Johncdnt - If the replacement drivers are more sensative then you'd need to compensate for that. I suppose with more sensative tweeters or L Pads or something.
Also I would think that the cabs etc were designed specifically for the B102, no? |
So would an Eminence Red Fang series (3x the cost of B102) make a sound improvement and by how much? Does anyone know what drivers are used in the Pendragons as they look different from the B102 in the Lores? |
The idecco was used by Zu to demo the Omens so the Lores will be fine, don't forget the Zu Souls on special for $999 in the mix.
These speakers are 97+db sensitive and a really easy load as they don't drop below 6 ohms. 40w drive them to sound levels that a "normal" 91db speaker with 200w can achieve.
You'd be surprised with high efficient designs...... It's the quality of the first watt that matters as 90% of your listening will only require 1-2w |
Don't let the price of the Eminence drivers worry you. Being one of the largest driver manufacturers in the world and the b102 a classic means they make 1000s of them for Marshall and Fender and other pro audio oems etc...... Economy of scale |
Has anyone tried to replace the Eminence Legend B102 drivers with something different (e.g. Eminence's other series)? I've wondered how much of an upgrade will the Lore have with the B102 is replaced with a more expensive driver. If it makes a difference, I would ask Eric to give us options to choose what drivers to install. There are several Eminence 10" drivers that are more sensitive than the Legend B102. |
I had 18watts per channel driving them very loud. |
Cymbop. I have had the exact same question. Will the idecco be enough to drive the Lore's at a high volume? |
Question: have Lore or Omen owners ever paired these FRD speakers with low-powered solid state amps? I'm thinking specifically about a 40-watt Peachtree idecco. My father-in-law (not an audiophile, but audio-curious) asked me to put together a $2K 2-channel system that works with all his sources including the cable box, Blu-ray player, and his ipod. The idecco seems a great match for his sources and lifestyle, but clearly its MOSFET amp section is not the finest to to found. I'm thinking that we could make the most of it, though, by pairing it with an efficient FRD. The fact that Peachtree chose to exhibit its Nova (80 watts) with Zu Essences at a show a couple of years ago makes me think that the idecco and Lore combo might not suck (given all the compromises we're making to provide functionality and meet budget.)
Whaddya think? |
I used a bag of lead and sand on top of the Lore's to eliminate cabinet resonance. The imaging was much improved over not having the bags on.
Just a thought until you can do the cabinet tweek.
Genjamon, I knew there was a serious listener in there.8;) |
Zman did get me thinking and motivated to further explore positioning. I did a lot of positioning work a while ago to get the right room reinforcement for quality and quantity bass. Yesterday I gave up the bass quest entirely and embarked on a quest for soundstage depth. I moved the speakers out into the room about 2 feet more and about a foot further from the sidewalls. Indeed, the soundstage depth expanded greatly, and the bass suffered. I think I'll keep it in this configuration for a while, as I have the space with my current setup. It's not as nice and tidy as when the speakers were closer to the corners, but I do like the much much greater soundstage depth. It's helping a lot with both my high quality recordings as well as the lower quality ones - the music has more room to "breath", so the layers of the music aren't compressed on top of each other nearly so much.
As a result, I have re-engaged my subwoofer with room EQ, and while the bass isn't as coherent and will take me a while to tweak until it's just right, it's there in the right quantity to keep the system full-range. I'm not having much trouble with the speakers disappearing for the most part, although I bet some high quality monitors may do a better job of that. I do intend to do the cabinet and driver resonance tweaks, which I am told should reduce the sound of the cabinets and help them to disappear even more. |
Zman, I suppose I would be a casual listener by your definition. I have found a positioning of the Lores in my room that does not have bloated bass at all, has just as articulate of bass as when the speakers were a little farther out into the room, but it goes down to the full 30 hz. Now, as for soundstage, I'm sure you're right that I'm sacrificing soundstage depth. I guess that's a compromise of having the system in my living room. That said, I'm a bachelor, living alone, and have the ability to make of my living room what I want. In this case, I do have quite a lot of room treatment (including absorption panels in front of TV when not watching it), and furniture is comfortably arranged in ways that make it a nice lounge as well as decent sound. Is it fully fully optimized, no, probably not. It's not been compromised for the needs of a family, though!
Also, I totally agree with you about a subwoofer being an excellent tool. In fact, before I had the Lores, I had Hornshoppe Horns, which needed subwoofer support all the way up to probably the 80-100hz range. In that case, I was using a subwoofer along with an active EQ customized for the sweet spot. With the Lores well positioned for quality bass response, I don't feel like I'm lacking anything until I'm sub-30hz without a subwoofer. I'd say that's pretty good, but it does make me curious about the Pendragons, and I wonder if you could get away with less wall reinforcement in the bass area with them.
Ok, that's it for my ranting response. |
Wow, what a thread!!
This thread has convinced me to try out a pair of lores to see what a full range driver based speaker can do.
Though some of you do need to take this thread with a grain of salt and not take it so seriously. This is a fun *hobby* after all. |
Room reinforcement happens in every room. But pushing your speakers closer to the front wall and corners are a compromise. Every wall is a support for bass. But you give up quality to get quantity in doing so.
Bloated bass and you loose the depth of your soundstage.
Thier are serious listeners and cassual listaeners.
A casual listener normaly has his system in the livingroom with a home theater right in the middle of his speakers.
With the furniture placed here and there.
For them, the pushing a speaker back to get bass is ok and works fine.
The serious listener usually has a music room devoted to his system. With room treatments and minimum furniture.
Laser towing and to the inth measuring to get everything as good as possible.
For this person, pushing the speaker closer to the wall is just not an option. He wants the purity of the speaker and will sacrifice bass for it.
Now, if that person wants more bass, the sub-woofer is the answer.
The right sub-woofer I might add.
For some reason their are a lot of people that look down thier nose at a sub-woofer. In fact, they might think thier better than the person that uses a sub because he can push his speaker closer to the wall and not have to use a sub.
The fact is, a sub-woofer is a fantastic tool. It allows me complete control over my bass and I keep the clean bass and deep soundstage that is very important to me.
I am a no comprimise listener that would rather use a tool than to comprimise quality.
The Lore done a lot of things right, but once you've had 20hz clean bass response, the pushing the speaker to the wall just wont do.
This is my rant. |
I can say I'm still very happy with my Lores. I would also like to say that I now understand the full bass response of the Lores after doing a lot of work positioning them - and they DO make right down to about 30 hz if they're getting the right room reinforcement. In my case, it was a matter of just a very few inches placement that made the difference between the bottom being 40hz and 30hz. I don't use a subwoofer for music anymore, no need. I do turn the subwoofer on for movies, though, as those really low frequencies are needed for enough impact.
The dynamics of the Lores are as addictive as their tone and nuance. For this reason, the Pendragons are quite tempting. I'd like even more dynamics without giving up the overall sound of the Lores, and I'm sure the Pendragons go a long way there. But I'm very happy with where I am right now, and not interested in going a different direction for quite some time at last.
Over on one of the audiocircle threads about the Lores, a guy described a series of cabinet and driver frame dampening he did that really improved imaging/clarity. I plan to try that soon, but man I'd be surprised if it could make things that much better.
Are the Lores the best speakers ever - definitely not. Are they worth $10K? I have no idea, as I've never had speakers of that caliber in my system at home. I can say that they're way better than any other speaker I've had in there, including Tyler Acoustics monitors, Hornshoppe Horns, Omega Hemptones, Klipsch Lascalas, and Zu Druids. They don't have the dynamics of Klipsch, nor the complete coherency of the 4" Hornshoppe single drivers, but they have the best combination of tone, dynamics, frequency extension, microdynamics and nuance, large soundstage, and competent imaging of any speaker I've heard in my system. |
Here, here Wsifu!
And a quick response to Cwazz. It is true that some people can be over exited about a product. But I wll say that I've heard several speakers. And with out a doubt the lores or m-mores, and I've heard both are really very good for the money. Not that there are not other products that sound great at that price. But there are some pretty expensive speakers that in my humble opinion are over priced for what you get. I'm glad though that you are an owner and have personal experience with an opinion as opposed to someone who has an opinion on the sound without the experience of the speaker.
On building speakers it's addictive. Even if you build a great sounding speaker that you would be really pleased with keeping. There is always something about trying something different. Or seeing what you can do to improve. Much like owning a speaker. There is no perfect speaker.
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even if we all had the 'identical' make and model gear and played 'identical' sources we would not have identical outcomes. quite simply that is because of the differences in each of our individual situations. we have different rooms, different electrical circuits, etc., and we hear differently. our experience is our personal interaction with the 'objective' reality and the outcome is uniquely our own. it does not exist nor is it relevant without our perceptions. blessed is the person who has clarity of the factors that shape their own perspective and understand and actualize their own preferences without diminishing the validity of any other person's genuineness. i think if you are enjoying the music you must be enjoying your life. forgive my rant. |
Cpapace, I've built some speakers and really enjoyed it. Next on my list was a full range + tweeter, like the speakers being discussed here.
But when you price out the parts to build them, including Eminence full-range drivers, tweeters, "crossover" parts, cabinet materials, veneer, misc. hardware, and so on, you realize that these folks are not making much money selling these things for $800-1000. Compared to many commercial builds, you really get a lot of raw materials for your money. |
like i posted many times before ,, i like my lores i bought the bubinga finish ,, very sharp looking , but ..but the measurements that are posted on the website do not add up , im talking about the low end , they are fine speakers , it is just some went off on how they are worth 10x the price , i did not get that statement then and still dont . saying all that i am keeping my lores , im not selling them off for the next great thing to come along .i just laugh when you here someone make these unbeleiveable claims about any product . thats what i was talking about when i mentioned ,,the hype about these speakers. |
Well said Sebrof. Very good observation. |
Anyone here a speaker builder? My favorite thing to do is to find lost gems that sound better than the price might indicate. I am currently building a set for a friend. I actually am using the same tweeter used in the m-more. Very nice for the price and also using a low cost 10inch woofer. My friends is on a budget and so far the system sounds great. He came over and listened to it. He said his brother just bought a bose system and the setup I'm building just blows away his brothers system. I know! Most of use know Bose just is not very good. But it was neat to see a non audiophile hear a non box store set of speakers and hear the difference.
I shot a frequnecy response yesterday and the crossover does need some refinement, but so far so good. |
Jedinite - I don't believe the numbers add up to support what you're saying. I've seen very few for sale, and of the 3 I listed earlier 2 are planning to buy Tekton again after they sell.
I have seen many more Omens for sale (including mine), although I'm sure there have been many more Omens sold than Lores.
I do agree with what you said about "initially were really excited like when anyone buys something new, raves about them, and then when that newness wears off they buy something else." This will never change. To many, this hobby is all about buying and selling, trying new things.
My personal opinion about you not buying into the hype - You may have lost out on experiencing a really good speaker that is hard to beat for the price.
FWIW - I think it's important for people like cwazz to post and check/balance the banter, else these forums would be no more than advertizing for your latest purchase. If you look at my posts back in April I was trying to check the Tekton homers, until I got a pair for myself. |
For the record, I love the Lore and will buy a new pair when I settle in CA. I have moved several times in my life and it truly sucks. It's a HUGE hassle and things often get lost or damaged. I decided to NOT put myself through that. This time I am selling everything I own and buying new. I will repurchase the Lore and this time swing for the up charge of a different finish. |
I want to make clear that the Lore is a stunning speaker to 40hz. It's not hype on my behalf. But for $1000 used, I'm sure I can find something out there that comes close with a little eye appeal.
And with a sub as bottom end.
It could be that I will look around and test different speakers and come back to a used pair of Lores with some wood veneer. The sonics aren't the issue.
It's just time for a change.
I do want to say that everything that has been said about the Lore is true... Except the 30hz thing. |
zman im guessing he was talkng about me |
I'm kind of agreeing with CWazz. I guess the Lores aren't all they are cracked up to be. Seems like the buyers that got the Lores hype them up and then unload them. The hype they created with their posts allows them to sell the Lores at or close to what they paid. Some at a small loss. If the Lores were so good as mentioned in their posts why upgrade? To me it seems like the buyers of the Lores initially were really excited like when anyone buys something new, raves about them, and then when that newness wears off they buy something else. The speaker just isn't good enough to hold onto it seems. I almost bought into the hype machine. I'm relieved that I didn't. |
Looking to by a speaker for the kids room. Zu Soul looks like fun but can they hold up to prodding? No grills is my concern. |
I have two monitors to start with. The first is the Onix Reference 1. The second is a very lively monitor, the Triangle Titus 202.
I'm pretty sure that the Onix will fill the bill, but the Triangle is such a lively speaker that I just have to try it. If they don't work, I'll sell them and try something else.
Cpapace, I don't understand the comment you made. Could you explain. Maybe I've missed something. |
Zman, wish I wasn't sleeping at the wheel when your Lore came up for sale. Since we're talking Tekton, can someone here help me out. I'm playing the 4.5 in desktop system with a Jolida FX10. I don't like the Electro Harmonix EL84s or their 12AX7s much. So, does anyone have recommendations? I called The Tube Store and was going to purchase the Genelex 84s and 12AX7s, but got talked into a 7189 Northern Electric Tube and wondering if I made a mistake? Well, I'll start finding out in a couple of days. Again anybody have experience with this tube or have other suggestions? I like slightly warm sound that is full. My Cary 280 has it, what can I do to help the little FX10? |
zman ,, what speaker are you going with? |
There goes Mr. one thought again! |
I decided to pick up a really good sub to augment the lower end of the Lore. The Lore has great bass, but lets face it, from 40hz down they roll off pretty quik.
The sub I got has a room correction EQ to correct for room accoustics and give a flat FR to 26hz.
Well, I figured that if I had to help the Lore in the bottom end, I could pick up a killer monitor that would perform with the Lore sonicaly.
One thing I haven't been able to get passed is the looks of the Lore. In satin black it is butt ugly.
With the kind of money I have in my system I want a nice piece of furniture to look at.
That's it! Just going in a different direction with my system. The lore sounds great, but if I have to augment them in the lower end, I might as well get a great monitor that will completely disappear. |
maybe , because they are not living up to all the hype you read on here . |
I see 3 ads right now on AGon for Lores, 2 already sold.
1 guy is upgrading to Tekton Pendragons
1 guy is moving and plans to buy new Lores in white when he gets there (I saw his ad on another forum)
Zman doesn't say why
I'm real happy with mine, but I'd sell them if I thought I could get something better. For the price I think I'll have mine for a long time...but I've said that before. Many times ;) |
I saw a few of you (like zmanastronomy ) were selling your lores? Why |
I have lore speakers and I'm using new integrated from Eastern Electric M88 with them.
Great combination. |
Very helpful...Thanks Sebrof |
Drcruz - The Katz I have are the first version, you can see a picture on my system page. Much different from the ones on the Tekton website.
The Katz are more smooth and do a better job of disappearing, the Lores have more bass. I would guess that many people would prefer the Katz to the Lores. My 2 buddies preffered the Katz to the Omens, for me it was a "depends on my mood and music" thing. We all preferred the Lores over the Katz but not by a whole lot.
I personally wouldn't pair either speaker with a sub, my feeling is that that would defeat the concept of my system - Simplicity. SET + no crossover. Might as well get some crazy multi-way and some big SS amps ;)
Hope this helps, PM me if you have specific questions. |
Sebrof, I see you like your Lores over your Katz Meow. Is your Katz the same as the $1500 dollar pair that's on the Tekton website now. Also, if you paired the Katz w/ a sub would the Lores still be better? What are the differences in sound quality between the Lores and Katz? (I've already read your impressions of Omens vs. Lores) |
I don't think he will bring it down to the introductory price again.
He sells returns for that price now.
The Lore is too popular. |
Has anyone recently contacted Eric to bring the price of the Lore down to what it was before ($850)? |
I want to thank everyone who has participated in this chat since it turned me on to a high efficiency speaker with a benign impedance that sounds really good. I'm not, and have never been in to horn speakers; my wife and I come down on the slighty warm/neutral side of this audio world.
As I listen to the small Tekton 4.5s, which prompted me to purchase the Jolida FX 10 for a desktop system in a small room (office), my ears are blown away by this small combo...and it hasn't broken I yet. Today I hooked up my Cary 280 V12 with 50 watts of single ended triode and Wow! Wow! The little Tektons really came alive. Huge soundstage, I mean extremely wide and deep. Very present and live, voices, male and female large and live, timbre just beautiful, real piano, even the bass got deeper and a tuneful type, not one note. I'm really hazard now, wife too.
Can't wait to order the Lore...thanks all!, |
Re: eminence thing. The Katz 1 has a Fostex driver, so perhaps Eric has something up his sleeve to pull this off. Interesting... |
Utah - Just FYI, I had Klipschorns when I took a chance on Eric's Katz Meow V1 speakers. I have never looked back, I have never missed the KHorns, and I like the Lores even better than the Katz. I didn't realize how much "unforgiving-ness" I was putting up with listening to KHorns ;)
Not sure how the mods to your LSs apply here, but I'd be willing to bet you would not be disappointed with the Lores. |
"My reason for switching is to get a little more forgiving speaker for lower quality recordings"
The lores will be perfect at this. That's an area that is critical for me, because my inventory of "audiophile" recordings is practically nothing. For me, it's all about the emotional experience and the ability to give God the glory. A highly analytical system is not my cup of tea, but with that said, the paradoxical truth about the Lores is their ability to be forgiving but also sound like live music on live recordings. No other speaker I have listened to does this. The P-dragon does it as well. Maybe it's an Eminence thing... |
I think the Lore's will be a great fit for my system. I'm currently using highly modified Lascala's with an NOS Valves 45ST amp using KT88s and a Juicy Music Blueberry Extreme preamp.
This system should be a match made in heaven for the Lore's. I just hope it isn't a step down since I've put a lot of work to get it where it's at now.
My reason for switching is to get a little more forgiving speaker for lower quality recordings. The Lascala's are very revealing with said recordings, but they sound heavenly with quality recordings.
I just want to utilize a greater portion of my collection. |
Yeah, I've been trying to give Cwazz every benefit of the doubt, but at this point I'm just not sure he's really interested in seeking the solution to his issues.
Despite this, let me share an experience I had toying around the other week. I had found that speaker placement mattered essentially in getting enough bass response for me with the Lores. I have an Ampino, which has volume control, but was also using a preamp/buffer. I thought I would experiment with just using the amp and eliminate the preamp.
I found that details were somewhat enhanced, and greater air, but to the detriment of full-bodied instrument sounds, and most importantly, BASS!! Putting the preamp back in there brought back the bass extension, musical drive, while only modestly reducing detail and air by the slightest bit. In fact, I am not so sure it was not simply the psycho-acoustic effects of more bass energy that I was hearing and not actual reduction in detail.
Cwazz, and everyone else, having the right mating of electronics and speakers is ESSENTIAL when you have high expectations and you're playing with this level of speaker quality. |
Adcom???please . IAny ways Ii stand by what I say , priny\t in here . Cpapace just read all the post and you should get the idea where I am coming from .Gpower , good luck in your qeust , whatever that maybe . |
Good Grief Cwazz. Give is a rest. It's simply getting annoying. |
Cwazz - boy your post is just a but sarcastic, is it not? Where is the resentment coming from? You sound like I moved from a Tekton to a different type of speaker... I simply moved up the line... similar sonics just more of everything.
Also, here's another tip for you: the upgrade was funded by a 95% return on my Lores, and a 50% downgrade on my amp... and it worked out just as planned - a very nice improvement indeed.
Take notes my friend... it's not about what you have or can afford, it's about what you can do w/ what you have to get what you are looking for... ; )
I am a motivated person in everything I do, and where this is a will, there is always a way. Time for you to stop the "woe is me I listened to someone's advice and bought the wrong speaker", and take our suggestions about changing your front end. Your posts do not bear fruit and you seem to ignore any help and instead post sarcasm. Please do not hold me to such high standards. |
CWazz sure has a way w/ words. Charlie - glad you chimed in because I wanted to let you know I tried an Adcom amp with the Pendragons, and I could not believe how much better of a match my 12 watt Xindak EL84 amp is! In fact, the 12 watt tube amp is giving me much better bass than the 150 watt Adcom and no doubt a much sweeter sound in the mid range and top end. I am now fully inclined to tell you that your Counterpoint amp is likely the issue!
These speakers will play nice and loud with transistor but really come into their own w/ tubes!
See the reviews section of this site and you will know what happen to my Lores - I jumped on the P-dragons while Eric had the intro price on. I am thrilled I did. |
