Thanks for the update Charles. This is one I would really like to hear in the 1k DAC sweepstakes, it sounds very promising.
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Forgot to mention that the Octave has a seperate 14VA power supply and is non oversampling and based on the R/2R architecture. Due to it being NOS I expected it to be natural and somewhat smooth. What surprised me are the dynamics,detail-articulation and ultra resolution. If this is how NOS sounds with proper design and execution then I`m completely sold on it, there`s no mush or muck at all. |
Well at last my Metrum Octave came today(praise the lord!) Within 20 minutes I had it setup and playing. To get right to the point, this thing is special,very special. Cees warns of initial brightness and says in several weeks the Octave settles in. This must be system dependent, the sound is quite extended but the high frequencies are refined and a bit sweet, but I don`t appreciate brightness,edge or harshness at all. This DAC caught me off guard(despite the review and comparisons on 6 moons and the various forums)it is utterly transparent,crystal clear with very high resolution. But here`s the strange part, it as organic and fluid(already) as my Yamamoto YDA DAC with the same smooth-relaxed presentation but it`s clearly more dynamic and bigger sounding, larger scale and noticably faster. This was an unexpected finding at this very early stage. The Yamamoto is a top performing DAC that has bettered many other digital sources with it`s natural character and tone. I`ve absolutely have enjoyed this DAC and felt it was worth every penny, 2,500 USD in Feb-2010.I must be honest, the Octave is just simply superior(believe me that`s saying something!).I listened to Sarah Vaughn, John Coltrane-Johnny Hartman and then Miles Davis. These were examples of very often played CDs I know so well and have heard in many different systems. The strong sense of living breathing palpable performers in your space "exceeds" the Yamamoto(which did this so convincingly). The Octave must have a lower noise floor and or higher S/N ratio, venue nuance,ambience and micro details are rendered on a higher level. I`m not trying to beatup the Yamamoto(it`s provided me with much musical enjoyment) but in just 3 hours of listening,all of these observations were so apparent. Summary, Exceptional refined tone and timbre(rich but not fat or bloated) Beautiful overtones and harmonic preservation(cymbals sound so real and natural, wow!) Superb transparent and clear sound, no veils at all. Very high detail level and resolution, yet very organic at the same time. Really similar to the Coincident preamp and SET amplifier. Maybe after such a long wait I just got lucky, it fits so well with my current components. All listening was with plain old 16/44.1 Redbook and it`s the best CD sound I`ve ever heard in my system(without question). I`m going to the RMAF in a few days and will run the Octave 24/7 while I`m away. Best Regards, |
Charles1dad, I have listened to 4 DACs in the last month or so. My favorite one, by far, is an older one a friend gave to me. He helped design it for a company and was given some of them which he modified to his own tastes (got rid of all electrolitics, used some "special" caps, beefed up power supply, etc). It doesn't have all the fancy # of the newer ones, it just sounds better. What is surprising it the low level detail. It's not just that it's better, I hear things that don't even exist in the others. When I was researching, I read that Gordon Rankin (Wavelength) thinks that the manipulation of the stream up then down loses some low level detail. All I know is what I hear and that is: this older "simpler" DAC, with it's mods, sounds better than the newer ones I tried. I'm happy now and have no interest in trying way more expensive ones. I will be interested in what you find with the Metrum. I like your system. It should reveal a lot. |
Has anyone heard or considered the Acoustic Plan DAC? It is a NOS architecture with separate power supply and discrete tube output stage. I heard the Acoustic Plan DAC recently and was impressed. Staehli, you might find this more to your tastes but it costs a bit more than the MA DAC. I sure hope your DAC settles down a bit. Your description is frightening! |
Hi, Staehli, sorry to hear about your problems with the Metrum. Ironically the upper frequency performance of the DAC is cited as one of it`s strenths in reviews and feedback from nearly all early owners.No etch,edge or brightness(yet very high resolution) per impressions. Another example of how no component pleases everyone`s ears or works well in all systems. I hope to finally have my re-shipped Metrum Octave very soon and compare for myself. Staehli I agree that home auditions(with return policy ) is the ideal situation. |
Hi all A vew weeks ago I wrote about my first impressions of the Metrum DAC and mentioned - besides some positive aspects - the loose bass and the ill defined treble. I was sure, these shortcomings would vanish during the break in period but the contrary happened, especially in the hights. S and z sounds are almost unbearable now. They're completely bleached and my initial remark that they sound a bit like pink noise is even more pronounced now. I tried different cables but the outcome stayed the same so I borrowed the DAC to a friend with a Lawry DAC, ATC pre and active ATC 50s. He could have tried it for a week but gave it back after two days with the same results. Now I'm back to my old DAC. For future purchases I'll insist on a home audition. |
I run without preamp, directly into Nuforce 9SE V3. The Metrum is with a 14VA powersupply. Non-fatiguing is definitively not at the expense of detail. Initially, there was almost too much detail, detracting somewhat from what Sarjan might call "Gestalt" - but with time, the brightness settles, and the tome becomes more balanced, maybe even "lush". I have listened but not critically compared the RWA Isabella (this includes preamp), Nuforce HDP, Ack Dac, Promitheus Dac and Weiss Dac2. Those are all good products. The Metrum however is in a different league. I have not listened to other acclaimed products, such as PDX, Lampizator, Bryston etc. I have to admit, I am not pursuing the "holy grail", but want have a system where I can completely relax and forget about equipment (which is hard enough to get...). A long time ago, I used an Alphason Sonata with a Garrott P87 cartridge, Spectral DMC12 and DMA50 into Quad ESL63. I was happy then, and I am now. I hope it will last. |
Charles1dad: so sorry to hear that. That's frustrating! Will continue to look forward to your comments. B_mueller: thanks for chiming in. Are you running preamp-less and with Amarra? Looking at your past threads I see you have had your fair share of experience with good DACs. Have you ever heard a Bryston BDA-1? It is good to see you describe the sound as detailed when you are coming from the Weiss. When people describe as non-fatiguing I can't help wonder if this is at the expense of detail resolution. I see it's not the case here - great news! BTW, does your Octave have the 7 or 14VA power supply? |
I use the Metrum Octave with an Audiophilleo2, and Amarra 2.3. Inititially, it was a bit bright, but not sibilant. I like the sound a lot. It is very clear, rich and detailed, with slam. Bass is excellent. Most importantly, the sound doe not fatigue. This was still an issue with the Weiss Dac2 for me. It sounds much different compared to an traditional NOS dac such as the Ack Dac or the Promitheus Dac. They sound constricted in comparision, creating a sense of coziness at the expense of resolution and transparency. I would not describe the sound as lush or rich, rather as neutral and very fast. |
Staehli, I am not familiar with the CD 21 transport, but from reading online it can upsample CDs. Were your comments/comparison between Octave and Benchmark based on 44.1 or 96 kHz output from the CD 21? I'm asking this because at another forum someone who's trying the Octave mentioned its performance was superb when fed an upsampled signal (in his case upsampled inside a computer, then reclocked thru Offramp 4), but mediocre when fed 44.1. |
8th of August! Darn, I ordered mine in mid July! Cees says he shipped mine 2 weeks ago, for some reason it has`nt cleared customs(sigh). Yes, this has unintentionally become a Metrum Octave thread due probably due to my mentioning the Octave while answering a question about my Yamamoto. But really, someone interested in the Yammy will most likely be attracted to the Metrum. Staehli I look forward to more of your impressions once the Metrum is fully broken-in. |
Charles, I ordered mine on the 8th of August. The amount of resolution was unexpected but "more developped timbres" is probably the better description and this is the kind of "resolution", that was missing from the benchmark. Please keep in mind that we're comming from different directions: you from the Yamamoto, me from the benchmark, so your findings might be different. I expect this to develop into a long thread so its a pitty, it runs under the Yamamoto lable. |
Staehli, Thanks for the very early impressions. Cees said initial sound is bright,and it needs about 3 weeks to settle in.I`m still waiting for my delivery. How long was your waiting period? I`m really looking forward to the natural tone and timbre that 6moons touted. It seems already you`ve noted high level detail/resolution, that`s encouraging. |
Got my Metrum Octave yesterday and compared it cold out of the box with my benchmark DAC1. The Octave is a glass of red wine, whereas the benchmark's more like a gin tonic. Soundstage opens up considerably vertically and horizontically but not so much in depth, bass is deeper (!) but less defined, sometimes even a bit one-note, midrange sounds lovely natural and voluminous, treble is still a bit nondescript like pink noise but that's very much exagerated from my side. Detail seems even better than from the benchmark which might be a function of the Metrums ability to reproduce timbres. The differences are certainly more pronounced than I anticipated. Most importantly, it's already very enjoyable Hope that helps |
Briang, I think the upsampling would be best done at the computer, then sent to the Metrum. An option for upsampling out of a CD player could be an Esoteric G25. Over at computeraudiophile a member has been trying with upsampling at the computer and he claims it is an awesome DAC. Maybe you are asking how would the sound be with a 16/44.1 feed from a CD player. I am wondering about that too. I myself, am very much looking forward to Charles1dad experience with it. |
I passed on my Yamamoto to Joel Chevassus on staff so I don't know how the YDA01 would stack up to the current crop of DACs I've had through. What I do know is that Joel compared his Yammy to the fully discrete French R/2R DAC by Vince Brient. Vince sent me the same DAC for a 2nd opinion. There I had a chance to compare it to the Metrum. It was very much the same flavor but the Frenchie perhaps had the slight advantage. That makes me think the Metrum surpasses the Yamamoto by triangulation - but that's just an (educated) guess. The U3 improves upon the OEM hiFace built into the NWO-M; upon the USB receiver of the Burson DACs; and even the Zodiac Gold (arguably the least on the latter but still audible). There will probably be DACs that *won't* benefit from the U3. And there probably are other USB-to-S/PDIF boxes like the Audiophilleo, KingRex et al that match the U3's victory lap of improving high-quality DAC with good USB implementations. I'm not sure yet *why* the U3 works as bloody well as it does. The XMOS chip inside is apparently very trick. But the real 'magic' could be that, A/it's external and B/ that it's bus powered. I noticed that designer Simon Lee didn't integrate the U3 into the mother board of the Eximus DP1 I currently have in for review but left it separate (piggy-backed) though obviously in the same enclosure. I'm usually more in favor of integration and less cables. With the U3, I stand corrected. The Yamamoto of course has no USB input so the U3 or something like it becomes required for streaming files. I was simply surprised that the U3 would be superior to what's inside machines of NWO-M/Zodiac Gold stature (i.e. *everything* I've got in house). There's probably something going on we don't know yet. Other listeners have posted similar findings elsewhere with Steve Nugent's equivalent interface... |
Srajan, Can you provide us with some insight as to the original question in this thread. When you take a DAC with a beautiful analog section- the Yamamoto- and feed it an uber-clean digital signal from the Stello U3, how does the sound stack up against the newest computer digital greats. Is it in the same league? |
I didn't realize my email to Charles' inquiry would end up here but why not. It remains my understanding that the chips Cees is using (good for 24/176.4 streams) remain unidentified. In my exchanges with him he stressed that to his knowledge this chip has never been used in hifi before and that it took him two years to sort through his non-audio chip sources to 'discover' it. The more important point Charles makes here is listening and listener preference/bias. Dan and I have quite different systems and rooms. Each of us has both a NWO-M (Dan gave me mine as a gift) and a Metrum. If we preferred the NWO-M, why would we listen to the Metrum? And if we prefer the Metrum, do we care about specs and claims that the NWO-M is wildly superior? At the end of the day other listeners present to hear either system could have a different preference. The *thing* that got us was simply that to our ears these converters perform on the same level. We preferred the Metrum (in some configurations in my home I prefer the NWO-M as I did in a recent review of Nelson Pass' SIT amp), someone else might prefer the NWO-M. But I'd be quite surprised if anyone in these sessions would point at the cheapie and call it "not even close". That's really the only point of my email to Charles. I can understand that Alex might be disappointed in such an opinion but to wave spec'ular superiority claims in the air as thought they prove we couldn't possibly be hearing what we do (or respond to it the way we do) is simply silly. And even if engineering *could* prove it (which it can't) - there's no arguing personal taste -:) |
Good observation Jcote, the same thought cross my mind. In the end it does`nt matter and does`nt alter the fact that Srajan and friend feel the Metrum sounds fabulous(regardless of price or pedigree). They relied on their ears, and preferred it in their respected audio systems, In this context the specs and measurements are a very distance second in relative importance.They compared the two DACs "directly" and heard what they heard. These R/2R chips could be sourced from Walmart, who cares if it "sounds" better than NASA approved parts/chips. |
Interesting, not saying that this isn't indeed the DAC used in the Metrum however find it odd that the spec sheet mentions tv's as a primary use candidate when the Metrum site argues these are not used in conventional consumer industry. Unless you reverse engineered one of these I'm curious how you were able to identify the chip in use since that was supposed to be known only to the manufacturer and is a reason (competitive advantage) the Identifying marks are removed. |
"It`s all personal", Alex, always has been and always will be.Of course not everyone will agree with Srajan`s conclusions, you can`t get audiophiles to agree on anything in an unanimous fashion, it is`nt going to happen. Pointing out measurements don`t impress me at all, they`re a ton of components the look great on paper yet sound can sound like total crap, no need going that route again. Srajan owned the NWO-M and earlier this year and declared it the "best" digital playback he`d heard to that point(would you question his system or ears based on that?). to this day he still admires the NWO-M and feels it`s one of the very best. Obvoiusly they`re qualities with the R/2R Metrum Octave that he found better(personal opinion). Another thing, if one is`nt into trophy audio gear and judges instead on pure sonic criteria, there is much in high end audio that`s over priced. Conversely there`re many reasonably priced components that perform briliantly. I`d would never use the price of an object alone to determine which is better if there`s the opprotunity to compare directly, which both he and is friend did in this case. Best Regards, |
Hi Charles, It takes honesty and character to say a much less costly item is preferred over what you payed a large sum for and not make excuses True, though it is all personal and very much dependent on the rest of the audio components used for the evaluation, especially when it comes to a digital front-end, dont you agree? We did some quick research; for those interested in some specifications, here is a datasheet link to the DAC chips used in the Metrum: DAC8580 Check out the distortions (THD) and compare to some older audio DAC chips such as TDA1541A, PCM1704 and AD1865 also used for NOS DACs. Not to talk about the fact that the DAC8580 used in the Metrum has a built-in Digital Low Pass Filter, OpAmp I/V converter and output sections. Please dont get me wrong; at EUR800, the Metrum is probably a very, very good value (price/performance) DAC, and without a doubt it will make many audiophiles who like this type of sound very happy, but to even try comparing it to the NWO-M is rather funny, IMHO! Happy listening! Alex Peychev |
Lewinskih01, The Yamamoto is an oversampling DAC and as I`ve stated in several posts during this thread it is really an excellent sounding DAC. It is very natural,dynamic, liquid yet with very good detail/resolution. The Metrum Octave Takes these attributes and raises(significantly) them is my suspicion. |
Charles1dad, OK, you have me really intrigued now. If the Metrum can deliver as much detail as a Bryston BDA1 or Wyred4Sound DAC2, yet be as musical as typical NOS DACs...it might be IT for me. Given the tradeoffs between musical/detailed at these pricepoints, I was leaning towards a Bryston to go with my tube pre and amp, but then I saw this thread. A good thing is I'm patient too, so will be looking forward to your feedback. For reference, what has been your experience, if any, with oversampling DACs? |
Well, I`ll just say this, Srajan and his friend thought enough of the APL NWO-M to purchase it(it is`nt cheap). It takes honesty and character to say a much less costly item is preferred over what you payed a large sum for and not make excuses. Srajan clearly stated some will like the NWO-M more, and he`s right.I simply respect people who call it as they see it, plain and straight. Many reviewers would`nt have the nerve. Best Regards, |