The Zanden gets a very good rating on the HIFICRITIC performance scale, 105. However the new Audio Note gets a rating of over 400 on the same scale; let us all buy one. What was the price again? Oh, 192,000 pounds. Left my loose change in my other pants. All joking aside perhaps the question should be rephrased as "what is the world's best dac that anyone short of Bill Gates can buy"? I still like the Metrum Octave and it is around $1000. Their new model should be really good at 3-4x the price [ or possibly more, haven't seen the final price.]
Worlds best DAC
Went to CES this year to work on my transition to high Rez digital. I've heard many of the highly regarded players in my room or in others systems in the past. I'm actually very happy with my current cd based sound. As I listened to various DACS playing CD then high Rez, I was not bowled over. High rez was better, but only slightly so. The best (and most different) sound I heard happened to have one similarity. They were 2 non oversampling DACS with tube analog stages(Zanden and Ypsilon). These were without question the most natural sounding digital systems I heard at the show. They made CDsound miles ahead of high Rez. What gives?
PS: I understand the limitations of show auditions.
PS: I understand the limitations of show auditions.
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Stanwal, i did not even know Audio Note came out with a newer DAC. Is there anything to read up on it...just for fun? I have heard mixed things about hte Audio Note 5 SE...some say the best ever, others say not to believe the hype even though still excellent. I have recently spoken with someone who owns/is buying 9 SOTA digital systems for his showrooms...the best of the best for his showroom and customers. He felt the Zanden ranks towards the bottom of these 9 due to its flaws which are apparent relative to today's newer tech...but that in the right system, its own particular magic puts it back up near the top...but you gotta get the system right. perhaps same with Audio Note? Thanks for any guidance about the new Audio Note...what is it called? |
It is the CDT-Six disc playing unit , which weighs 36 Kg and the Fifth Element two box dac. The latter is a further development of the single box DAC 5 Signature. It used Analogue Devices AD1865 chips, which require two separate main cables. "The sound quality was consistently overwhelming, almost defying critical opinion, constantly demanding one's attention with the beautiful sounds it rendered from digital sources.". " I consider myself an exacting critic that demands high standards, but have been overwhelmed by the consistent inviting sound quality of this player". Martin Colloms from the review. He adds that his first reaction was hysterical laughter at the price but the sound was beyond anything he had previously heard and the only question was why had it taken 30 years to reach this level. Priced at 96,000 pounds each; out of my league but worth a listen if you get the chance; I don't even know if it is out here yet. |
the problem with the question " what is the best (fill in the component) is that the "best" has to be superior in all respects to everything else. is there any component in audio that is the best of its class, even if cost is no object ? for example, is there a best car ? is there a best person ? is there a best restaurant ? I think asking for the best of anything is a rhetorical question. I would say it is impossible to specify the best of anything, based upon inductive reasoning. |
I think both my modest cost mhdt DACs, SS Constantine and tube output Paradisea, are non-oversampling and both deliver excellent sound quality. Tube rolling on the Paradisea makes major differences. Both are keepers. I am a fan of the DCS ring DAC technology. The system I heard running the DCS Pucinni was some of the absolute best CD digital I have heard.. |
I own a SMcAudio Revision A modified McCormack DAC-1. I love it. I have never heard digital audio sound so much like real music. It's a lifelike, multidimensional, tonally correct, full-bodied presentation of the tunes. Mine will eventually be upgraded to "Ultra" status. If you can find a DAC-1 to upgrade and $1700, you just may have the answer to your question. |
If you go by the consensus of guys that have rotated the usual suspects of high end dacs through their system, I would say the top dog is the MSB Diamond. This consensus is not unanimous of course, but most folks with no budget constaint hearing it will say it bests all else they have heard and end up buying it. |
I wonder how the MSb compares to DCS? Each is based on some unique proprietary design elements. The focus on magnetic and other forms of noise reduction strikes me as a good and somewhat unique concept with MSB in particular. The concept is not particularly innovative but the application within the unit itself is somewhat unique and once designed and fabricated, would not sem to be a particularly expensive feature to implement. |
Hmm, I could probably make some of the same statements about the $350 used mhdt Constantine DAC I use currently as is made about the Trinity DAC at that link. Funny how the one guy condemns the craziness of high end audio then claims to have found the holy grail of DACs himself in the next sentence. The DCS/VTL/VAC/Nordost/Magico system I heard the DCS on surely cost 6 digits, many times more than mine. And in fact it sounded excellent in most all regards in a smaller to moderate sized listening room, one of the best I have heard. The DCS certainly held up its end of the deal. There are some things my setup does better, and almost surely vice versa. I'd need an extended comparative listening session between the two in the same room to know the differences for sure. As long as that is the case, I am happy with what I have without having to break the bank too badly. If there is a gap to close between my DAC and the DCS, I think the ticket would be to add a certified high quality clock device that would help assure minimal jitter. There are some of those out there I believe for reasonable cost. |
At the moment, probably this, read Piano Tuner's description. |
Best by what measure? Whose ears? Just yesterday I compared a $2.5K DAC to a $5K DAC. I heard the 2.5K DAC first - beautiful, musical lovely sound. Slightly shy in the bass but really nice to listen to. Then we put on the $5K DAC - in every way it was better - better bass, detail and life. But would people prefer it? Having been with people listening to DAC's I can assure anyone there is no way to tell - some will like the $2.5k DAC, others the $5k - everyone has different triggers that says - this is real. Check out the following: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2012/04/nad-m51-digital-direct-dac-initial-impressions/ I own both the M51 and PDX. To my ears the PDX easily bests the M51. It simply has greater life, detail and accuracy. But how did the above review characterize it? 'The PDX showed far greater extension in both frequency directions. Some might call this ‘air’ and ‘bass depth’. 'Team Lenehan’s box continued to display an immediately thrilling/arresting listen, but this time without avidity heard earlier behind CJ tubes. The listening panel felt that the PDX didn’t play music that you can relax into – it’s edge-of-your-seat stuff…and that’s where you remain. I picture myself as Malcolm McDowell in A Clockwork Orange, my eyes pinned open and forced to endure everything in front of me. More dramatic than subtle, the PDX is pure ultraviolence. It’s a preacher, all up in your grill with musical evangelism.' And that pretty well sums it up - every DAC, in fact every piece of audio gear - has a particular sound. The best is what particular sound appeals to you. Thanks Bill |
Berkeley Audio Design just announced their new Alpha DAC Reference. $14K. Berkeley Audio Design is extremely pleased to announce the availability of the new Alpha DAC Reference Series. The Alpha DAC Reference Series embodies everything we know about digital to analogue conversion taken to an unprecedented level – a level that requires new design concepts & new components at the edge of what is possible. The result is an immediacy and presence of music reproduction that is simply real. We literally designed the Reference Series before is was possible to built it. Almost three years in development, the Alpha DAC Reference Series uses components designed to our specifications that were not commercially available. Several suppliers were not able to meet our requirements which delayed the release of the Reference Series by more than one year. But those obstacles were overcome and now the Alpha DAC Reference Series is a reality. The presence & sonic reality of the Reference Series is the result of digital to analogue conversion at a new level of accuracy made possible by tremendous electrical & mechanical noise isolation coupled with extreme time domain stability. Ceramic circuit board materials are used in all critical areas and the enclosure is carefully engineered to minimize electrical noise while maximizing mechanical stability. The Reference Series weighs over 40 pounds and the entire enclosure is precision machined from a a solid billet of 6061 – T aluminum alloy. A new high output, all metal IR remote control with direct input source selection is provided with the Reference Series. Careful consideration was given to providing the highest possible reproduction of DSD files by the Alpha DAC Reference Series. 99% of modern DAC’s, including the Alpha Reference Series use mult-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters – even those who advertise “native” DSD compatibility. So, at some point, the 1-bit DSD stream must be converted to multi-bit for all of those DAC’s. We could, like many other manufacturers, convert 1-bit DSD to multi-bit within the Alpha DAC Reference Series and show “DSD” in the front panel display. That would be the easiest approach from a marketing perspective. But that would also mean increasing the amount of processing in the DAC during playback which would degrade audio quality, and audio quality is the reason the Alpha Reference Series exists. Fortunately, virtually all reproduction of DSD files using external DAC’s occurs with a computer based music server as the source. If the 1-bit DSD to multi-bit conversion is done first in the computer it can be performed with extremely high precision and superior filtering that preserves all of the content of the DSD file. Computer DSD to multi-bit conversion can be at least as good as that performed in a DAC and without adding processing noise near or in the D/A converter chip. Another advantage of computer based DSD to PCM conversion is that if higher performance DSD versions such as DSD 4x appear in the future they can easily be supported with a software upgrade. For all of those reasons, DSD capability for the Alpha DAC Reference Series is provided by an included state of the art software application that provides either real time conversion of DSD 1x and DSD 2x to 176.4 kHz 24 bit PCM during playback or conversion to 176.4 kHz 24 bit AIFF or WAV files. The software application is included in the price of the Alpha DAC Reference Series and is compatible with either Windows OS or Mac OS based music servers. The Alpha DAC Reference Series supports 32 kHz to 192 kHz 24-bit PCM through four input; Balanced AES, Coaxial SPDIF 1, Coaxial SPDIF 2 and Toslink Optical. Independent, single-ended and true balanced analogue outputs are provided. Dimensions are 17.5 inches Wide X 12.5 inches Deep X 3.5 inches High. |
Had a look at the review of the pre-amp - then the price. Guys - get a grip on reality here. Its easy to drool over mega priced gear and think because of the price tag it must be the best. However in practice I can assure you it's far from the truth. On the few occasions I have heard of comparisons of the mega priced stuff, and been involved in some myself, with stuff I believe is up there with the best but at a MUCH saner price - guess what - the saner priced stuff won. On the DAC front it was a DAC shootout with a number of DAC's but the two finalists were a DCS stack at its mega price and a $5K DAC called the Killer - the Killer won - much more musical and involving. My most recent experience was at an amp GTG where a hugely expensive Gryphon was at. Some thought a dark horse highly upgraded old Leak amp was the best - at an all up price of about $5k. I was so impressed I am going to get one and have ordered the Leak to get upgraded. The issue with mega priced stuff is the way we generally find out the REAL truth about gear is not by reviews in magazines - they have well known issues - but by enthusiasts like the people that post here reporting on then from direct experience. Due to their cost they are rarely if ever subjected to that very probing scrutiny. So it easy to get caught up in the romance of it devoid of the reality. Thanks Bill |
I currently own a CH Precision C1 dac with a Trinity preamp so definitely curious about the Trinity dac but very content with the C1 for now. I chose it over MSB, Totaldac, dcs as well as others. My dealer gets in the Trinity dac in two weeks so I'll keep you updated. Marshall Nack is correct though about the pre - it's unprecedented... |
Bhobba, You are right. But would would you have bought that amp based on reviewes/raves? You bought it because you had the chance to hear it. I think irrespective of the reviews/raves, one owes it to aution/hear it for themselves before pulling the trigger. However, that is not always possible, so one will have to rely on reviews/user opinions and take a chance. |
I'm not too interested in DACs really, as i'm completely addicted to vinyl. Using a nagra cd player for redbook playback when the CDs come out. Mrtennis, agree that there is no such thing as "best" anything. It's rhetorical and subjective. That said, after hearing a trinity phono at RMAF, i ended up buying one and it is creating the "best" sound I have ever heard from My records on My system. Trinity has developed some serious cred very quickly by those who have heard their units in their systems. In this case, it seems to be the reviewers that are catching up to users. While I also agree with the notion that reviews are to be taken with a grain of salt, I have found that reviews are really more for information about a product's tech and operational functionality. The description of the sound of a product is the part that I don't value too heavily from reviews as the sound quality is best left for users to hear for themselves. |
No mate - haven't heard the Lampi or done any comparisons with it. I did hear of one with a PDX and another DAC I cant recall with the Lampi - the PDX won that one. I have a big DAC shootout coming up - the best 4 DAC's I have yet heard - the Killer, The Phasure, the PDX and the Playback Designs. Date not set yet - my Killer hasn't quite been built yet. Each one is hand built and tuned to the system it will be used with. Mine will be set up to use the Off-Ramp via I2S, and either the DAC or my amp adjusted so no pre is used - it will be direct connected. Thanks Bill |
Since this thread is about world's best, then you should ask about the best Lampi, which is the Level 7 with DSD! Only people in Hong Kong have heard it so far, as 3 were initially made and another 3 are on order acording to Lukasz. They are also ordering Transports and demanding GM70 amps as well (even though they were initially only going to be made for Europe). Another Dac that should go in the mix is the Phasure NOS1, as that is getting great feedback as well. |
Since this thread is about world's best, then you should ask about the best Lampi, which is the Level 7 with DSD! Only people in Hong Kong have heard it so far, as 3 were initially made and another 3 are on order acording to Lukasz. They are also ordering Transports and demanding GM70 amps as well (even though they were initially only going to be made for Europe). Another Dac that should go in the mix is the Phasure NOS1, as that is getting great feedback as well. |
In my opinion, the "best DAC" would be the one that works in Pure DSD mode (that means converts PCM to DSD as well), and does not use D/A conversion chips which send/upsample DSD through Delta/Sigma modulators. Lastly, there shouldn't be any solid state components on the signal path, after the DSD D/A conversion (usually an FIR filter). Now, that is really hard to find. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
The Playback Designs does pure DSD and converts PCM to DSD. The Phasure eats it alive using PCM. Its closer via DSD but the Phasure is still clearly better. Prior to the Phasure the best sound I had heard was DSD using the Playback. The DAC shootout I am organizing will have both those DAC's as part of the mix and should prove interesting for that and other reasons. Thanks Bill |
The Phasure eats it alive using PCM. Its closer via DSD but the Phasure is still clearly better. I have the Phasure NOS1 DAC here, as well as many other DACs. Prior to the Phasure the best sound I had heard was DSD using the Playback. This just proves the fact that "best component" is only a synergy between all components in a given audio system. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
Alex Peychev wrote: 'This just proves the fact that "best component" is only a synergy between all components in a given audio system. :-)' Oh boy is that true - but it goes way way beyond that. Checkout the following review of a speaker that I lent to a guy in the US but thought, what the heck, while it was over there would get it reviewed prior to me selling it: http://www.stereomojo.com/LENEHAN%20ML1%20REFERENCE%20SPEAKER%20REVIEW/LenehandML1ReferenceSpeaker.htm You don't see reviews like that - but that's purely because most reviews in magazines etc are full of shite. The truth, the utter truth, is there is no best, there is no better, all there is is what people like in their systems. Two people can listen to exactly the same system - one goes - WOW - the other BLAH. I have seen it, and even with gear that by any objective measure such as waterfall measurements is a lot better. Thanks |
there is no best anything. there are only priorities, which when satisfied, please the listener. it is impossible to hear everything. one may prefer a dac among those which are auditioned, but that does not denote that it is the best. audio is a very subjective medium. so find something that pleases you within your price range and be happy. there is no product which is superior in every way to all other products. thus the question has no definitive answer. |
The truth, the utter truth, is there is no best, there is no better, all there is is what people like in their systems. Two people can listen to exactly the same system - one goes - WOW - the other BLAH. Yup, that is the case. In my opinion, the so called "personal taste" in audio is just what people are used to, which, in most cases, has nothing to do with realistic tonality of live (un-amplified) performances. Though one person will like Steinway and the other Yamaha grand-pianos, these both have to be reproduced faithfully in an audio system, so there are no preferences - it is either real, or colored. Since all audio systems are colored (cost no object), I personally prefer coloration that is closest-to-real. :-) Trying to minimize the BLAH and maximize the WOW factor, I have designed and built a complete reference audio system, from the power cables to the speakers, and I am very happy. You can check out the system (on Audiogon) under my signature, I have just updated it with the latest. Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
Since all audio systems are colored (cost no object), I personally prefer coloration that is closest-to-real. :-) Heard that one before. It looks like the way to go on the surface. Trouble is exactly what coloration is closer to real is a rather slippery beast. For example its well known by speaker designers that a transient perfect .5 alignment is the most accurate. Yet it sounds overly taught and anemic and a slightly less accurate .6 or .65 alignment sounds better subjectively. It just seems to be the way we are. Then we have exactly what parameter makes the biggest subjective difference. One of the DAC's at the shootout will be a Killer. It has an obviously colored valve output stage - not dripping in honey etc etc but there is obviously a trace of coloration that makes it sound lovely. But it goes to enormous lengths that really lower jitter. What's better subjectively - lower jitter or a less colored output stage. Who knows. Thanks Bill |
