Zu Druid questions

I've had the Druids for nearly 2 years and the importance of properly setting the base gap cannot be overemphasized. Right now I have the gap set at about 1/16th of an inch (using a stack of paper under each speaker). This is contrary to the owner's manual instructions, but I confirmed this setting with Sean at Zu. First, with a bottom port, if you have carpet you should put a piece of butcher block or acrylic under the speaker, to start with a precise flat surface. Setting the gap correctly will make the speakers sound totally different. The treble will sound like it extends beyond the walls, the transients will speed up like lightning and the resolution will increase dramatically. If the gap is not set right, the speakers will be quite unremarkable and you may have no idea what you are missing.

Jack, thanks for your detailed answer about the Cornwalls. Those should be nice for you. Sounds like I should check that model sometime just for fun.

Steve

Jack don't worry too much about the specifics, just know that a Zu speaker will never drop, and will stay a stable load, and as for 4 or 8 ohm taps thats fine with a 12 ohm speaker, via tubes it is different than solid state, the 8 ohm taps would most likely sound best and run just fine, also most tube amps don't change power output at all between the 4 and 8 ohm taps, if its a 40 tube its 40 at either tap, normally a solid state is 40 w at the 8 ohm for example and 80 w at the 4 ohm...

But even solid state amps like 12 ohm loads, but might not be optimal all the time I would assume cause your not getting the full juice out of it cause it never has a reason to break a sweat, but I don't know, some amps are just better being driven harder, Class A tube amps are full output all the time even not driving a music signal thats why they probably sound the best, but then again thats why they run hotter too.

Undertow, thanks for the explaination. I realize with most modern day amp's power increases as impedance drops, but I had/have no idea how they respond as the load increases. I've never seen this discussed, even with all the attention the Zu's are getting.

I would assume it's the opposite and maybe this is why the Odyssey performed so poorly with these speakers, but was very good with the Ushers. Also, the ability to drive low impedances is supposed to be one of the main advantages of newer amps. Maybe it's time to try a classic Marantz or the like?

I still don't understand how a tube amps differs in this regard. Most tube amps I've looked at have 4 or 8 Ohm taps, but I've not seen one for 12. Why/how do they differ from solid state?

This is the first 12 Ohm speaker I've owned so I'm in unchartered territory here.

Macrojack, thanks for the suggestion. I've been itching to try an integrated tube amp on the cheap. However, I want remote control, inputs for CD, Phono, DVDP and good power, but have been trying to stay under a grand. This is tough. Use of an outboard pre may be my only option, but if I do this I misght just as well go with separates. The pre will add exra cost not to mention I really want to keep this bedroom system as simple as possible.

I'm probably being unrealistic, but am still looking. Any other suggestions?

Jack = Try an Onix SP-3 on your Cornwalls. You can find one for between $500 and $600 on Audiogon. It's an integrated amp with two inputs. If you need more than that, use an inexpensive passive preamp as a switchbox. You will be very impressed with the results this gives you. If you decide not to keep it for any reason, sell it for what you paid.

" I said from the begining that Zu's efficieny ratings are hyped and I stand by this statement. The output levels were set just 1 click less to obtain the same output as my old Usher's which were rated 87dB @ 1W. "

The Zu's are a 12 ohm load, ushers are probably 6 ohm even dipping down to 4 and below... With the mid line solid state amp you are using this makes sense with 1 click less.. The Zu's demand a well rounded tube or Hybrid amp to acheive the best effiency results I belive with your 12 ohm load. Also depending on the power amp the ushers probaly doubled the output power of the amps automatically, the Zu's will be only drawing probaly 1 watt to every 10 watts the ushers were, the amps just did not drive them louder because it had no reason too with such a light load..

So if you took a 1 watt tube amp and used it on the druid and the same 1 watt on the usher, you will than find out 1 click up would not do it to push the usher comparably. Problem is your solid state amp is automatically putting out more power to the input gain from your processor, you just dont know it... Push the usher for about 15 min at 100 DB and the amp would probably be nice and toasty doubling down power compared to the easy 12 ohm load of the Druid, which would keep it cold.. I know you had the odyssey, it would run warmer for sure with the usher vs. the druid...

So your comparison is flawed, also as for the cornwalls, the Horns are Simply Louder, this is because they Are amplified by the HORN in mids and Tweets.. That has nothing to do with the efficiency of the speaker, the Compression drivers are 98 or 99 db I believe in the cornwall, I use to own them, and then are Horn loaded which increases volume a lot compared to a 101 db straight paper driver.

Squeegybug, the CW's are indeed very different. I've also owned the LaScalla's and they're exactly as you described. Everyone I know replaced the stock crossover's to tame these and they had very little bass, if any, below ~ 50Hz or so. I consider a sub essential with these speakers, but not so for my Zu's. I did like my LaScalla's very much though when played loud.

The K-Horns to me sounded just like the LaScalla's with better bass when positioned properly in a corner, but I never owned these.

The Corwall's on the other hand have a much more subdued mid-range and bass is one of their strengths. They don't have great bass extension, but it's much better than the LaScalla's and is very strong to at least what the Zu's are capable of. Just a much more balanced sound (compared to the LS that is, not the Zu's).

I have a large room with open floor plan and vaulted ceilings. This space just gobbles up everything my SVS 20-39 sub can throw out. Even with the sub I have a suck out at ~ 90-120Hz range. The CW's filled the room with all the bass one could ask for and put my sub to shame down to ~ 40Hz. Kick drums and the like are handled with total authority and sound as lifelike as I've heard from any speaker. If ever there was a rock speaker, these are it.

The CW's are also very efficient and for this reason many use small tube amps with very little power to drive them, which I think is a big mistake. It take's some good power to get those 15's pounding like they should and in my experience the more power you feed them, the better.

BTW, the Zu's and CW's have identical efficiency ratings, yet when I measured them it wasn't even close. I had the output level of my processor set to +1 to acheive 75dB at my listening positon with my Zu's, but for Klipsch it was set a -6 to achieve the same level.

I said from the begining that Zu's efficieny ratings are hyped and I stand by this statement. The output levels were set just 1 click less to obtain the same output as my old Usher's which were rated 87dB @ 1W.

Don't get me wrong, the CW's will not be replacing my Zu's and are not gonig to be used with them. My Zu's are used in my main system which I use for HT as well as two channel audio. I also bought the Zu center.

They're going to be used in a 2nd two channel system I'm putting together in another room. I always considered the Klipsch to be one of the most revealing speakers I've heard, but they just don't match the Zu's. The Zu's are just in another league when it comes to tonal accuracy. As discussed, they just sound right and have a balance few speakers can match. My Zu's are here to stay. :0) I enjoy both, but in very different ways.

BTW, my wife loves the Klipsch. She rarely comments on my audio changes and generally could care less. However, when she came in from work and saw the CW's, she said "see, these sound the best." The only time she ever played my stereo was back when I had the CW's before. I would come home and she would have the stereo cranked while doing her house work. She never turned it on again after I sold the CW's, even to this day. However, when I asked if she wanted me to move these into the main room, she just smiled and said "I don't think so. Too big!".

Now I just have to figure out what gear works well with the big guys. I used Adcom before, but it wasn't really a great match, just available where I was stationed.

Jack, I can hardly imagine two more opposite sounding speakers than Druids and heritage Klipsch. I've used/owned La Scala, Heresy, and KHorns, and those compression squawkers and squreamers always gave me a case of 'icepicks in the ears' with most modern recordings, especially since the bass is so subdued/out-of-proportion at normal listening levels. I always ended up wiring up my own crossovers and bi/tri-amping to try to get some bass into them without having to run at 100 dB.

Maybe the Cornwall is different. Just curious why/how you are trying to mate them with Druids? But I know about dragging up old favorites from years gone by. I have tried a few times to resurrect my old Celestion Dittons and get them to fit into current systems -- with no luck.

Steve

Thanks so much for your cable opinions. They are very helpful. BTW, I just picked up a pair of Cornwall II's. Haven't heard them in years, but they are of my all time favorites. I can't wait to see how they match up with the Zu's.

I had all zu cables at this point, on the definition the Libtec was the most rounded and smooth sounding.. The wax was nothing too special honestly.. The Ibis for much more money can be a bit sharper, but over time they might be the best, but again at way more money.

Jack, the short version is: We preferred the Libtec.

Of course, it will depend on the type of sound the listener wants. For us, we compared them directly and pretty easily picked our favorite. That was using the Druid Mk4's and Bel Canto only, in our rooms. Obviously if using different equipment and rooms and ears, other cables might work differently. Or not.

I had the Libtec first, used for a while in the HT then moved them to the studio. I then bought Wax and put in the HT room. We could immediately tell the difference, but wanted to get some run in time and make sure before final decisions.

After several weeks of using both, I ran a single cable of each type to two Druids set side by side in the recording studio. This was mono only, which I have found usually helps focus on the tonal differences in equalizers, which is what cables really are anyway. Results might vary a bit in overall stereo image, etc. with a pair of speakers, but I think not enough to outweigh the frequency response of the singles in my experience.

Now both cables are fairly long -- Libtec is 12 ft, Wax is 15 ft. This might affect the responses, but actually should provide even more sensitivity to variations. Playback was an ordinary HHB studio CD player/recorder going through Lavry Blue for DA then to Presonus Central Station passive switcher/attenuator. Interconnects are decent grade Straightwire 75 ohm S/PDIF coax and superb Belden 89207 Teflon plenum balanced cable that I made myself. I've used that chain plenty, it is reliable and has transparent sound quality.

So, they are both nice speaker wires. My wife/studio partner/singing partner and I took turns switching and listening blind to each, up close and from various distances. Turns out that listening blind didn't last for long, the differences were obvious.

We played a variety of excellent productions that I almost always use for comparisons -- The great Bob Ludwig's *master*piece of Dire Strait's 'On Every Street'; Emmylou & Lanois' collaboration on 'Stumble Into Grace'; Van Morrison's 'Back on Top'; and The Wailin' Jennys first album '40 Days'. Plus some material that I've recorded and a current mastering project for someone else.

Lynnie and I occasionally have some contradictory opinions on audio choices, sometimes completely 180 degrees. Some of it is gender related, there is no question that females hear differently than males. And I take advantage of her musical training and excellent hearing to balance my own opinions.

Well, this shootout was unanimous. It was immediately obvious when switching that the Libtec just presents more emotion. And that is the bottom line for us.

Wax is a great cable, beating out the other options I still have left around here (Kubala-Sosna and Tara Prism). It is a 'dry' sound compared to the Libtec and those others. Wax also reveals the most powerful dynamics I've ever heard, the drum hits on those reference recordings were really special. I think the overall tone is a bit forward, seems to have almost a reverse smiley curve around 1 kHz. This can really punch those drums to the front.

So the sound of Wax with the Druids is very detailed in the midrange, can get almost a bit 'honky' if the recording has some of that already. But not in a bad way. It's a pretty unique sounding cable in my experience, and I liked much of its character, particularly with vocals. You know how it is trying to describe sound, especially cable effects. I'll just say it was a strong, open, dry sound, with no hyped bass or treble and a slightly forward midrange. Can make vocals and drums sound larger than life, brings out the wood in acoustic instruments. I did not think it was a completely accurate presentation of the raw recordings I have done of us singing and playing, but it was a fun variation.

Libtec is pretty much the opposite. A bit lush, but not overdone. Definitely not hyped. Clear and beautiful, with the most remarkable intensity in the midrange. This cable brings out texture and resonance and harmonics, feels like I am hearing the live sources. It was hard to do A-B comparisons with the Libtec -- when switching to it, we didn't want to switch back. We just got captured by the emotional energy in the music and wanted to keep listening. I wish Zu could bundle these with every Druid sold, they are that wonderful in bringing out the full response of the already outstanding Druid speaker.

Hope that helps. Just our opinions of course, but that is all we have to work with every day.
And remember, we are unique, just like everyone else :)

Steve

Squeegybug, what differences did you hear between your two Zu speaker cables? I'm considering both.

You are welcome Macrojack, and my thanks to you as well for all your reviews and discussions of the Zu speakers. I might not have been as willing to consider them without pioneers like you doing the trailblazing, I hope you keep it up. But I'm from the Show-Me state, and had to experience it myself to really know how they would suit my needs. As I do every piece of audio equipment I ever comment on. Wish more folks would just do that simple thing, and not have to argue about why they cannot work. Their loss.

I can honestly say that in the short time I have had the Druids, they have helped me get mastering contracts that I otherwise would not have. The ability to hear and adjust the midrange is just about the most important factor for creating the tone of the final CDs, and the Druids are the best at this I've ever found. No hyped treble that might leave me guessing at the top end. And the clean, fast bass response is the finishing touch, offers such a realistic presentation that allows me to shape sounds that will translate well on a wide range of playback systems.

I've heard what the competition on my latest project were producing from their 'multi-crossover self-powered super detailed reference monitors', usually with a !hole! where a midrange driver should be. Some of those samples were pretty painful to my ears. And I am also guilty of doing similar things in the past.

I am so done with that type of audio reproduction. The Zu's just present the honest emotion and allow me to keep that feeling plus the real dynamics of the music. Whether just listening or while polishing the mixes to a smooth, vintage, analog sound. I should probably shut up about that, will lose my advantage if the other guys catch on. ;)

Steve

Thanks for lending so much credibility, Steve. I've been flailing away in the wilderness fighting editorial suppression and uninformed naysayers for well over a year on the topic of Zu Druids. These speakers are so much bigger in performance than anyone would guess from looking at them. I moved up to the Definitions about a year ago but I still consider retreating to the Druid because they offer more bang for the buck than any other speaker I have noticed including my Defs.

It's really cool seeing the Druids standing over that sophisticated recording console. Quite a testimonial.

I will certainly agree that these Druids are the finest sounding speakers we've ever heard. Just amazing emotional presentation, at any volume level.

I'm running Bel Canto eVo 200.2 amps with each of my two pairs of Druids. Could not be happier with this combination.

Libtec cables on one pair and Wax on the other. By all means try the Zu cables, they are outstanding. My old favorite Kubala-Sosna went away quick after trying the Zu.

Both sets are on carpet. I had machined some 1" aluminum plates for bases, but found no extreme difference in my rooms from just spiking to the floor, so that is where they live now.

I did finally put a Hsu subwoofer back into each system, may upgrade those to Mini Method one day. But they are not doing much, just a touch of gain at 40 Hz and below.

I think I mentioned that after trying the Druids for movies, I ended up just removing my center and surround speakers from the (formerly 5.1) HT room, am only using the single pair of Druids and the sub. Much better sound for all movies, TV, and music, for my tastes.

Shadhorne, I was reminded that you asked for pictures, I had forgotten this thread. Here is the HT room:

http://www.sunsetwind.com/Druid_GS_30/100_2555_30c.jpg

and here is the recording studio:

http://www.sunsetwind.com/Druid_GS_30/100_2560_30c.jpg
http://www.sunsetwind.com/Druid_GS_30/100_2561_30c.jpg

Along with the sheer joy of listening to the Druids for pleasure, there is *no* doubt, these are the best mixing/mastering monitors I've ever used. Better than my PMC, SLS, Tannoy, Dynaudio, B&W, Celestion, whatever. So easy to hear the qualities of the sound. And never any listening fatigue.

Steve

The Red Wine SS amps are outstanding with the Druids.

Morphius lives!!!! :0)

Undertow is right about the Odyssey not being a good match. I talked to the folks at Zu about this amp and they think it has to do with too much damping. Normally a good thing, but not so with the Zu's aparently.

Armstrod, I'm using an Acurus A200 for the mains and a Acurus 200X3 for center and rears. I can't imagine a much better match for these speakers as far as solid state amps go. Maybe an Aragon??

I would still like to experiement a bit with different cables and IC's. I'm quite happy with what I have, but you just never know.

It seems practically everyone that owns the Zu's are using tube based equipment. I too would like to try some tube equipment some day.

Jack_dotson,

What amp did you end up with? Did you stay with the Acurus, or go to something else?

"Welcome to the real world" (Morphius) You have been awakened from the audio matrix :-)
Now I see why you were selling the odyssey, definitely not the amp in the end for those speakers..
Good luck

I've been living with my Druids for the past couple of months now so I thought I would give a quick update.

Forget everything I said about the soundstage, details, etc. Everyone said these speakers take some time to really open up and they do.

I just can't believe how good these speakers are. It took me awhile to get them set-up properly and to find the right amp, but it's certainly paid off.

With the 60 day in home trial I say run, don't walk. Awesome! Just awesome!

I also added the Zu center which is an almost perfect match from my Druids.

To Shadorne -

Hey, thanks for the welcome. It was my first post here, I've mostly hung out on recording forums. But I have been checking Agon for a while since getting interested in the Zu products, I appreciate everyone's good information about these speakers.

Sorry I haven't figured out the forum options to reply/quote to you directly (if there are any?). So, I'll just write...

I can't get photos of the living room setup right now, since the Druids have been moved to the recording studio for some more evaluation as mixing/mastering monitors.

So that is the reason for the additional pair, not for surround. Although I bet 4 Druids would be a great setup for surround. I'll try to get some pics for you when I get the new ones installed.

I came on a little strong with the "hyped" comments. I wouldn't want to imply that PMC monitors are anything less than excellent in their overall performance. They are remarkable speakers in every way, especially when compared to their studio monitor competitors, and I was thrilled to find and use them for quite a while.

It's just that they present more of the strong, detailed sound typical of high quality reference speakers, and that general sound is such a dramatic contrast to the beautiful, effortless tone of the Zu Druids. A direct comparison is the really the only way to highlight that difference.

No guarantees yet that the Druids will hold up against the PMC in the studio. So far, I have had to make a lot of adjustments in my listening approach, since the reproduction is so different. And as always, placement in the mixing room is critical, so I have been doing quite a bit of experimenting there.

I can say that the midrange and bass are incredibly organic and refreshing on the Druids, after so many years of working with "ultra clear" monitors. I can now easily hear and *feel* changes such as equalizer adjustments of 1/3 dB, compression attack/release, reverb/delay settings, etc. All are much more obvious. The difference in treble response is requiring some unlearning, but I'm liking what I am discovering.

I have found that some tracks previously rejected when listening on the PMC now sound great on the Druids. I will know more after I finish a variety of sample mixes.

I even played some plugged-in acoustic guitar and electric bass directly through the mixer into the Druids, and they are outstanding for that. I'm almost thinking of taking them to a live gig this weekend to use for PA mains.... but realistically they are not really suited for road use with their exposed components. I could see making some cabinets for them if it works out, though.

Steve

I tried my Zu's with 18" tiles and moved them out into the room and did not achieve better results. I didn't have the Tiles on spikes, just setting on top of the carpet using the weight of the speaker to push them down.

In my room the bass extension/output suffered. I installed the short rounded type spikes and tried different heights. Nothing worked well.

I now have them positioned 10' apart (inside to inside), 2' from the rear wall to the back of the speaker (closest point/inside of speaker) and the gap between the top of the carpet (long spikes installed) and the bottom of the speaker base set @ only 1/8".

I've also noticed that small changes to the tow-in makes huge differences. I have them positioned where they point almost directly at my ears. Towed out too much and they become very distant and hollow sounding.

I also changed the amp I'm using from my Odyssey Stratos Extreme (one of my favorite amps) to a Acurus A200 X 3 that I was using for center and surround duties.

I gave up some resolution and detail for sure, but the mid bass is much fuller and bass extension is better as well. Funny thing is this amp sounded very hard with my Ushers, but is pretty good with the Zu's. Not the final stop here, but better.

I am very happy and excited that with the right equipment things will only get better.

We're going to take vacation in about a week, but when we return I'll be putting my Usher-6381's, Usher X-616 center and Odyssey up for sale.

I plan to purchase the Zu center, a new tube based CDP (maybe the Raysonic 128 or something similar), and a new amp or integrated amp if needed. Will have to see how the CDP works out first.

The Zu's are worth building around and that's for sure. I just hope my wife's heart can take it. ;0)

The mini method sub is one of the fastest in the west, and is of course made by zu to match the speed and powerful raw tone of the druids. It is a little pricey, I believe retail is 1500.00, but if you need the extra power down low its not that hard to get it as long as you stick with Zu's designs along with your druids.

I am a musician and recording studio owner, and these Druids are just eerie in their ability to reproduce the sensation of a live performance.

Squeegybug,

Any chance of some pics of your setup? I assume you used the spiked, hypy and annoying PMC's in your studio (they seem to be popular in some pro circles, although I have rarely heard them described quite the way you put it).

You have another pair of Zu Druids on order, are you planning to build a surround system based on Zu Druids? Not needing a sub (as you describe) might make this a system of exceptional quality and yet exceptional value too (good subs are far from cheap).

Please provide some pics and welcome to the forums - your first post, I believe?

Thank you very much for your detailed and fast response Ken! At this point I think that I might be trying the Gede/Libtec combo and see how they work.

Thanks again
Krausz

Krausz,

I have not tried the Zu IBIS or Varial..I bought the Libtecs from a memeber who upgraded to the IBIS cable and in our chat, he mentioned (quite profoundly) that the Libtecs were so very close to the IBIS in his system, that it was not a very big step sonically...just cost$$$ wise for him. He also said the same for the Gede's vs. the Varial. Now, Im not saying "I" would not hear any difference in my system or that the IBIS is not worth the price..dont get me wrong, just that I am extremely happy with the current cabeling used. I also tend to think of my system as one which is more modest and less all out..thus, I dont think I should put Zu's absolute best with my gear. Kind of keeping a price/performance ratio so to speak. But, I certainly wouldn't mind trying them if the opportunity came along.

As for the Druid set up. I used the thickness of one cd jewel case for the gap under the Druids.That worked out the best for my set up sonically.

I would think any rather hard surface under the Druids will work well, and surely better than soft carpet. I have seen several guys use anything from wood boards, or the Druids placed on hardwood flooring..to more expensive marble or granite slabs such as I use.. (mine are 18x18x 3/4" marble slabs) Your set up sounds good with the flooring you described.Should work fine.

Best--Ken

Hello Ken,

I see you are using Gede interconnects and Libtec speaker cables. Have you also tried the Varial and the IBIS and you prefered these cables?

For finding the right gap, do you use the hight of one CD case or two? Do you think it is also makes sense to try a hard base under the Druids if I have no carpet under them but a hard compound surface (I don't know its name, usually used in banks or offices with heavy traffic)?

Thanks,

I wouldn't use the carpet spikes. Follow Kehut's advice and create a "false floor". Spike a hard tile through the carpet and use that for the speaker base. The tuning will never be optimized on carpet.

I did it both ways and it was no comparison.

Jack, thanks for the review. Two weeks ago I wrote almost the exact same words in a review I sent to Sean!

Like you, it took me a while to "get them". My first response was very critical, and in direct A-B comparison after listening to my PMC, the Druids sounded dull and flat.

Then I switched back to the "technically accurate audiophile speakers" and... they were now spiky, hyped, annoying.

Back to the Druids, and ahhh. They had me.

Realistic, musical, captivating, and fun. I am a musician and recording studio owner, and these Druids are just eerie in their ability to reproduce the sensation of a live performance.

Wonderful speakers. I sold my PMCs immediately.

I also have mine on hard surfaces, spaced 10 mm with the rounded tip supports. The short spikes, if that is what you got with yours, are not nearly long enough to reach through most carpets and pads. Zu will send you a set of longer spikes if you ask, if you want to use that method.

After listening without a sub, I fired up my pair of Hsu to fill up that supposedly "missing" lower octave. Yuck.

Subs had always worked great with all other speakers I've had in here over the years. But not now, they were detracting from the clear tonality of the Zu bass.

I took the subwoofers completely out of the room.

Mine are not far out from the walls, and are not spaced in an ideal alignment. Doesn't matter... they sound spectacular anyway.

I've used the Druids with several amps -- Carver M-1.5t, Denon solid state, McIntosh MC225 tube, and Bel Canto eVo. The Bel Canto demolished the others, for musical integrity, frequency response, and resonance.

Have fun with them. I've already ordered a second pair :)

Steve

its humor....after all, this is another zu thread

Jaybo, The Ushers are very good. Ive owned 2 pairs.. But, classics? come on really?

your ushers are classics

Ah...so you dont have the Druids placed on something hard like a slab or granite base? This is important to do, since it will focus and tune the down firing slot loaded area under them. Carpet will only diffuse and make the bass weak, wooly and soft. Take a look at my system pic and see what I mean. The base's make a dramatic difference.

Its a shame you cant get them out further than 2 feet..but we have to work around what we have.

My room is 19x22x8 and opens into a hallway/ dining area. The 845 amp puts out 18W and is more than enough for my set up. I didnt use this amp with the Ushers, but used several such as Manley Stingray, a modded Jolida 502A, McIntosh 6100 integrated and a Plinius SA 250 on the 81's at one point (first amp used on the 81's when they were new) All with good results. But, as mentioned previously. If you can run a SET amp at some point..by all means do it!

Enjoy!

Ken

If I were to compare them to my Ushers (CP-6381) and describe them in audiophile terms, they would not hold up.

They don't have the bass extension or detail, they don't image as well, don't have the soundfield width or depth, don't have the separation or air around the instruments, the highs are not as extended and are some what reticent

Jack_dotson (Threads | Answers)

Interesting, because when I re-read my comments above on the speaker measurements your description matches entirely what would be expected. Perhaps measurements are worth something...not much but they do offer some guidance.

Bottom line, IMO; if your a music lover you will like these speakers. If your an audio system lover you might not.

This is something the measurements are unable to quantify. Perhaps the most important aspect of any speaker for many music lovers and shows why this is such a successful speaker.

Enjoy and Congratulations! Thx for the forthright review.

Ken, thanks so much. Perhaps they will open and surpass the Ushers in my set-up as well, but right now they don't in the areas mentioned. As you said, different equipment, room, etc.

What amazes me is that I don't consder them as good in all these areas, but still like them so much better. I realize this probably makes no sense what so ever, but it's just how it is. I obviously could never be a professional author or reviewer. :0)

I read much about these speakers before making the plunge and did set them using the CD case. I've got a thick carpet and pad and barely had enough threads on the spikes to get the separation I needed. I still need to experiment with this gap, but figured I'll give them the proper break-in first.

The tow-in you use sounds exactly how I chose to place mine as well. Zu's recommendation was to get them as far apart as possible and point them at the listening position.

I have mine spaced 10' apart, 2' from the rear wall to the back of the speakers (my living room is my listening room, can't move them out any further), and 14' to my listening position.

I have a large entertainment center between the speakers. This obviously will effect the depth, imaging, etc., but it will do so equally for both pairs of speakers.

Did you also use your tube equipment with the Usher's? If so, maybe they didn't take as well as my Odyssey. Who knows? Once again, it's the synergy. You described the Usher's sound as laid back, but this certainly is not the case with my rig. I was looking for ways calm them down a bit.

I'm curious to know how big your room is and how much power that SET amp puts out. I have another thread going in the amp forum as I have been considering a integrated amp with HT by-pass, tube amp, tube CDP, etc.

I would also like to try the Zu sub at some point, but I think I need to fill other priorites first (Zu center speaker for HT).

The important thing is that I have speakers I'm just thrilled about. Everything from here out is just icing on the cake.

Now I just need to get my Usher's up for sale so I can by some more toys. ;0)

Jack,

Appreciate your post regarding your initial perspective of the Druids sound. Thanks for sharing.Its obvious you hear some of what they do very well in terms of harmonic coherency and tonal truthfullness.

I find it interesting also your noting that at this point they wouldn't hold up to the Ushers in terms of bass extension (agree with that, hands down)..but in terms of "bass detail.imaging, soundfield width or depth,seperation or air around the instruments" to para quote... I found just the opposite in my experience//The Ushers were way too "hi-Fi", laid back, and were quite image challanged compared to the huge soundstage and depth of the Druids..Not to disagree with your findings, as your system and room are different than mine of course as well as equipment..

I will say that paired with a very good SET amp such as my Dared 845..the match is heavenly and just blows past anything I had with the Ushers at any point.

I suspect( and as you rightly mention) you need lots of break-in time and tweeking. Its critical (Very critical in fact) to size the gap at the base plates so allow the bass to work properly. Too much gap = bass overhang and is un-tuneful..to little= lack of bass and thin sound. Get the gap right and its well balanced, tuneful and just right. I used the jewel case of a cd to adjust to its height..very much like a feeler guage..this way I knew I was accurate and matched. Make sure they are at least 4 or more ft from the front wall..this really get them a huge soundfield and depth. In my set up..I towed them just to the outside of my ears..I could just see the inner sides of the speakers as I sat in the sweet spot.In my set up..this "locks" me in so-to-speak.Excellent!

Last week,I added Zu's mini method and I am thrilled with it. This will really put them in the killer catagory IMO. Seamless agumentation in the low end.

Dont be timid to try a good SET amp..Thats where the Druids shine. Having heard them with several SS and El-34 based amps were okay..but nothing compared to a true SET amp's sound. Its there youll find the sweetness of the Druids in the soundstage, depth and imagaing dept.

All this said..Let me congratulate you on your purchase and wish you many years of enjoyment with them.

I just found a nice pair of Quads to play with ( always wanted them!!)..Ill set them up for awhile, but I know Ill likely keep the Druids for what they are capable of, even if the Quads sound excellent, theres something very special about the Zu's in my room!

Best,
Ken

I've had the Druids in my system for three days now. They are different from any other speaker I've heard. When hearing them for the first time I was not impressed. It sounded like they were distant, no bass (didn't have the spikes installed), and just bland.

My initial reaction was that I couldn't see how anyone could like these speakers. But, then things started to change. I don't know why and have no idea how to explain it.

I played them very loud for a good period of time and they seemed to just open up. I started to hear the magic others have raved about. Voices and instruments have a realness that I've not experienced before.

As expected, the bass is not extended and it's obvious the bottom octave is missing. Wierd thing is I could care less. The bass is there and sufficient for most music. As a matter of fact, it's much better than I expected. I used my SVS sub (not a good sub for music) cut @ 40Hz, but found I prefered not to use it.

If I were to compare them to my Ushers (CP-6381) and describe them in audiophile terms, they would not hold up.

They don't have the bass extension or detail, they don't image as well, don't have the soundfield width or depth, don't have the separation or air around the instruments, the highs are not as extended and are some what reticent, they look cheap in comparison, etc. etc. And, for these reasons I fully understand why many do not find what they're searching for.

However, what they are is dynamic, musical, and real. They make music fun again! It sounds like your listening to the real thing and not a stereo system. Just incredible! Once I start listening I don't want to stop.

I like them very much right now and if they're going to improve as they break in, then all the better. I've tried them with every type of music and liked it all. Bad recordings still sound like bad recordings, but maintain the realness. I think this is what others have described as accurate tone. Not sure what the correct term is, but I like what I hear.

I think their stated efficiency is a bit exagerated. They are rated ~ 13 dB higher in efficiency then my Ushers, but in reality they play only slightly louder with the volume at the same level. Perhaps this is because of the much higher impedance. I don't know, but I really really don't think I could use a low powered tube amp in my room.

I'll do an in-depth review and post in the review section when they're fully broken in. I just wanted to follow up with my initial observations.

Bottom line, IMO; if your a music lover you will like these speakers. If your an audio system lover you might not.

Mine will not be going back and the Ushers will be up for sale. And I really like the Ushers.

Shandorne, thanks, but it's not really that big of a risk. They have a 60 day in home trial and if I don't like them all I lose is shipping cost.

I will indeed be sorry to see the 2.3i's gone. They're a very special speaker for sure and one of my all time favorites. But, they were detrowned by my 6381's and as I said, we'll see how the Druids match up.

I wish I had the money to try everything and keep most.

You know how it goes. Always looking/listening. One day I will find the holy grail.

Also still looking for the "right" CDP, pre-amp, etc. but, that's another story. :0)

Can't wait to hit the lotto!!

Congratulations. I look forward to reading your review of the Zu's (please?). I certainly enjoyed the review you did of the Veritas 2.3i - judging from that review I expect you will be rather sorry to see them go.

Great to see that you have such confidence in the comments here. I have only once ordered a speaker without an audition of the specific model and I based my decision on the speaker user list (well known musicians) and knowledge of the manufacturers other designs rather than a forum thread. Kudos to you, as they say "Nothing ventured nothing gained!"

Thanks Ken. And yes, they do have the 60 day trial period listed as well. After reading the add again, I do see that they are the version IV's too.

Looks to be a really good deal. We'll have to see how they stand up against my 6381's.

If there as good as I think, I might just end up keeping both and starting a second system for two channel only.

Congrats Jack!...They are the latest Druids. Zu is selling the remaining stock of matte black and will be going to gloss black production as well as the other colors. But, the matte finish has ended, thus this sale it appears. I dont think the 60 day refund applies(I didnt see that it the ad... could be wrong on that..) however you can verify that with Zu. Either way, you can always sell them for your paid price(or close to it)..let us know how they sound. I believe Zu breaks them in for ~100 hours in-factory, but you will definitely want to get at least 200 hours logged on them to sound very good.

regards,
Ken

OK Guys, I already took the plunge. I was looking at speakers on ebay and found that Zu had a limited number of the Druids on sale for just two grand so I jumped on it.

I tried to call them to verify that these were in fact their latest model, etc., but it was too late so I just went for it.

I also still want to find out if they will be broken in before shipping.

Anyhow, I'll let you guys know how things turn out.

Sure hope someone buys my Veritas' soon before my wife kills me. Ushers, Veritas and Druids for one room. ;0)

Thanks for the highly informative post, Casouza. Obviously I was wrong in my guess about the construction of the Druid, and I appreciate your setting the record straight.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Once I get my 2.3i's sold and get back from vacation I'm going to order a pair.

Of course I'll post a follow-up when appropriate.

Again; many thanks.

Casouza, thanks so much for this informative post. I could care less about measurments, only the sound.

Jack,

Exceptional speakers do not need to be reasonably flat with wide dispersion to sound good. You are right to care only about the sound. Let us know how the Zu's sound if you get to audition them. I enjoyed your review of Energy Veritas a while ago. Good luck and enjoy your vacation! (BTW: Las Vegas Pro Audio is on your route - might be worth your time as the live, dynamic or impulse response that Casouza describes as a feature of the Zu's is also a trait you can often find in pro audio gear)

Casouza, thanks so much for this informative post. I could care less about measurments, only the sound.

I'm not sure I know what you mean when referrng to the tone. I like the sound of the real thing for sure, but I also like hearing the details. After all, Bose claims to reproduce the "live" sound. I'll leave it at that. :-)

I'm still curious to know if this speaker favors a specific type of music. Do those who like them prefer rock or classical? And how about those who who dislike them? What kind of music do they prefer and what don't they like (measurments aside)?

My old Klipsch LaScalla's measured poorly at both ends of the frequency spectrum and I loved their sound.

BTW, I'll be traveling on vacation next month from Texas to Vegas to San Diego and back (driving). Anyone know of a store along this route where I might be able to audition the Zu's? I realize there are very few dealers, but thought I would ask.

I am a ZU distributor and believe I can shed some light on the discussion. I also distribute a couple of award-winning speaker brands, highly regarded by the press and owners. Those other speakers are 3 way, with 12 db and 6 db crossovers.
Each speaker sounds unique and each is the right speaker for one consumer, maybe the wrong speaker for his next-door neighbor.

First, anechoic measurements are fatally flawed in terms of predicting the listening experience.
There are a few reasons:
Some audiophiles listen with a detail-oriented, HI-FI-ish mood and pay lots of attention to frequency response, soundstagind, detail and colorations. The most reliable measurement that I know to assess HI-FI "behaviour" of a speaker is room-averaged response from several mike positions.
However, there is no universally accepted standard to measure in-room bass.
If a speaker looks bright or boomy in those room-averaged graphs (like JA does for Stereophile), it will (in my experience) sound bright or boomy in a typical living room.
However, that's in-room frequency response, only one of many speaker performance yardsticks.

Music is not made of frequency response only.
Live music has rythm, pace, timing, tone, DYNAMICS, emotion, a believable soundstage and coherence. Most of those atributes are impossible to measure with today's measuring equipment. Maybe dynamics can be measured.

Another school of audiophiles (or may I say mélomanes, excuse my french), do not usually give high priority to frequency response. They care about the emotion, the gestalt of the music, an experience that reminds them of last week's concert, as opposed to a ruler-flat response. That's when an attempt to discuss full-range drivers in scientificv terms fall into a loophole. Frequency response and ripples do not explain why these drivers convey so much of the musical experience, rythm, pace, timing, tone, dynamics, emotion, soundstage and coherence.
There is seminal paper published by a japanese designer (he works for Mitsubishi and designed a single-driver speaker recently reviewed on a major magazine, Absolute Sound or Stereophile, memory fails me). If any Agon member has the link,please post it, I have not found it while writing this. His thesis is that speaker design should be focused on impulse response, not frequency response. The paper has a few graphs that make a lot of sense and helps explain why so many response-oriented speakers fail miserably on musical transients and sound like three different voices, not one voice.

In summary, if you crave for music and tone, there is a high probability that you will enjoy Zu speakers (or Lowther, Fostex, etc., though those sound to my ears more like an attempt to bridge the gap between tone and frequency response).
Adam and Sean deserve greater recognition for achieving GREAT tone within a reasonable budget and FOR NOT fallling into the frequency response trap.
I have opened up my ZU speakers. The cost of achieving HI-FI-ish frequency response is just a a couple of caps and resistors in the crossover, however making those changes will throw out the baby with the bathwater. I know from hands-on experience. Just for fun, on a rainy weekend, I calculated a theoretically frequency-perfect crossover and installed it on my personal Druids, then measured them with a 31 band real-time analyser...great treble, lots of detail, smooth midrange response, but the additional reactive components killed tone and coherency when listening to music, not test tones or pink noise.
In summary, Zu speakers convey a different musical experience, which may take a few days to get used to.
Once one gets used to them, HI-FI speakers sound unrealistic, constrained in dynamics, tipped up and not coherent.
Others may never like Druids and I respect those opinions. Spouses, shoes and speakers are very personal choices.

IMO, most of the advice in this thread is correct, however there are a few misunderstandings:
-measurements do not tell the whole story; science is no substitute for a test drive (says Porsche);
-most speakers are measured on a specific axis (that's the frequency response you see on the marketing brochure)... off-axis, most will have A LOT of ripple due to dispersion anomalies, refraction, cabinet edge difraction and frequency beating/cancelation between drivers;
-the Druid's internal path length is about 40 inches, the cabinet height;
-The Druid is a slot-loaded speaker, not a tuned pipe;
-yes, its bass varies with room placement, however, it changes mostly in bass quantity, very little in bass quality, as compared to resonance-based bass alignments. Four inches can make or break a bass-reflex or passive radiator speaker's bass. It may sound too lean or boom unbearably.
The Druid does not change much its bass quality from 10 inches away from the back wall to a yard or two into the room. Also, IME, it does not boom or resonate in the bass, unless one uses a poor amplifier or bad recording.
In summary, the advice given by several posters: try them and if you like them, keep them...is sound advice (pun intended).

Enjoy the music!

Kehut, I don't think I got my point across correctly in my previous post. I don't have the Ushers set up in the small room, they are set up in my living room which is much larger ~ 18' X 22' with 14' ceiling and an open floor plan.

I'm considering using the the small room for a dedicated two channel rig and using my living room for HT only.

BTW, I'm one who really doesn't care much about specs. I've seen too many products that spec well, but sound like crap and vice versa.