Subwoofer speed is in the room, not the box


First, if you like swarm, that’s fine, please start a thread somewhere else about how much you like swarm.

I want to talk about the impression that subs are fast or slow compared to planar or line sources.

The concern, and it’s correct, is that adding a subwoofer to say a Martin Logan or Magneplanar speaker will ruin the sound balance. That concern is absolutely a valid one and can happen with almost any speaker, not just speakers with tight dispersion control.

What usually happens is that the room, sub and main speakers aren’t integrating very well. Unfortunately for most audiophiles, it’s very hard to figure out exactly what is wrong without measurements or EQ capabilities in the subwoofer to help you.

So, there’s the myth of a small sub being "faster." It isn’t. It’s slower has worst distortion and lower output than a larger sub but what it does is it doesn’t go down deep enough to wake the dragons.

The biggest problems I’ve heard/seen have been excessively large peaks in the subwoofer range. Sometimes those peaks put out 20x more power into a room than the rest of the subwoofer. Think about that!! Your 1000 W sub is putting out 20,000 watts worth of power in some very narrow bands. Of course that will sound bad and muddied. The combination of sub and main speaker can also excessively accentuate the area where they meet, not to mention nulls.

A lot is made about nulls in the bass but honestly IMHO, those are the least of our worries. Of course too many of them can make the bass drop out, but in practicality is is the irregular bass response and the massive peaks that most prevent any good sub from functioning well in a room.

Bass traps are of course very useful tools to help tame peaks and nulls. They can enable EQ in ways you can’t do without it. If your main speakers are ported, plug them. Us the AM Acoustics room mode simulator to help you place your speakers and listening location.

Lastly, using a subwoofer to only fill in 20 Hz range is nonsense. Go big or go home. Use a sub at least at 60 Hz or higher. Use a single cap to create a high pass filter. Use EQ on the subwoofer at least. Get bass traps. Measure, for heaven’s sake measure and stop imagining you know a thing about your speaker or subwoofer’s response in the room because you don’t. Once that speaker arrives in the room it’s a completely different animal than it was in the showroom or in the spec sheet.

Lastly, if your room is excessively reflective, you don’t need a sub, you need more absorption. By lowering the mid-hi energy levels in a room the bass will appear like an old Spanish galleon at low tide.

erik_squires

@deep_333 - Sorry, got distracted by an ad that told me I could cure diabetes with baking soda, so this is how I know that everything on Youtube is real.

Ah, no surprise, the ego has taken over again. When you have the humility to admit that you didn’t know something in life, the possibility of learning something occurs. Until then...keep at it. Any engineer worth half his salt will admit that engineering is a life long process of learning (the humility to admit that one doesn't know sht at specific levels and constantly keeping the possibility of learning open). But, when it comes to all the self proclaimed forum experts, accountants and their giant egos, they already know everything there is to know...and "what they do not know may not ever exist!"...whoop di doo.

 

Anyone that has used a sub without a highpass is doing it wrong. My current speakers have 15” bass drivers and I still highpass at 65hz. If I had better subs I would probably highpass even higher. 
 

… and really…use measurements, why guess. 

The Danny Richie video is interesting. I often find his videos very well done and have a lot of great info. His explanation of speed is interesting, though. First, he comes out and states that the driver output tracking the signal input is not "speed of the woofer". He then spends ten minutes contradicting himself and explaining all of the things he has done to prevent driver ringing or droning, which put in simple words is that the driver output matches the input. The driver starts and stops moving exactly as the signal dictates. That is the reason that servo control exists, so that the driver output matches the signal input. 

Any ringing is bad, whether it be in the box or in the room. It doesn't matter if what is coming out of the driver / box is perfect if the room is mucking it up. There are many errors in setting a sub up that can make matters worse. As hard as it may be for at least one person here to believe, both Danny and Erik can be correct at the same time and have valid points.

Anyone that has used a sub without a highpass is doing it wrong

 

I don’t think it’s IMPOSSIBLE.... but very difficult to do this by ear or based on published specs or measurements. You must figure out what your main speaker is doing in room. I repeat, in room speakers are entirely different creatures. It’s like you go to the store, get a sweet puppy which tries to eat your eyeballs as soon as you get it home.

IF you have a DSP based system, and only do the subwoofer, you often end up wiht very complicated EQ at the transition area, so, practically speaking, yeah it's nigh impossible.