From what I've seen in online audio discussion forums such as Audiogon, words like warm, taut, wooly, and forward can upset even died in the wool audiophiles. While some may have a hard time getting their arms around them, most of the terms seem quite appropriate to me. You have to develop some list of terms in order to convey a description of a component's sonics, or to delineate it from another component.
However, I have noticed the description "self effacing" creeping into more and more reviews, and it flat out boggles my mind. Initially, it seemed to fit into the context it was being used - affordable or downright cheap gear, that was fun and lively. However, now that I've read the term being used to describe quite a serious piece of high end kit, the time has come to point out how ridiculous things are getting.
I had to laugh out loud thinking of the snootiest, most condescending audio dealer I know who was carrying this brand. Using the term "self effacing" with anything had to do with this guy was akin to describing Phyllis Diller a young, hot sex symbol.
MrTennis: Primum non nocere! Are you implying we took some kind of oath or are these terms less harmful. Trelja, old pal perhaps the number of ribs or slabs there of would be a better way to draw a distinction between a specification and a descriptor. BTW what is chocolate sound does it taste or sound like ribs. Will someone explain that to me.
Looks like Mint is winning by quite some. Frankly "both working and cosmetic are perfect". Is about as useless as can be. I realize cosmetics are vital for resale but I really don't mind really small imperfections but even the slightest malfunction and it's a no sale in my book. Please, it's working perfectly, and cosmetically perfect.
"Liquid" and "organic" are equally bad offenders for me, but I absolutely don't get the tube gear I've heard so that is not a big surprise.
On the other hand, I know what I mean when I use the term PRaT, though it has a dodgy marketing background from what I gather and so I understand the visceral response in brings out in some.
"Best" ....do a search in the forums or the listings...you'll see this one being used ad nauseum. I get 20 hits on "Tubelike" and 300 on "Best" in the forums. "Mint" pulls up 164. Now in the listings I think "Mint" does indeed best "Best". I'd disqualify "Mint" though since it is almost always applying to the cosmetic condition, and not the actual functional qualities..."Mint" is actually pretty black and white when it comes down to it...it either is or it isn't. "Best", on the other hand, is ripe with arrogance, and relatively useless in a hobby based around entire systems that are mostly in flux on a continuous basis, and are entirely relative to oh so many factors in their success or failure... not to mention wholely subjective. I think this is the best answer ever, don't you? Jaw droppingly insightful! Self-effacing and tubelike with that SS slam most of you crave.
So what's wrong with the term "musical"? A large portion of the Audiofool population sits and listens for tiny little details in the music, thinking that this is the Hallmark of Audio reproduciton. (Gawd, did you hear that? I heard one of the musicians move his foot! Oh, did you hear that? The clarinetist's in-breath whistles because she hasn't trimmed her nose hairs! Wow!) Meanwhile, the soundstage is narrow and flat, harmonics are virtually absent, the overall balance is off and it is not a very "musical" reproduction! If used for the right reasons, "musical" is very important descriptive word.
Would someone tell me what the term " fleshing out" means? I have an idea, but I'd like to get some opinions. Used in a sentence, " As the days and hours passed, the midrange slowly began to flesh out."
Palpable. That word should get you kicked off the island immediately. The Whizbang 5000 presented Diana Krall with such palpable presense that I was convinced she was standing in front of me.
The tribe has spoken. Extenguish your torch and leave immediately.
How's a feller s'posed to talk audio if'n he ain't got no more fluffy words in his toolkit? Soon enough, we'll end up with the Al Swearingen version of the audio review, where "Best" is the most useless f%*$& audio adjectival, you f%&$&# c$*&sucker!
"Night and day" Overused. At night it's dark, in daylight it's bright. A real night and day comparison would be the first TV set I saw in the 50's, compared to the new HD sets being offered now.
professional audio scribes take " heed " you have been formally educated to the likes and dislikes of the masses... PLEASE TAKE NOTICE... yeah, you there, you know who you are... (-<)...
Tvad, Wonderful, Incredible, Incomparable, Holey Shhh...... ....have you ever actually HAD Corkeys BBQ? I live about 3 miles from THE Original (can almost SMELL it from here!) :-)
"The bass (or mid range or substitute any positive attribute here) is the best heard yet-in my room'' Almost every reviewer has remarked this a thousand time... ......... absolutely meaningless.
Its as though a veil had been lifted and someone took three layers of blankets off my speakers when I put the isolation blocks under the ultra phase 3 modification of my Esoteric Reiymo combation of the X-1 and 777 CDP fused into a single box only can play one CD though don't worry any audiophool Knows that is required the other transport is hidden as a back up for digital DVD suround when h=needed but that is the Level 5 mod. The mods were only $5,000 for the phase 3 mods only By Erik Von Recklinghouse oF Intensive mods located in Southern Peru. However he's backed up about 8 months, due to the ultrafine micro damping he was mainly damps with isodamp from parts depress acting as RMI RFI RPM RP RPQ RPMx shielding sheilding on every bare spot The blackness is incedible.
There are some of these come as apackage readily available for a discount of only $4000 and with the extra Jittering satelite controlled super clocking- from Interforests Harvey in Louisiana (the Flood was nowhere near the warehouse just missed it). Plus the floating isolation platform which Al Swearinger of Ultra Tweaks Men was imperative and convincing was totaley and an asolutley needed the Fabulous spring loaded Super Deluxe Isolation Platform that had to be used (which consisted of ping pong blls over painted and cryo treated MDF and put on Home Depot Brass plumbing fixture points,)It was was imperative or the last level of micro ultra data retreival would be lost and more focus would't be brought to the music. Total for the CDP plus the mods is a $17,00 for the basic CDP, plus $5,00 for the mods, plus $3500 for the platform only $25,500 I know most you should by all means find this investment in quality to acieve true sonic Nirvana. It was well worth the money believe it, come fee for auditions at my home in North Datoka. The first $5,00 takes it all. Reason for selling is to upgrade to separates.
Speaking of useless adjectives; a while back, I designed a t-shirt (and other useless products) using quotes ripped right off these very pages (I swear...I copied them verbatim...plagerism, right here on the Gon'!! Imagine that?!). Check out the t-shirt here and click on "view larger" then "zoom in on image" in order to read a few many more useless adjectives in action.
(Pay no attention to the shameless plug for the cheap swag).
PRaT (First of all, forget "acceleration" -- that was only thrown in there after the fact to try and save a shred of dignity. OK: pace, rhythm and timing are all separate qualities applying to *music*, not reproduced sound. Each means something different from the others, musically speaking, so lumping them all together as going hand in hand just underscores how empty this acronym truly is. For instance, when was the last time you heard anyone talk about an interconnect that had ‘great timing’ but ‘lousy rhythm’? And since when can an amplifier affect the tempo -- which is what ‘pace’ is -- of a piece of music? So it’s meaningless in the literal sense, but as figurative shorthand for the more precisely descriptive, actual audio qualities for which it substitutes, I think most audiophiles get the drift of it, though as a catch-all it glosses over the details and doesn’t do anything to help educate neophytes about what really might be going on.)
Bloom, bloomy (Flowers bloom. No one has any idea what this means about gear, or everyone has a different idea.)
Musical, musicality (Biggest cop-out ever invented. DoesnÂ’t tell anybody anything about the way something sounded, just that the reviewer didn't think it sucked.)
Liquid, liquidity (The opposite of a liquid is either a solid or a gas -- does live music sound like any of these things? Nobody describes sound as being “gassy” thank goodness, and “solid” is usually a positive term for bass or imaging. Again, no one knows what the hell this really means, just that it's supposed to be good. Watch out it doesn’t get on your pants.)
Analog-like (Said only about digital. Except, apparently, in the case of the Music Direct: the latest catalog they sent me actually describes the new Clearaudio cartridges as "now voiced for an overall sense of analog-like warmth and richness". Did I mention this was in reference to a cartridge?)
Digital, digital-like (Means anything bad.)
Solid-state-like (Can be somewhat good, except when said of a solid-state piece of gear.)
Tube-like (Means anything good. Surprised Music Direct hasn’t used this to describe tube amps. Not to be confused with “tubey”, a perfectly good term for describing a tubed piece of gear that sounds archetypically like same, but a laughable term for describing anything else.)
Electrostatic-like (Means the reviewer has conflicted feelings about the fact that deep down he knows he wouldnÂ’t be content if he actually owned electrostatic speakers.)
Bright (Everything is too bright for audiophiles. Bright is the bane of an audiophile's life -- the very reason he is an audiophile, yet also the reason heÂ’s never happy as an audiophile. The future of an audiophile is so bright heÂ’s gotta wear earmuffs.)
Warm, warmth (Audiophiles and reviewers are forever conflating this term. Simplistically put, one meaning is a tonal balance generally favoring lower frequencies over higher ones, or to a degree generous in the lower mids. The other meaning indicates a pleasing if additive harmonic profile, from gear favoring lower- and even-order distortion products while avoiding higher- and odd-order ones. The two qualities are unrelated, but the distinction is almost ever noted.)
Continuousness (What can really be said about this one?Â…ThereÂ’s a special place in hell for reviewers who make up indefinable words to supersede other indefinable words they made up.)
Laid-back (Dude, whereÂ’s my system?)
Delicate (Ssshhh, turn it down or you’ll break it. And “delicacy” is something you eat.)
Sweet, sweetness (I am a bitter, bitter man.)
Plays the tune (I suppose lesser gear plays whatever the hell it feels like.)
Gets the notes and beats right (The only person alive who might know what this means is the one reviewer who says it, but I strongly doubt it.)
Organized (Another one-reviewer special, for anal-retentives only. Oops, thatÂ’s all of us. Wish it described my record collection though.)
Action (A questionable term coined by yet another reviewer who's been endlessly defining it for us in every review he's written for at least several years, and still nobody uses it but him.)
Lit from within (Yeah, IÂ’ll be you are!)
Midrange magic (No treble, and certainly no bass.)
SET-like (Means inferior to my SET, except for those many ways in which it is objectively superior.)
All things considered something of a bargain (Paging Bill Gates.)
Black background (This is what music arises out of, kids.)
Translucent (Larvae and pupae can be translucent. Anybody? DidnÂ’t think so.)
Ruthlessly revealing (What something is not. Break glass to use immediately after telling how neutral, fast, extended, resolving and transparent something is, so we donÂ’t run away screaming.)
But if youÂ’re in the market for XXXXXXX, I can certainly recommend that you should go hear it for yourself and form your own opinion (Oh man, I can't tell you what a waste of time that would be! No, I mean I literally cannot tell you that.)
I can see it now. The new XYZ amplifier review in Stereophile:
"It was as if...no, not as if...VERY...no, not very. Remember, no adjectives...it was good...no, not good. Hmmm....well, just listen to it yourself, and see what you think. But remember, don't ask, don't tell."
Honestly, despite whatever he tries to say, a world without adjectives (or, adverbs for that matter) is one incompletely developed, and of little use to one beyond the most elementary understanding. One cannot perform subject review or analysis, which as a scientist and engineer, I will argue is far more important than objective analysis, without the use of modifiers of the nouns and verbs. Analytical tests provide the numbers, but advancing the craft requires an individual to transcend the data, keep an open mind, and shift towards the model of an artist where patterns are seen, things are viewed in subjective terms, and the next step is reached.
This site is not geared toward the reader of The Audio Critic (whose editor, Peter Aczel is literally hard of hearing) or Stereo Review. Measurements have their place, but in the end, just about every Audiogoner cares far more about the way his components sound than how they spec out.
Zaikesman, you ALWAYS enrich the threads you participate in! Here, you nailed one of my all time favorites; electrostatic - like. As Grant explained tubes do not sound anything like what most people say they do, so do electrostatic speakers. Again, I hear the opposite of the conventional wisdom in regards to electrostatic loudspeakers. To my ears, they are MORE slow, caramel colored, rich, relaxed, liquid, and soothing. My term for Quads, Innersounds, etc. is "pipe and slippers" speakers.
Thanks Joe, but "Pipe-and-Slippers"? What, did you grow up learning about hi-fi from Playboy? Hmmm -- guess if one does the supertweeter-addition thing with Quads, then you've got Pipe-Slippers-and-a-Golden-Retriever speakers ;^)
Verbalizing sound is perilous. Few of the words we use have shared meanings among us. How much better it would be were we able to post sounds, not words or pictures.
Howard, that list brought back a memory that had long since been buried in the deepest recesses of my mind - Marilyn Lange, May of 1974. Though she probably isn't remembered by anyone else here, allow me to assure you she was one healthy young woman. Thank God Uncle Walter was careless with those magazines!
If I could get 1/100 of what Hef gets, I'd gladly go with a big time pipe and slippers rig (Quad ESL63, CJ PV10 preamp, Adcom 555 amplifier, Rega Planet CDP) evermore.
I was with Trelja when we auditioned the newer Quads that won the Stereophile product of the year. In fact Joe you used Pipe and Slippers as well as very "Polite", and we did hear it with A CJ pre which we kept adjusting much to the salesmans annoyance ( or was it the new LS-17?0 . I would add velvet Smoking Jacket to the pipe and slipper as well as fireplace burning away while reading some endless russian novel.
Ah, if we keep this up, we will be the bane of the audiophile community. I mean, how will reviewers cope with no longer being able to use the terms tubelike and electrostatic-like to convey describing amps that sound slow, dark, and easy or speakers that sound fast and revealing???
Yes, Doctor, your memory is correct. It was CJ gear with the Quad ESL988. We listened with CJ Premier 140 monos and CJ ART II. Then, we later tried a big Classe power amp. Neither would allow one to us to remove our smoking jackets or put down the Dostoevksky, "I say, old Rex, be a good dog and fetch daddy's slippers."
You "Pipe and Slippers" lot ought'a write yourself a manifesto to clarify your mission to the world. You'll need to come up with some additional categories to define other qualities of sound...maybe group them into classes...publish a regular journal of some sort to enlighten the rest of us. Here are a few suggestions of more adjective substitutes: Evil Klown (note the "K" substitution). Afro Pick, Close-N'-Play, Flying Monkeys, Good Humor Truck, Used Condom, Burma Shave, Crack Whore. Just give it a few years and you'll see the cover story in Stereophile picking up on the trend: "...this performance yet again puts the $30K Tri-Vista solidly in our Crack Whore category. If it weren't for the lack of pipe and slippers in the highest octave (it was my dog who had to key me in about this), it would go into the coveted Crack Whore riding the Good Humor Truck category (Buying that double-page spread ad in this months issue might have helped them achieve that status as well)." In the same issue you might see the iPod (generation XVII) go from hobo camp to used condom status. Personally, I recommend burma shave stuff for the best bang for the buck.
Marco: Well, it's quite obvious we can't consider seriously anything you have to say about expanding the Pipe'n'Slippers program. To imply that it will take Stereophile as long as "a few years" to feature another Musical Fidelity product on their cover just totally destroys any credibility you may have had with your Flying Monkeys and your Close'n'Play ;^)
To imply that it will take Stereophile as long as "a few years"
Ah, Zaikes, you obviously missed the operative preface in the headline: "yet again". Let me further predict that the follow-up issue will see a B&W speaker gracing the cover (AGAIN) declaring it has established a new plateau of performance worthy of the subcategory "rollerderby crack whore"
A post yesterday reminded me of another adjective I've never understood - 'vinyl' like. With all the different cartridges and phono preamp variations it can't be tonal, can't be that someone wants clicks, snaps, pops, and tracing noise, can't be the compression involved in recording. What exactly is this vinyl sound that is so immediatly identifiable that even folks without vinyl experience know what it is? Hummmmmm :-)
A post yesterday reminded me of another adjective I've never understood - 'vinyl' like. With all the different cartridges and phono preamp variations it can't be tonal, can't be that someone wants clicks, snaps, pops, and tracing noise, can't be the compression involved in recording.
It's really quite simple; it means, flat and black with a small hole in the middle. Some donuts are 'vinyl like'. Manhole covers are often loosely described that way, though their holes are more often towards the edges.
Your post gave me an idea for a descriptor for the manifesto, exclusively for vinyl playback devices and donuts: "Rice Krispies"!
I was in search of "vinyl like" sound from my CDs. It was driving me to try some desperate things only an audiophile would do. We call them tweaks, the rest of the world calls them stupid...
I scattered my CDs all over the driveway, and began to walk on them, and even jump and down on some that I felt were especially poor sounding. Scuffed up the playing surfaces pretty good. Yes, I was able to emulate the ticks, pops, and skips, but it still didn't have that overall relaxed, easy to, natural sound of a good old fashioned record. I heard concrete is more effective than asphalt, but I haven't had time to try it yet...
Another word that has bothered me is "slam". When I read a review that this amp has slam or the bass has slam, what the hell does that mean? If the bass has slam is it also "gut-wrenching"?
Mid Fi.....who the hell knows what that means or where to set the bar, if it is cheaper gear then person A has, person B has Mid fi gear.....go figure.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
