Dear Thuchan, Can you elaborate on the necessity to "align" the Boulder 2008? I have never heard that term applied to a phono stage. Thanks.
Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?
Having owned many good turntables in my audiophile life I am still wondering why not one of the modern designs of the last 20 years is able to beat the sound qualities of an EMT 927.
New designs may offer some advantages like multiple armboards, more than one motor or additional vibration measurements etc. but regarding the sound quality the EMT is unbeatable!
What is the real reason behind this as the machine is nearly 60 years old, including the pre-versions like the R-80?
New designs may offer some advantages like multiple armboards, more than one motor or additional vibration measurements etc. but regarding the sound quality the EMT is unbeatable!
What is the real reason behind this as the machine is nearly 60 years old, including the pre-versions like the R-80?
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Dear Lewm, the Boulder 2008 phonostage comes with personality cards for the cartridge set up. The cards serve two functions - switches to set the electronics for the type of cartridge used at the input, and places to solder the custom load termination resistor and capacitor. The cards provide also a Demag function. I am using Vishay resistors. The perfect and ideal matching cartridge loading - as I have found out - is quite a busy job. I am pretty sure that most users only go for the shipped cards. This is what I also learned from the reviews :-) I also pretty much enjoy having installed two additional equalization cards carrying two more equalization curves, so now providing RIAA, EMI and Columbia. btw Mike Fremer was right with his assessment on this unit despite some users prefer tubed phono stages. |
Dkarmeli, just an excursion, when you read the article about the Atomic clock you may get an insight when digital really does sound great, the Dac in master mode and the word clockings steered by the Rubidium clock. What a difference! but these are details of a different world which is also very fascinating. I understand why most analogue friends don't believe in the quality of digital reproduction. Nevertheless if you ever get deep into it the dCS stack it is an overwhelming alternative, or not? |
Thuchan, Not so humble! Bavarian Voice? They have an uncanny resemblance to Kevin Scott's Vox Olympians. The back story should be as interesting as the speakers themselves. Good for you for designing your room. In my experience the listening space is a key component of the chain. A bad room will kill any sound system and a good one will elevate even a mediocre system to new heights. Here in the US, most people's listening rooms I visit are average at best and I have say lucky if they don't totally suck. Over the years I designed and built a number of different rooms for clients as well as a couple for myself. Of course starting from scratch with money no object budget creating a great listening space is relatively straight forward if you know what you're doing but setting up a decent listening space in an existing multifunction space within a budget is a very different challenge. I gained a lot of experience from my projects in manhattan, I totally understand your 2 year journey to build the room. I hope that you got most of it right by now. The Toho arms look magnificent, a rare gem! Glass or felt platter, like many of the choices we make has also to do with the rest of the chain and what direction we take tweaking that system. I can't judge your over all system sound from looking at the blog pictures but its enough for me to answer you differently now that I can see your MS setup. Initially I thought that you had the SX-8000 mk2 which was sonically more advanced than the original SX-8000. In this case I will say that you'll hear significant improvements with the AirForce One. You also introduced another variable going from inertia driven thread drive to motor driven platter, my guess is that you went this way to compensate for the FR-66. You gain some body and midrange energy at the expense of airiness and lower bass extension/definition. You might rethink the vpi setup if you replaced the FR with a 3012. Your blog is very informative to understand what you're comparing the R80 to. I thought that we're discussing subtleties and nuances here while in your system with those gorgeous speakers the R80 must be kicking Continuum and the FR-66'd MS butt big time! |
Dear Thuchan. Regarding the loading of the personality cards on your Boulder 2008, did you literally solder in each set of resistors, break them in, and repeat that process until you found the correct loading? I tried installing "clip in" connectors, so that I could quickly change resistors. Unfortunately, those connectors degraded the sound so severely that I gave up on that idea. Anyway, my question is this: did you discover any easy way to try out different resistor values? Thanks. |
Dkarmeli, only the BV's image appears similar to Kevins Vox Olympian. Ingredients, size, X-over and sub integration are completely different. But on this later more. I see you have a pretty good understanding of a good listening room. I also got the experience when travelling around the US (but not only here) that the room itself seems of minor importance to the good audiophile guys. Nevertheless it is always an arangement you are doing with your family and your life style. So I do understand. I sold my Micro Seiki SX 8000 II last month. It will arrive very soon on your continent. I loved this machine, was the first owner and it is a supreme table some even try to copy today. I did some tunings on my blue micro which brings it somehow in the same musicality. Regarding the Fidelity Research 66s I think we have two groups of Audiophiles. Those who know this arm pretty well, who are owning the matching table and wo did build it up perfectly and some others - they might outnumber the first group. Anyway thanks for your good hints and options you are describing. I will take them into consideration. |
Thuchan said, "I understand why most analogue friends don't believe in the quality of digital reproduction. Nevertheless if you ever get deep into it the dCS stack it is an overwhelming alternative, or not?" You're opening a can of worms with me Thuchan but since you asked for it here it is; The problem isn't as much the quality of digital playback but rather the digital's qualities, see the link in above thread. You can massage it as much as want to but you're not going to change its nature. From day 1 the CD was designed with inherent limitations by the engineers and copyright paranoid media companies like Sony. The production chain is highly flawed and loose so the best that you accomplish is more tweaking and that wont change anything meaningful. CD is a truncated facsimile a much larger file. Upsample it, reclock it digital lens it, green bands, demagnetize, shark oil, snake oil or any other band-aid you want to attach it, it still remains the down sampled, i.e. reduced quality commercial product and DIGITAL. This blog article is tweaker's porn. What are you hearing? The clock? The up sampling? The power cord? the digital cables? Was the CD a direct transfer from analog master or was it an oversampled 24 bit remaster which is another tweak? and the list goes on. So your analysis of this clock is really analysis of whole lot of different variables that have nothing to do with the source. I'm sure that you realize that once you introduce your first "AUDIOPHILE" tweak to your system you have altered the parameters. Audiophile power cords all have overt characteristics and coloration, after you put one in, your system takes on a new character and that character gets stronger with everything additional cord from this point on every modification or tweak that you make is predicated on the power cord's overwhelming character and not your components. You're basically chasing your tail at this point on. Every cable and every tweak introduces another character that you end up offsetting with further tweaks.Its a never ending money pit. Maybe this is where you and I differ in our final approach. For me, specially at these price points, if the equipment doesn't perform as advertised I'd get rid of it and replace it with one that works right. My philosophy is understanding the basics and nature of the subject to get the fundamentals right and only then one might make some adjustments to taste, like glass platter vs felt. In your shoes if I had spent years building a listening space and then have an expensive custom tailored speaker system installed, I'd never compromise it with resonators and traps. I'd spend that resource figuring out what went fundamentally wrong and fix that before applying patches that will ultimately lead to more aids. This is how I see the digital clock, another patch but not a cure. |
Thuchan said, "I understand why most analogue friends don't believe in the quality of digital reproduction. Nevertheless if you ever get deep into it the dCS stack it is an overwhelming alternative, or not?" You're opening a can of worms with me Thuchan but since you asked for it here it is; The problem isn't as much the quality of digital playback but rather the digital's qualities, see the link in above thread. You can massage it as much as want to but you're not going to change its nature. From day 1 the CD was designed with inherent limitations by the engineers and copyright paranoid media companies like Sony. The production chain is highly flawed and loose so the best that you accomplish is more tweaking and that wont change anything meaningful. CD is a truncated facsimile a much larger file. Upsample it, reclock it digital lens it, green bands, demagnetize, shark oil, snake oil or any other band-aid you want to attach it, it still remains the down sampled, i.e. reduced quality commercial product and DIGITAL. This blog article is tweaker's porn. What are you hearing? The clock? The up sampling? The power cord? the digital cables? Was the CD a direct transfer from analog master or was it an oversampled 24 bit remaster which is another tweak? and the list goes on. So your analysis of this clock is really analysis of whole lot of different variables that have nothing to do with the source. I'm sure that you realize that once you introduce your first "AUDIOPHILE" tweak to your system you have altered the parameters. Audiophile power cords all have overt characteristics and coloration, after you put one in, your system takes on a new character and that character gets stronger with everything additional cord from this point on every modification or tweak that you make is predicated on the power cord's overwhelming character and not your components. You're basically chasing your tail at this point on. Every cable and every tweak introduces another character that you end up offsetting with further tweaks.Its a never ending money pit. Maybe this is where you and I differ in our final approach. For me, specially at these price points, if the equipment doesn't perform as advertised I'd get rid of it and replace it with one that works right. My philosophy is understanding the basics and nature of the subject to get the fundamentals right and only then one might make some adjustments to taste, like glass platter vs felt. In your shoes if I had spent years building a listening space and then have an expensive custom tailored speaker system installed, I'd never compromise it with resonators and traps. I'd spend that resource figuring out what went fundamentally wrong and fix that before applying patches that will ultimately lead to more aids. This is how I see the digital clock, another patch but not a cure. |
Dear Kmccarty, yes,I did it exactely this way, soldered the resistors and tested, took them out and changed resistors. Following more or less the formula I ended up for instance for the Goldfinger v2 in the Cobra arm (coupled by XLR) with a 850 ohm Vishay resistor. This seems to be a perfect match for the Boulder. If you have many personality cards you can easily start a try out approach, going around the formula prescriptions. in this case soldering is really the way to go. Which carts are you running? Maybe I am able to give some hints from my tests. Good luck! |
Dkarmeli, i respect very much your position on analogue vs. digital - and yes here we may have different experiences, especially when it comes to a dCS chain with a perfect clocking system and the DAC set to master function. Regarding the system's capabilities you're writing that every component has an impact on each other. Very true! In a complex system like mine it is a challenge you have to deal with. I assume you know very well that the power supply for a dedicated listening room needs to be tackled very carefully. I therefore not only built up a complete separate current system for my listening room (with a remote fuse block) but also divided my system's power supplies by three diffferent big lines. The digital system runs to one, the amplification to another one and all other front end units like anlogue to the third one. These lines run in encapsulated pipe tunnels inside of the concrete ceiling from the fuse block in another room to the specific three outlet positions for the system. all distributions within one line will never interact with those of the other lines. Regarding room tuning I avoided using any fixed installations other than a high record board on the one long side and a high CD board on the other long side. the rear wall is covered by a high book shelf. This way reflections are managed and deleted in a very natural way. You see no glass surfaces in this room other than a skylight area at the rear side, and a small window at the right long side's front which can be covered by an automatic curtain. Controlling the first reflections in front of the system a special suspended wooden ceiling with a complex internal structure not allowing building up running waves is mounted. Also frequency related dispensers are used at the front ceiling. These are used on the bases of measurements taken and carefully placed. That's all. I think not so different to your overall philosophy. Regarding the clocking system of the dCS chain comprising the dCS clock as well as the Rubidium clock this is not tweaking how you call it. I look at it as the technicians at dCS do as well as an optimizing approach to a nearly jitter free transportation of the digital signal. Of course I agree it may sound from my description like I am doing a big experiment on certain units of this chain which obviously is the case somehow. btw. i do this in analogue chains with its many variables as well. i am just curious finding out the interaction of parts of a system trying isolating the weak points/parts. From your understanding of the digital medium I get the impression you will not enter this arena at all which is in line with your philosophy. Nothing wrong about this. From my point of view it is worth engaging with CDs and SACDs. |
Thuchan, Thanks for the detailed description of the room, very impressive! Power is a bitch in the cities. Many fine systems become unlistenable during the summer and now days since the last major brown out a few years ago in NY, the sound has never quite returned to what it used to be. Even a dedicated power system similar to yours doesn't improve things much in Manhattan, and to make matters worse we're 120v here. We moved to Utah about 1.5 years ago and fortunately we do have good power here. I haven't built the room yet but installed a separate mains transformer for the system and each component is on a separate line with its own dedicated breaker. Just started putting the systems back together so a long way to go. I'm not at all anti-digital it's the medium of our times and I spend a good amount of time listing to it. Even if its not something that I love I have spent a lot of time and money figuring things out, there;s no turning back from it. I'm not a dCS or Burmeister fan. I don't mind dCS's top DACs but I find their up-sampling games and external clock gimmicky and degrading. The 2nd tier DACs aren't anything to get excited about imo. Further I find their transport is sheiße, Back to the thread and your justified comment; Regarding the Fidelity Research 66s I think we have two groups of Audiophiles. Those who know this arm pretty well, who are owning the matching table and wo did build it up perfectly and some others they might outnumber the first group Just so that we're clear; http://www.pbase.com/ddk/image/152083798 Not set up yet but I have spent many ours listening to the combination. This is probably my last post here, but I would love to hear more on your speakers and exchange experiences. rgds, david karmeli |
Dkarmeli, I am sure you are succesfully building up your room. This is a wonderful stage in the life of an audio guy. Maybe it will never end - with the right instruments you already have, so many similarities that I really cannot understand what happened to you on the digital side. But that's another story. The Scarlatti Transport is not really Scheisse, maybe you are pointing to the former Verdi Philipps drives. I see you know already the most important words in this language. When my wife learned German some 30 years ago she started with all these expressions as she got told its a kind of survival kit. I agree the dCS stack is not easy boosting up to its optimum. I think many users out there don't know all about the capabilities of these machines. its quite a versatile system and it needs to be configured carefully, especially when you are using a masterclock (which you should!), also adding dither and on top maybe a rubidium clock in combination. The result then has nothing to do with a one box digital machine also not with the Meitners. You feel very much having fallen onto the analog planet. btw nothing else could satisfy me as an analog afficionado. I see you are preparing your FR-66s developing its virtues and blossoming to full scale. This is the job to do on the blue micro which also can be tuned ! I think I will write something about the speakers in the next time and let you know. Currently I am dealing with Neumann devices. I hope its not your last post here as you have shown profound knowledge in the thread's topic and I enjoyed it very much exchanging ideas and critical remarks with you and others. |
Dear Tuchan, All I remember from my high school German is the survival vocabulary, somehow you never forget it. I found what I liked a few years back and haven't found anything better and no its not Meitner. I'm not sure what you mean about boosting the dcs equipment to optimum. The recorded CD is all it can be, up sampling, adding dither, reclocking is just adding artifacts you can't improve or change that CD. Your DAC is what it is, the chip, the algorithm and the output stage isn't going to change. Master clock in a playback system such as this is pointless and a marketing gimmick. You're only adding salt & pepper. The purpose of master clock is synching multiple digital sources to multiple output channels. Here you have a single source, your transport going into the DAC, reclocking is only a game, what I'm surprised is that you find two clocks better than one, so you're reclocking the reclocked signal that doesn't need to sync with anything and liking it; that should already tell you that something is way off somewhere else. I use the FR66s primarily with heavy Ikeda cartridges like the 9 supremo & muss. My main problem with this arm is its silver wiring, I might get it rewired one of these days and see if I like it any better. I'm spoilt by the SME-3012, love how it sounds and the ease of setup is better than any other arm that I ever tried. I can align and set up any cartridge within 10 minutes on the SME and fine tune it with music in less than half hour. The FR is a lot more time consuming for me to get it right and even then I find the 3012 sonically superior with most of the cartridges that I use. SX-8000, how do you tune it. I understand the difference you get going from thread/inertia drive to motor drive, did you do anything else to yours? I see that you have a Neumann cartridge, you lucked out they sound incredible, now you need to find their tonearm. |
Dear Dkarmeli, in the beginning of my digital adventure I was very sceptical about all the gimmicks you are describing: upsampling, wordclocking etc. As the dCS stuff is a real versatile system I still doubt that all users do know about the different possibilities these units offer. i don't like to know how many are using 50 Ohm bnc cables, maybe in different lengths (!) or do not use the right connectors (yes there is an impact on reflection). digital cables are a complete different issue, there are basic technical parameters to be followed but it's also more than 1/0, you may know this. to keep it short, yes upsampling, using the right filters for the matching music makes a huge difference on sound. If you know how to handle you will be surprised about the terrific sound it can result in. not using a master clock is giving away a good portion of the good sound. you really need to test it. proper clocking is one of the most important issues in digital reproduction. Reaching more accuracy by a rubidium clock - in combination with the stability the master clock is providing - is worth a try. Of course you need locking the additional clock in the system properly, also using the correct menue options of your master clock. If you wouldn't be so far away I could demonstrate all the different effects. On the other hand you may be right when asking why is it so complex finding a satisfying way for reproducing digital sources like CD and SACD. In our beloved analog field it is maybe the same. Yes, you could end up with a 1000 dollar unit, coming with tonearm, cart, phono pre and everything you need to get sound from the grooves. Would you happily settle on this? I believe No! As you are working on your FR (cabelling - I did lots of recabellings, some I kept, so on the SME 3012 Ia or on the Ortofons) this shows the favour for improvement and testing. I don't have the vacuum lips you got on your blue micro, I had them on the SX II. I tested different turntable plates and finally settled with an Audio Technica AT6278. Also discovered when fixing the additional platter very hard to the Micro platter it improves the sound. Using the original RY-5500 motor I built in a very good new 240 V power supply to reach more precision and stability. Despite the results were very promising in the end I went for the VPI steering system providing me with even more possibilities. When configurating the three units (motor, table, fly-wheel) I also realized it is the best to isolate all units on separate artifical coral platforms thus avoiding vibration interactions. The vacuum pump got a separate damping box (btw nice and clever design :-) and is completely separated from the rack - this is the worst vibration source. Yes, the Neumann DST-62 is a very special cart. I am not sure if a Neumann arm (one has to find such a rare thing!) may carry all the positive characteristics of the cart. The EMT 997 and the SME 3012 Ia will do. I use the SME on my EMT... What about your system besides the blue micro and the 927? Among your many tonearm/cart/phono configurations which one is your absolute favourite? |
Some mentions here on the Bavarian voice even if off the 927 topic! they do call for some clarification. Thuchans speakers use the same design as vitavox folded bass horn just like Kevin Scott's, then Iwata horn, directional horn, etc....the resemblance ends there! I have had the fortune to hear both on various but long listening sessions. Different animals! Kevin has tuned his xover to his musical tastes and the smooth flow that Kondo amplifiers and electronics has on offer. Kevin's room is not tuned even if the walls of records and carpets do a stunning job. Thuchan's bavarian voice is tuned to render a more exact description of what is going on upstream...but no worries given the top notch sources, preamps and amps that grace thuchans room that is built to purpose. I would say that Kevin's are designed for the audiophile not seeking perfection but a particular sound that graces the ears and senses. Thuchan's are built with the help of audio minded individuals close to monitoring, and the tone and colours stem from the upstream equipment. What is amazing with thuchans is it works with all sources from vinatge to hyper high end modern....this is the thuchan I like! |
Just see the question now... I admit I do not know the response. Perhaps some economic's considerations, perhaps "modern" subjective tests are not the same (than elders), perhaps the technical approach of nowadays tends to lower the subjective quality, or a mix of all that. But, it is possible that a Bourdereau/Belin (the "big" one) sounds as good an EMT 927.In fact, it is built in the same manner. Not easy to compare such things. |
yannig, One could make this argument about other 'broadcast' quality tables as well.. Gates, Weathers, Russo, Technics, Sony, Harris, Presto, Lord, Schlumberger, Commonwealth, etc., etc., etc... They all had the same cost no object line of thought when building turntables that literally ran 24 hours a day. Given that, the EMT 927 seems to somehow come out on top, as 'the one to have' among audiophiles. I know I would chuck my beloved modified Dual 1229, and Garrard 301 in a heartbeat for one. Problem is, they are expensive and its hard to find one that doesn't have 'high miles' so to speak. Norman |
In the interim since he initiated this thread on the EMT 927, Thuchan purchased, restored, and re-plinthed a Victor TT101, no slouch among direct-drive aficionados. I would like to know how he feels about the EMT 927 in comparison to his new TT101. I don't necessarily accept that the EMT 927 is innately superior to other top of the line vintage decks, but it could be; I have never heard one. |
Lewm, Thuchan certainly has an eclectic collection of turntables. I never really understood why he did the Victor, but a good direct drive does have its place. I personally loved the Sony broadcast table he had for a bit as well. With regard to the EMT 927, you really have to experience it. It is astonishinly good. To me it is hands down head and shoulders above anything else. I really would love to have one. Tim Gurney, Eckarts former blog partner did a nice piece on his. Tim also has a grease bearing 301. Then again, I remember a massive Rockport and the wonderful Walker Black Diamond leaving a huge inpression on me at CES several years back. There are so many fine tables out there that most of us will never get a taste of. I have a feeling that any properly restored broadcast table would leave most all of us speechless. So many tables, so little time. =) Norman |
I've got a Victor TT101, too. And a much tweaked and modified Lenco sitting next to it in one of my two systems. The TT101 is very linear sounding and very musical. Linear in the sense that no particular register is emphasized (bass vs mids vs treble), and musical in the sense of rhythm, continuity, liquid-ness. (I fully realize how deficient language is to convey these nuances of difference.) In my other system, I have an SP10 MK3 with Krebs mods and a Kenwood L07D. So, you could say I have made a commitment to direct-drive. Yet, the Lenco is lovely too. |
Hi Henry, Yes, I can hear subtle differences among them, and yes, it is impossible or at least very difficult to sort out the root causes of those differences because of the tonearm/cartridge differences. However, I think those of us who regularly listen to a variety of different combinations can begin to discern what aspects of the sound are likely to be turntable-specific, especially if one keeps in mind that the major job of the turntable is to "keep time without a sense of effort". (I just invented that quote.) In my case, I cannot easily run the same cartridge on all 4 turntables, because the "upstairs" system is geared to LOMC cartridges, and the basement system is MM/MI-dedicated. Despite all of this variance, I am very confident there is a kinship between the "sound" of the L07D and that of the TT101, and what those two have in common is a coreless motor. The Mk3 with Krebs mod has acquired a similar flavor but with even more "drive" (terribly inadequate word, sorry). Before the Krebs mod, I would say the Mk3 still had greatest drive but not as much continuity/liquidity/musicality to the sound. I am very familiar with the two cartridges at play in my basement system (Grace Ruby with OCL stylus vs Acutex LPM320) running in my Lenco/Dynavector, so I can hear that the Acutex takes on a new dimension (I like it even better; it's rather shockingly good) running in the FR64S on the TT101. I intend to move the Grace over to the FR64S eventually, so I have a better bead on the Lenco vs TT101. The funny thing to me is that I was oblivious to MM and MI cartridges before Raul started his thread. Now he has gone back to MCs, and I cannot find a reason to spend big bucks on one of the high end MCs, even though I listen to two very good MCs upstairs. |
Dear @lewm : The @halcro question is a very good one not only for you but for each one of us with multiple TT/tonearm/cartridge's. Now, you said: """ it is impossible or at least very difficult to sort out the root causes of those differences because of the tonearm/cartridge differences. However, I think those of us who regularly listen to a variety of different combinations can begin to discern what aspects of the sound are likely to be turntable-specific. """ well in your case is not only the tonearm/cartridge diferences but two totally diferent and independent audio systems in a diferente venue where we can must handle diferent degradation kind of distortions because both systems are diferent and with diferent TTs both. I made emphasis on TTs because you said: """ I am very confident there is a kinship between the "sound" of the L07D and that of the TT101, and what those two have in common is a coreless motor ... """ I respect your opinion but seems to me that because each TT belongs to a totally diferent audio system with diferent tonearm/cartridge combination and all that opinion could be on the " air " and maybe not so " confident " as you said. Anyway, good for you that now what " move " to you is the MM/MI alternative that's is a very good one and a real aternative to the LOMC that's a great one too but a " little " diferent. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Having experimented with quite some tables of all drive technologies I was fascinated with DD drive the first time when I aquired a Nakamichi TX 1000 some 10 years ago, a more or less Micro Seiki design with a MS direct drive. The Denon 100 was my next win in this specific field. I don't remember very precisely but I think there was a guy `Down Under always pushing me to go for a Victor 101 DD table. Maybe I was not the only one :-)). When I listened to the Victor in Sydney my surprise was quite obvious. Okay I thought, maybe I should give it a try despite the complex electronic design of the Victor, thus showing that many ingenious development teams had "collaborated separately". I had experience with that phenomenon when refurbishing the electronics of the Nakamichi.
Accidentally in 2015 I bought a Victor 101 wreck in Canada going for full refurbishment. After one year of learning about the circuits, the motor design, the necessary chips etc. my repair shop was able to bring the Victor back to life... This table now is completely up to date.
So I started comparing the Victor 101 with my Denon 100, the Continuum Criterion, my big Micro SEIKI and the EMT R80 (927). Or to put it in other words, looking how the small guy performs in comparison with the Big Monsters. Let me state beforehand I am using different phono stages but on a very equal level: Zanden II, Boulder 2008, EMT JP 66, Kondo M7.
Comparing the tables at this session I am using similar or the same MCs but different tonearms: on the Victor- SME 3012 R II Pro and Continuum Copperhead. On the Denon -Exclusive EA10 and Denon Dynamic Servo Tracer. On the Criterion -SAEC WE 8000 and Continuum Cobra. On the R80 - SME 3012 I and Ortofon RMA 309. On the Micro - SAEC 506/30/FR 66s. Cables are usually Crystal Cable Dreamline or Ortofon TSW-6000
In the end there might be many parameters which are not matched or comparable. When I talk about my impressions it is a very personal and individual assessment based on the experiences I collected with my units in my listening room. The record I used on all tables was Miles Davis – Kind of Blue, Original Master Recording (MFSL 45 rpm, 2015).
I also have an excellent master tape copy of Kind of Blue which makes it easier to get an idea what the pressing and the turntable/tonearm/cartridge/phono-pre combination is able to deliver.
After isolation tuning and some other small improvements the Criterion/Cobra plays on the perfectly adjusted Boulder 2008 in such a convincing and stable/quiet/thrilling way that I always shake my head in disbelief when I read depreciating comments on blogs around Boston. I guess these boys never had the chance listening to these units in a chain, other than on audio fairs.
The Micro with a modified motor and double fly wheel connection does his job as good as the 5 times more expensive new version. The trumpet of Miles and the Saxophon of John are staying in the room like in a small Jazz hall, just as you are sitting close to the stage, direct, open, precise and catching you. Nevertheless the EMT with it's idler drive - the unit is as old as me- is able to add a nice punch providing an even slightly deeper sound stage. The bass, and I don't mean rumble noise (:-P), is just perfect. Still my favorit.
When it comes to the two direct driven tables the majestic and technically superb DENON astonishingly does not beat the small Victor. Both units deliver a fantastic wide and deep sound, even better than the big Sony which I would regard as an excellent table but a bit overrated, also due to Sony's tonearm geometry.
Having in mind how much you need to invest for all the Big Boys - Ah, I still love them - you may reconsider if it isn't worth going for a refurbished Victor 101 in a good plinth. The man in Sydney must be very happy in his rocking chair...
...and I am enjoying Miles from this wonderful new MFSL pressing on the Victor 101!
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As I sit in my rocking chair in Sydney, I thank you Eckart for that extensive (and exhausting) comparative exercise. It would be invaluable to most of us who have never heard an EMT 927 or big Micro even…..to hear how the Japanese DD decks compare in all the usual audiophile categories like soundstage, depth, transparency, palpability, timing and frequency reproduction? Perhaps you could elaborate when you have a chance…? |
Eckarts in Germany, halcro is in Australia, and I am in the U.S. shaking my head after reading the comparison. (thank you.. very well done) I am surprised that the little Victor gets such high praise. I believe that the Victor 101 was the JVC QL-10 here in the states. I remember them. I also remember that it wasn't even their best effort. Do an internet search for JVC QL-A70. I think this was their top of the line turntable for many years. Direct drive, heavy plinth and a substantial platter. Similar to the Series 20 (Pioneer PL-590) in size and weight. Makes me wonder how that would compare to the 101? Happy to hear that the EMT is your favorite. In the two or three times that I have had an opportunity to listen to the 927 it just stands out as the finest table ever. When I think about how good it is, I can't even listen to my humble Dual and Garrard... I have heard similar comments about the Continuum/Cobra turntable and I don't understand why? I especially like the bearing design in this turntable, and I believe that is where much of it's 'magic' comes from. The Cobra arm will always be the subject of much debate, due its design. Truthfully, it looks very difficult to set up. Norman |
The TT-101 was the greatest stand alone motor JVC/Victor ever produced. It was a professional Reference motor unit made to compete with the Technics SP10/III, the Pioneer Exclusive P3/P3a and the Kenwood L-07D. http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-101.html The later QL-A75 and QL-A95 were integrated turntables with the motor units based on the TT-101 but Victor never again produced a motor unit more advanced or as complex as the TT-101. The TT-801 was a TT-101 with a vacuum hold-down pump added. The QL-A70 is a toy in comparison to the mighty TT-101 👅 |
halcro, Obviously I had no idea and was way off the mark. It also makes more sense now. I am really intrigued by this table. This morning I was scanning the Internet to see how available they are. I see that yours is in a open style plinth, while Eckarts is in seemingly low mass plinth as well. Is that more desirable than a high mass plinth for this table? Thankyou for adjusting my thinking here. N. |
Norman, I used to have my Victor installed in a stainless steel cradle http://i.imgur.com/2FH8xGR.jpg But have since had a solid granite one made http://i.imgur.com/S97uGns.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ddKNHVx.jpg Thuchan had an identical cradle made from my drawings except his was fabricated out of slate. Probably better....👀 |
Henry, Thanks for the photos. I especially like the custom arm pods. Looks tremendous. I would imagine that Thuchans sounds excellent as well. I have heard many good arguments about using arm pods as this de-couples the turntable plinth from the arm. I have often thought of trying it myself but my Dual and Garrard are both set in traditional hardwood plinths with single arm mounts. If I come across an affordable Victor I may contact you for the drawings of your plinth. Thanks again Henry. Norman |
This thread is flawed by design: "I am still wondering why not one of the modern designs of the last 20 years is able to beat the sound qualities of an EMT 927" One set of ears. One listening room (less than perfect, maybe). So many variables from needle to speakers and everything in between. This is subjectivity with a huge S. |
Sonicbeauty, If you've read even some of these post you will find that it's not just one set of ears, or one room, or one cartridge. Many here agree with Thuchans thoughts on the EMT. Those that haven't heard one for themselves can take comfort in knowing that Thuchans listening room is built from the ground up as a 'no compromise' listening room using only the finest in electronics and source material. He also has a stellar collection of high end turntables and tonearms a that are considerably more expensive than the cost of his EMT and provide him with a platform to give an 'unbiased' assements of the turntables strengths. Most of us don't have this type of room or equipment to properly make such a comparison. In fact most professional audio reviews don't either. Norman |
The statement '' ...no other TT will...'' is obviously provocative but make no logical sense. ''no other'' is equivalent to ''all''. If the ''all quantor'' is used without restriction we get ''set theoretic paradoxes'' . Besides how is it possible to judge any TT made in the future? The unknow TT's are impossible to compare with the existing kinds. What Thuchan should state is: ''there is no other TT in my experience which is equal to my EMT''. But this is a totaly different stetement. |
nandric, That's taken completely out of context. The question was "Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?" So, it's a question, not a statement. Logically then, we can easily conclude that it is a question he is personally pondering given his own experiences. So, given that Thuchan posed a question and did not make a statement your "all quantor" and "set theoretic paradoxes" leaves through the window. Furthermore, no ever said anything in this post from my recollection about the EMT besting any and all future turntables. |
normansizemore07-06-2016 10:04am" ... The question was "Why will no other
turntable beat the EMT 927?" So, it's a question, not a statement." It's both statement and question, because the question is based on the premise that "no other turntable" can best the EMT. It commits the logical fallacy of "begging the question," which is the use of a circular argument. |
Normansizemore: I appreciate your post, however your blanket comment "using only the finest in electronics and source material", please, this belongs to the museum of past over-used statements used in our hobby. By the way, through my business dealings and clients (many are friends), I do have access to a 1million+$ listening room (no kidding). I just find those "challenges" about gear hype is so useless and so subjective. PS: And I stand behind my "one set of ears" comment. As the original post is one's experience. |
And I stand behind my "one set of ears" comment. As the original post is one's experience. As are most critical 'reviews', be they of films, cars, cameras, restaurants and yes......hi-fi. The important aspects to an individual review of 'anything' are the credentials of the 'reviewer'. In this case, Thuchan's are impeccable. Sonicbeauty however is an unknown quantity.....🤓 |
Sonicbeauty, Keep in mind this is a forum, where we all have opinions, likes and dislikes. There are no 'absolutes' when it comes to ones tastes or preferences and there are no 'rights and wrongs' either. I used to own an large expensive McIntosh system. It was wonderful, but then I found that vintage Sansui was more engaging, and more 'musical' to 'me'. I have friends that think I am out of my mind, but it doesn't matter what they think. What matters is what I think, and what I enjoy. This is the same with anything we talk about here. I can share my experiences and preferences with others, and they do likewise. Thucan has found the EMT table to be superior to anything else he has listened to or owned. I happened to agree with him as do many others. And maybe he didn't use the best 'english grammar' to express that, but cut him some slack… He's native language is German, though he speaks fluent French, and English among others. halcro is spot on however when it comes to Thucans credentials. I am wondering if you even realize what type of system he has? My statement 'using on the finest in electronics and source materials' couldn't be more accurate. Finally, judging from your comments I am guessing that you have never listened to an EMT 927 turntable. Norman |
Dear Terry 9, The logic can't say which statements are true or false. The logic state that contradictory statemens can't be both true and also that correct deduction can warant the truth if the premise from which de deductions are made is also true. Your ''any statemets '' is as problematic as the quantor ''all'' without any specification or limitation. BTW quantors are not names and have no reference . Consider the statement ''someone has stolen my car''. The clairvoyant person who knows whom this ''someone'' is will become rich in one week time. The insurance companies will offer to him whatever he pleases. Now regarding ''all turntables''. Both Thuchan and Dertonarm are my friends. However Thuchan is rich and Dertonarm is not. The coincidence is that Dertonarm just produced his APOLYT TT. Impressive regarding its technical merits but also qua price. Who would buy the APOLYT from my beloved Dertonarm if this EMT is for, say, $10000 to get and a priori the best? So I expect an folow up from Thuchan with the title '' Why wiil no other TT beat APOLYT?" |
Norman, before I became an audiophile, I liked Sansui every thing. One friend had a Sansui tuner that was beautiful, and I liked it a lot. My best friend had Sansui speakers with that beautiful lattice front; and almost every Hi Fi store used Sansui tuners for background music. As much as I liked Sansui at that time, I guess I didn't own any because I had too many other priorities; but I always found the sound to be very musical, in a low key kind of way; although the sound wasn't boring, it was relaxing, and I never tired of listening to Sansui gear. I wonder how I would like vintage Sansui, compared to present gear that has been rated by "Stereophile"? My tube amp would be close to Sansui sound, but preamp is almost clinical. As I recall, Sansui was warm and engaging, with a sound that I couldn't tell you exactly why I liked it, but I never got tired of listening to it; maybe that's the same way the EMT 927 turntable affects people. Enjoy the music. |
