@mrklas
I see your point. It also applies to DIY. When I DIY my outcome is also based on budget, space, time... Same constraints.
It's still down to vision - no matter what constraints we work with, each component has its own personality. The commercial route is trying to blend different personalities to work together. With DIY you can modify and adjust the voicing of each component to work together with far greater effectiveness. Requires very high skill level though, not going to happen unless someone dedicates a big chunk of his life to it.
I gave it 20+ years, 10,000+ hours so no free lunch, no matter which road we walk. We can say that DIY in the end is actually far more expensive than buying a product. But after 20 years it got me to a point were no commercial product went for me, no matter the price.
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@realworldaudio I appreciate your passion.
I am not buying someone's vision - I'm buying an outcome based on constraints like budget, space and time.
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When DIY meets dedication, knowledge, and experience then it is the ultimate choice. Through DIY you can express YOUR OWN DREAMS, and PROJECT YOUR VISION. By buying gear you BUY INTO SOMEONE ELSES DREAM... which never ever matches yours with 100% accuracy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes , this is accurate. DIY you build what you know will make the best sound for your music. I listen to classical, which has some massive orchestration, a xover type speaker will not meet these demands from a orchestra.
The xover point chops up the image. Bass and highs I can find via other drivers , its a seamless midrange band that I must have voicing classical. xover speakers are only good as assist, never ever as front center.
Wilson, Sonus Faber, Dali, Rockport, Joseph Audio,
none of these will work as a front center musical speaker.
FR is the Crown Jewel in my speaker system.
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Some of us are too critical of our DIY to be satisfied!
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Oh I agree,
Im going further in this DIY thing
I'm fgoing dual FR, which some DIYers said,,**we already tried , it won't work...**
I've done my own experiements, 2 were OK, 1 success.
But I'm looking for even more success.
have a DLVX6 arriving anyday,,its at the HK airport, DHL.
Dual FR's.
**Might work, might not, only out $400 if it doesn't work out.
But if a success, = worlds best mid band fq speaker.
The previous success wasa DLVX8 + DLW4.
The DLVX8 + TB2145 was too thick in mids and the TB2145 has beam issues.
The other experiement, DLVX8 (my reference FR) + DLW6 yellow cone, did not work oyt due to the W6's mids not up to par with the VX8.
I bet the DIYers tried dual Fostex.
Dual Fostex will not work.
Fostex has some shout issues. |
When DIY meets dedication, knowledge, and experience then it is the ultimate choice.
Through DIY you can express YOUR OWN DREAMS, and PROJECT YOUR VISION.
By buying gear you BUY INTO SOMEONE ELSES DREAM... which never ever matches yours with 100% accuracy.
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@mozartfan I really like my speakers - I'm not touching anything because if it didn't work I'd be really irate with myself. And if it did work I'd second guess if I could do better.
Some of us are too critical of our DIY to be satisfied!
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105dB’s
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My tech wont let me go near a horn.
at 100+++ db sens,, forget it.
95db sens is tops for me.
96db sens is 1db too high, 95db sens is the line in the sand. which is why AER and Voxativ wont work for me. |
- I don't have the skill or patience
~~~~~~~~~~~~any old cabinet will work, Just find any cabinet witha 8 inch woofer, take out woofer, install a DLVX8, replace the tweeter with your fav, with a Mundorf SESGO 6uf cap, and waaa laaa you are done.
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As a pure all horn system sound reproduction is effortless ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WEll you are not the only DIYer minimialist here ya know Horns are not the only speaker that is effortless, I am a Full Range fan-atic . For me FR is the ideal minimalist speaker. I could not ever live with a horn, Aint gonna fly with my taste /preferences. Full Range as in DavidLouis No xover. But have readjusted my Thors to 1800 hz on the W18’s and 5khz-15khz on the tweeter
The Fr has 95db sensitivity. Anything higher than 95db is not going to work in my system,.
$550 a pair. hows that for minimalist.
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Good for you! Glad you are enjoying the process!
In regards to DIY - I don't have the skill or patience and I'm glad foks that can enjoy the music and have the satisfaction of it being the fruit of their labor.
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I have a pair of EV DH1A my friend gave me to try though I have yet to do so. Everyone who has had those have nothing but praise for them. The guy who gave me those has been after me to put a set of the LMAHL V2 tweeters I make in there and do a three way but so far I have been happy enough to not bother doing so.
I am crossing over at 650hz.
"One senses the vitriol from some of the comments, because this - all of it, actually - rubs audiophilia quite the wrong way"
If pure sound quality was the metric they use I can only think they have not heard such a system. I suspect however that there is a lot of snobery involved and it is just "not possible" that serious hobbiests can build better than the high end audio store offerings.
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Interesting (and to me rather familiar) rundown on your audio setup, mahlman. All-horn, -active, DIY, inclusion of pro audio products, letting size have its say, PC-based source - hear you loud and clear. One senses the vitriol from some of the comments, because this - all of it, actually - rubs audiophilia quite the wrong way. And that’s how it should be, apparently.
It’s great that you’re able to maintain a 2-way speaker system running from ~25Hz to ~18kHz and a sensitivity across the board no lower than 105dB’s, it seems. Something tells though the bass horn is at its limits in the upper range crossing over to the K-402? The K-1132 apparently isn’t all too different compared to the EV DH1A (used in my main speakers).
My own speaker system is 3-way - that is, 2-way pro cinema Electro-Voice TS9040D LX speakers, run actively through a Xilica XP-3060 (same as yours) with a Belles SA-30 for the HP9040 horn + DH1A compression driver and a Lab.gruppen FP6400 for the ported dual 15" drivers. A Crown K2 runs a pair of DIY MicroWrecker 20 cf. tapped horns fitted with a 15" B&C unit in each, augmenting the EV’s from just below 85Hz down to 20-25Hz. Total output power sits at ~2.5kW per channel (the EV bass section sums into 4 ohm). Slopes across the range are 36dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley, though the high-pass on the MW subs at 20Hz uses a Butterworth slope style. I'm implementing 5 PEQ’s on the EV horn section (4 subtle notches and 1 peak suppression). The rest of the bandwidth is run sans PEQ.
What really makes a difference here, and where I find 3-way to be worthwhile, is high-passing the EV bass section at ~85Hz crossing over to the TH subs, which "sets them free" with a cleaner and more agile/expressive imprinting - it adds a bucket of headroom in this vital region. The DH1A is a monster, a sledgehammer in velvet gloves, and is crossed with the HP9040 at just over 600Hz. The TH subs are wholly effortless, smooth and quite visceral, and integrates tremendously well with the EV’s.
I use a PC source as well in the shape of a DIY music/HT server with a Marian Seraph D4 AES/EBU digital output interface to feed my DAC/preamp via a balanced Mundorf silver/gold digital cable.
I find it’s great that you’re using the system you do, actively and all and with the priorities you’ve made. I may end up with all-horn again (been there), but for now I’m very pleased with where I’m at. An important trait with the EV’s is their physical height of just over 6’ with the acoustic center sitting between the lower horn edge and upper edge of the EV bass cab. It’s an unrestricted sphere-like presentation that fills the room effortlessly, not unlike a large panel speaker (but with much better macro dynamics). A future upgrade may present itself with a pair of DIY high-order bandpass subs fitted with 21" pro neodymium woofers. They extend higher and cleaner in the upper band compared to my TH’s, and thus may further clean up the upper bass/lower midrange (the MW’s are run at their max upper ceiling). Fun stuff.
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What Ohm value did you choose and why?
I use a 100K ladder type attenuator because I wanted the input impedance (100k) of my amp not below 50k after adding the attenuator. Input impedance should be in the range of 10 times or more the output impedance of what you use for driving the amp etc.
The other odd thing was a corded laser mouse. When I moved it around you could hear it also.
My feeling is that a USB interface with galvanic isolation and getting rid of some unnecessary background processes would already be a big leap forward while still using the Dell laptop. No more noise when using the mouse and less noise in general. The Xilica XP 4080 offers Ethernet and USB input. Don’t know about the XP-3060.
If the Xilica is only for DSP you could also do it with software only like HQPlayer, writing the filters for the convolution engine in REW, thus making it even more simple.
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Of course not all laptops or PC's are created equal and as mentioned the laptop did not sound as good. Laptops do have their place though when dialing in a system with REW and a UMike. You can sit right in your preferred spot and dial things in on the fly and no up and down across the room nonsense. So what has been your experience that caused your bias?
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This thread cracks me up; so much effort on the back end, but relying on an old laptop's sound module? Give me a break!
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"I have never believed computers can or should ever be considered in the same league as dedicated audio equipment. At best, it is a hybrid compromise that never truly makes the grade."
Until I stumbled across the Realtek Hi Def driver download I might have agreed with you. The PC now can go as high as 24 bit 192KHZ. I never use 192KHZ anymore and stay with 96KHZ on my files after running music files through Audacity. I have had loss of fidelity when going past 96KHZ. The problem now is finding good enough music files
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"Don't you lose some resolution if you do it like that"
No I don't think so. I have had people pull the gear rack out looking for the hidden box that makes things sound so good and there is no hidden box. Gain can be further adjusted if needed in the Xilica.
That stepped attenuator looks interesting. I am working on another two way system with a passive crossover and the HF side needs attenuation to not get ahead of the bass bin woofers. What Ohm value did you choose and why?
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Well guys, it may be ones' approach to the 'puter involved; but y'all may be right, I may be just lucky....
Decided to dive back into diy'ing it, since I'm diy'ing my speakers as well. Have used a couple of older HP's running AMT cpu's with reasonable results, but decided to grab the horns of the bull...
Already had in hand a CoolerMaster ATCs case that's N/A now; low-profile, matched the width and height of a 'typical' bit of OTS audio gear. 2 full-width drop panels on the face that mask 2 RWDVD drives on top, front connects on the bottom.
Asus 'gaming' mATX m/b, AMD Ryzen5 6core 2600 cpu, 16g mem chosen for speed, 500gb SSD, 1T hd, Asus Essence STX2 soundcard with it's breakout board.
Hasn't given me any trouble whatsoever, and quick enough for now. Fits into my rack on a rack shelf, and has room to improve if I get bored with something later.
Running one of the older HP's separately with just various monitor software; fast enough since it's just 'listening' to line/in-line/output as desired.
Win10Pro on both, gutted of any extraneous s/w...
The ceiling fan is the loudest thing in the space. 'Background' is 'black' enough for my tastes, more noise from the selection being played than the system.
Been doing audio puter since mid-'90s', and see no reason to stop.
But...I may just be stupid lucky.... ;)
Stop using OTS boxes is my suggestion, and build your own.
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I leave them up half way and adjust the rest with the PC sound card control which rarely goes above 50%.
Don't you lose some resolution if you do it like that? Even with 24bit the limit is -24dB for digital volume control. I use a combination with digital volume control and Khozmo attenuators. That is for my feeling the best compromise between not loosing resolution and at the same time keeping all the transients because I only need to shorten a tiny part of the signal to ground.
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I have never believed computers can or should ever be considered in the same league as dedicated audio equipment. At best, it is a hybrid compromise that never truly makes the grade.
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"So much for being a minimalist."
What I was thinking when I said this was how few pieces of gear I have compared to many here. It is not minimalist though in terms of implementation. Once you learn DSP though you can store up to 30 profiles you can switch to at any time.
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I bought my Dell off the refurb site with a good Quadro card in it I was intending to use for my sound and graphics. This workstation is also the PC I use for my machining and design programs. I never could get the Quadro to work for sound and was not real happy with what I was hearing. What made all the difference was finding out about the Realtek high definition driver and installing that. It was a whole different world. I also have Dell Precision laptop and the sound from it is merely OK. I guess I was lucky on the PC pick where sound is concerned. Going on 4 years with it and I have had zero trouble and the sound is so good I am not looking further.
Some odd things along the way that did effect sound. My secondary drive was a spinning platter and it had a noise you could hear when things were otherwise dead quiet. SSD's fixed that and I expect your SSD's are quiet too.
The other odd thing was a corded laser mouse. When I moved it around you could hear it also.
When this PC dies I might find out how hard it could be to get a good sounding one and only time will tell.
Which Dell did you get?
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That's how I feel about my system, all analogue. Mostly built by me, the ESL speakers heavily modified. The cartridge remains in original condition. The satisfaction is only part of it - you just can't buy much which is made without compromise.
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You lost my interest when you mentioned the front end is a PC based Dell computer. I had a high end Dell built to my specifications with a top shelf sound card and video card, Intel i9 processor, 64 GB Ram, 800 watt power supply, two 2TB solid state drives and it really sounds like crap, I am not kidding. Plus the computer had to be replaced a month after owning it and even the new one, now 2 years old, gives me trouble on a regular basis. I guess you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck.
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Working with a Faital HF146R on a machined Baltic Birch horn with a 6" depth, 1.4" throat and a 7" x 14" mouth. The detail is stunning and I doubt this driver will ever make it to commercial gear. The machined horn will never be massed produced either since they are cut on a mill one by one. To expensive for bean counters though they seem to have no trouble charging outrageous prices.
You are right that this is beyond most with equipment and skill constraints but where there is a will a way can be made. Also tinkering with B&C's DCX464 coaxial driver and it has promise too.
There is tremendous satisfaction to be had when you do things right. I figure most audio types have never heard a competently built system and have only factory products to judge by.
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No vendors offer loudspeakers that I want most products are greatly hamstrung by profit margins, shipping- storage costs, products must have mass appeal toss in audiophile brand name pricing the old just add zeros. You also rarely see any advanced transducers in audiophile products the audiophile gets cheaper examples at later dates and with new house pricing. So it has always made sense for me to build what I want. For many, I don't think their skill levels would allow success many variables and a steep costly learning curve awaits them. But if you have skills it's easy to DIY better than you can buy. If you don't have the skills it is still worthwhile and you will learn much as you keep at it.
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So much for being a minimalist.
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My fingers are stuck in my ears.
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