in the immediately preceding post. If I wanted to write a scientific paper for publication, I would proceed differently. As it is, I am retired and interested in how my friends and I hear music, and design and fabricate accordingly. I’m willing to share, but not to go to Herculean lengths to convince. YMMV

Some are not here to exhange about audio experience. But they are here to sell gear or worst their own ideology...

They cannot be convinced , they dont think , they used their tools. Period. 😊

 

@terry9 

Agreed. I've often argued that to point out the relevance of measurements and controlled listening test is NOT to entail that audiophiles are required to do any such thing in enjoying the hobby.

I also have perceptions that I just role with in my set up, which I haven't rigorously validated.  For instance, I seem to perceive sonic differences in tube rolling with my CJ amp.  Have I double checked this rigorously with blind testing and can I demonstrate this to someone else over the internet?  Nope.  But that's ok, I'll enjoy the ride anyway.

 

By the way "distortion" is not just a defect... ( measured in THD ) 😁

It may be a quality...

Some musician use it for expression and poetic diction too ...

Then distortion as in speech transmission index (STI) which predicts speech intelligibility based on reverberation, background noise, and signal distortion refer to many things not one . Then distortion means a lot of things...

But mainly distortion is not only and merely a negative impediment or a deformation of an electric signals it is also an acoustic phenomenon related among other factors to the reverberation time in a room ..It can be also an added musical effect....

In my experience above, the right balance between quartz and shungite on the cables increase the auditory perception of the signals as, if i may borrow a metaphor, like a more thicker and refined line in a drawing improve the visual (acoustic) meanings perception ...

Here too in my definition of distortion, which is more than just the signals/noise ratio, it is about a  POSITIVE qualia, a physical invariant linked to speech detection or to musicality ...A surplus of information that cannot be always disqualified as an impediment...

I am a bit far from ASR ideology here ...😊

Science is complex, techno cultism is simplistic... It is a faith based on the idolatry of tools instead of the wholeness of the phenomenon which include the subjective perception not just as a mere impediment but also as a trustful interpreter because there is always two sides on the acoustic coin...