Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Norman
My 927 came with a Ortofon RF 297 arm.  I was told by the people at Dusch in Germany it was made for mono use and I would be better off with a RMA 297 or the EMT 997 arms to use with the TSD cartridges.  I am not sure what I want to put there.  Dusch offered me an exchange for a 997.  
I will most likely send them my 139st to have look at and make sure it is operating at its best.  
I want to mount a second arm on mine like Eckart(thuchan) did with his,  I just need to fabricate something.

Too bad you couldn't keep you EMT.  
Any advice from anyone is always greatly appreciated.

Paul

pcosta,

I purchased a 927 and the restoration was expensive.  I did not have the 139st, which I really wanted.  I have heard the 139st and it is just superb!  I don’t hear any shortcoming in it at all.
I was using a 3012 and my 1966 Denon 103.  Even with these compromises the results were outstanding.  I have a highly modified Dual 1229 with a Grace 747, and a Garrard 301 with a SME 3009, and the EMT was so superior it was laughable.  Keep in mind, I love the sound of my Dual and Garrard, but the EMT seemed to provide so much more information and solidity to the music.  The 3012 is a good arm, but as Eckart has told me it’s really not the best choice for the EMT.  
I regretfully sold the big EMT (my living room is my listening space and the EMT in its broadcast frame doesn’t blend well with furniture - my wife hated it).
Eckart (thuchan) can recommend a proper arm/cartridge combo for you.  He was extremely helpful to me as his knowledge of the table setup was priceless.  
If you have the space, this is the last turntable you will ever want.  It’s such a joy to operate, and is a listening experience I wish everyone could have.  I miss my 927 every single day.

Norman

Dear Lewm,
yes, I still have the TT101. And do use it in my bedside system. Wonderful DD. 
Clearaudio is a good company, especially in the higher region. The Goldfinger, from the V2 version is just a great cart.

best
E.

Hi thuchan,
are you still also using the TT101?

if one is going to make a declarative statement about clearaudio vs 927, is it too much to ask that at least the cartridge should be held constant, as well as all downstream equipment? This is coming from me; I have a bias in favor of the EMT 927. So I am not offended by the statement that the 927 outperformed the clearaudio.

I am using new short EMT-headshells putting in different carts like the Ortofon-A 95. I also found a Fidelity Research FR-7 in Japan built into a short EMT headshell (original design). You may also use a second arm using heavy weight carts like the Neumanns or EMT Mono Bakelite. 

My R 80 carries no phono. I rebuilt an EMT Phono by two EMT Mono designs of the sixties with new caps etc. It makes a lovely vintage sound, different to the EMT-66 which I also use.

Playing with this „Monster“ table you know why it is so damned good! Of course you may accommodate it into a nice listening room 😊 ( audiocirc).

Best
E.

Why do these comparisons always have to be so fair.  An EMT 927 usually only is seen with the ORTOFON RF 297 ,the RMA 297 or the EMT 997.  So that means usually with a TSD 15.
The EMT is a system with or without their phono.  
So whats wrong with saying EMT 927 as a whole is better or preferred over the Clearaudio Statement which usually as "system" with their linear tracking arm.  A listener can't make that statement without validity since the arms and carts or phono is not the same?

I just got myself a EMT 927 of my own,  and have yet to listen to it.  It needs a little TLC to get it "working" at its best.  But to still have people to reach out to and get parts and service for a product this old is wonderful.

Of course anyone can make any claim they want, but if there are multiple variables involved in a comparison of single items in a system then there is nothing further to discuss. This forum would become just a list of the preferences of geographically isolated individuals, which would be a total bore.

As long as the caveat " in my opinion " is attached, people are free to make any claim THEY, THEMSELVES " believe to be a fact based opinion in their own world. In the rest (real) of the world though, opinions will certainly and without fault differ. What you focus on and hear will never be  "exactly" the same to the next set of ears attached to an opinion and personal preference,  in spite of and regardless of the broader experience one thinks to have experienced vs. the vast population, and the choices known, unknown and discredited personally for both valid and perceived biases. There is alot more going on to make anolog soar in the whole system including the room and the music chosen to make grand statements. Even if all systems and rooms were equal and exact....I would bet the amount of tables others would choose "personally" as the better or besting the EMT would be surprising if not a cause to have your inner voice loudly exclaim....WTF🙈!!!

Also, you don't mention the tonearms and cartridge(s) you are comparing. That could make a big difference. I would hope at least that you mounted the same cartridge on each of the two tonearms, if the tonearms are not identical.

Totally agreed, I've been used EMT-927 for some time and there been a real dilemma with phono cartridges. So, figuring out that I just can't spend all my time in changing and tries I found a lot of information on the web. Not everything was useful but I was happy when buying Shure M97xE. So, for now, I'm happy to hear a brilliant sound (that's only my opinion).

If it can be useful for anybody here, read the review about those cartridges, for that just visit site and read. Sheared because I'm happy with my choice. Good day to all of you.

Are you able to swap the phono stages, in order to pinpoint the source of the differences you hear?  I am not at all surprised that the EMT927 per se would outperform the Clearaudio, assuming the EMT is in tip-top condition, but I would be surprised if the Allnic is not superior to the built-in EMT phono stage.  However, this only reflects my own biases.  It's worth a try.

Also, you don't mention the tonearms and cartridge(s) you are comparing.  That could make a big difference. I would hope at least that you mounted the same cartridge on each of the two tonearms, if the tonearms are not identical.

I found just today this old post. I did´nt read all posts, but just want to say that I have used during last 30 years several turntables and the last one was Clearaudio Statement combined with Allnic H-5000 Phono Pre Amp up graded by me. Two days ago I installed EMT-927 with original EMT-139ST phono amp and the difference in favor of EMT combo was too big, too important, still I can´t belive that. 

@thuchan 

We supply the GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DN308 Professional with any arm our customer wants - so far have used SME312S and SME312, Kuzma 4.14, Triplanar U12 and  Ikeda IT407

The arm boards are removable and we can supply new boards down the road should a customer want to install a new or second arm.

Good Listening

Peter
  

Lohanimal,
thanks for your assessment of my page. Agree that people have a different listening approach or let`s say preferences. Among many of my friends are enjoying vintage systems. They do not care about the sometimes missing bass which is ok when you are listening to some forms of Jazz etc.
Regarding the Dartzeel I am using the CTH-8550 in my bedroom system. BTW I do agree with Mike Fremer who is using the big mono blocks in his solid state based system. I have never heard a better sound from a solid state system than with the Dartzeels. In my big system I am using a tube based approach.

Best
E.

Nandric,

Affording is the one thing, but what you make out of the components is the other. All Turntables owned by me - good! We may agree on this, but pls. look on my page...

Best
E.

Peter,
I have seen the original Denon 308 "in live". Just a very impressive instrument, full of electronics - which was part of the time then. Your integration of the DD motor in your new chassis is a good effort, only the tonearms wouldn`t be my first choice :-)

Owning a perfect Denon 100M I regard the DD motor as one of the 1st important parts.

Best
E.

Well  :-)

http://pbnaudio.com/audio-turntables/vintage-direct-professional/dn308


Good Listening


Peter

Dear Nandric,
maybe you are partly right IMO. Yes myth can sometimes influence judgement, but in many cases, time tells the truth. 
All the people who have listened and compared old EMT, Thorens, Garrad, etc to some of the best tables of these days can’t be only influenced by myth when they prefer old timers. Also old TT have to be very carefully restored for being competitive.
Imagine that if old people with all their knoledge and experience  could be « restored «  as well... 🤪

I mainly know 3 TTs : Linn LP12 I had for several years, TW Acustic I currently have in my system and the Thorens TD124, that I listened in my system 2 weeks ago.
No restored 124 are equal. Personally I heard the Swissonor’s 124 with a 200Volt tension and all the restored pieces they made for them and for Shopper.
Both Swissonor and Schopper know the 124 needs, among other good things, an electric tension lower than the new 230 or 240V used in Europe.
Also the new tonerarm made by Swissonor is a clear winner that has been made for the Thorens wonder.
With the new bearing and a motor that is completely dismantled, greased and some parts changed, (a 4 days work by a skilled technician) there is absolutely no rumble at all.
For me the best of the 3 I really know by a wide margin. As soon as I can I want to buy one but I also ask myself how and if a 930 EMT could compete (927 is out of budget for me). 

I've been using my EMT-930 extensivelty lately and mentiuoned that it
generates much static to the LPs.
From your experience what should be the best solution?

The belt stuff you can get a at auto parts store.  There are different brands.  In regards to tubes listen to a all Direct Heated Triode tube system.  Now we are talking real live music.

If the solving to get around a certain size salom course had real profit to it we would see a better solution today.  With out to much thought carbon fiber/ceramics/electronics etc.

I do get your point but I really think the all mighty dollar is the real culprit here.  The C.D came out because of profit not sound.  The first stuff was terrible.  After that where is the market to support any real R+D.  Just think if we just the engineers who do the military stuff just making new motors.  You can see my line of thinking.

The one thing that does not seem to change with time is power/money/greed.

Tom

That's interesting - what iss the belt tack stuff that you use? I have, amongst others, a deck using a thin polyamide belt - that was used due to the fact that it has low energy transferance. Must say that the Denon 103, and tubes a tad over-rated - that said - getting back on track so to speak EMT cartridges are excellent, having heard the VDH, Roksan, and Brinkmann versions.
My simple point with car analogies and comparisons was not by way of comparing cars to hifi in the manner you think, i used cars as an example of where, in many fields of engineering there are designs that defy time with regards to the application of technology to a problem. They exist in cars, watches, civil engineering, medicine - the list goes on. I will add that 40, or even 100 years is nothing in terms of evolutionary history considering the age of the universe...

The car example was related to things in the past are better than things today.  Your example of a car pretty much built for the race track vs a car which meets smog,  idles, gets pretty good gas mileage etc etc etc is not a good comparison.  A better comparison would be a 67 big block vette vs the new high dollar monster.  The only thing the old one does better is bring back memories.

Now if you want to talk audio some old quad 57's with tube amps and a 927  with a denon 103 cart, maybe we can have a example of midrange perfection.

In regards to the ice example I am using 14 guage silk thread with belt tack stuff and/or rosen. I have thought about your concern and will experiment with different materials.  But with the silk thread you can really hear a difference with the higher torque motor.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

BTW tom - if you have a high torque motor, and heavy platter - that torque won't be transferred to the platter with a silk thread - a bit like sprinting on ice

Caterham 7's were never F1 cars. That said the original Ford GT40 from the 60's was faster around a track than the 00's incarnation.

It would be instructive to audition the VPI DD.  I have never heard quieter. Spooky.....  Absolute speed accurate..  To ME....a bargain priced masterpiece.

Everyone likes to use car examples.  The problem is they are seldom correct.  Correct me if I am wrong, we are going to compare a Caterham 7 to a current formula 1 car.

The reason we do not have the totality kick ass turntable for a reasonable price is the all mighty dollar/pound etc.  And it does not help that most people could give a rats ass about music.

That being said when it comes to audio electronics old is where it is. Direct heated triodes/transformers/chokes simple circuits and we have music that sounds like music.

I would love to hear a 927.  I am building my own turntables and the best so far are large mass platters and high torque motors.  These are heavy silk thread driven.  Probably have to try idler before its over.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

Hi Thucan
Love your audiocirc page. You're clearly a man with comprehensive listening experience (and tastes...)
Whilst not 'on topic' I noticed that you have a Dartzeel Amp. I've heard quite a few Dartzeel amps, and they get rave reviews the world over, but to me - I just don't like their sound. My point being that our tastes reflect our differences in physiology often, and they then manifest themselves in the choices we make.
I've never had a chance to hear an EMT 927, but I have heard restored Garrards and Lenco's and they sound so full of life, and I think they are astonishing. I don't think one ought to limit a belief in the brilliance of a product as a result of age. Caterham 7's are amongst the best track racing cars and they were made in the 60's. The Concorde hasn't been repeated despite being made in the 70's without the computers we have now. A hand made George Daniels watch is still more accurate than a quartz mechanism.
I have a yet to be restored EMT 950 - and it makes nearly all modern super decks look like toys - they have considered and integrated every aspect of the design. Maybe the 927 is like the 'great white shark' evolution never required it to be altered.
There are few true groundbreaking products out there - most new products are sales driven. The 927 was designed to go into stations and not require the EMT engineers going out to fix them. Nowadays things are designed to be fussy, and constantly repaired - maybe a sign o' the times.
Anyway - I am now going to ogle at your website

Dear lohanimal,
You are very right on stating that people are different and also their listening customs vary quite much. I do think that when we have practiced a good time in our hobby, also having enjoyed good systems, our ears get trained being enabled to hear the overtones too while at the same time some frequence rages in the communication and higher areas may get lost.
I am very open to other tables as you may see on my AudioCirc page. I am not listening to my R 80 only. And there are other excellent desings out there. For me it is always an excitement comparing good tables and experimenting with different phono chains. Nevertheless I am always puzzled how a 60 year old design is able to beat some of the modern 100.000 tables.

Can I just add that there is a very knowledgeable uk salesman (company name escapes me) he has a Rockport Sirius amongst his collection. He also sells various decks second hand. Of the affordable decks he rates the Townshend and Funk Firm decks ery highly.

Dear Thucan,
Have you ever considered this. All people are created differently. This means that even our hearing is different. 
As we know some people are high frequency sensitive, Others are tone deaf (may explain a lot of mainstream music these days), some are timing sensitive (like me).
As we age our high frequency range gets curtailed, but we tend to better at listening. Other things we were sensitive to such as timing, tone, or image placement, becomes more prominent.
I personally like timing, so I tend to like fast electronics, sealed and/or planer speakers; tone lovers may well go for warm and lush sounding equipment - such as Klimo valves; some loe high resolution so they love DNM for instance.
As a result of all of this, can it be the case that for your ears nothing other than the 927 will float your musical boat?
Sorry to say this but have you considered psychoacoustics here - let's face it - in the UK unless a turntable was made in Scotland, ran a tiny bit fast and was belt driven - then nothing else would do - even an EMT 927 or a Rockport Sirius!

Dear kmccarty,

You are coming quite a good way being familiar with the idler technology as well. Having tested many DDs like Nakamichi, Sony, Micro Seiki etc. I ended up with a Denon 100 and Victor 101. For me all different drive technologies bear advantages and some downsides too.

Yes, the EMT 927/ R-80 can. It is not only a well built massive machine but also absolutely stable in speed. My R-80 does not have a felt brake which was introduced to level down the slightly overdriven speed (a planned design feature). This means you will not hear that kind of brake noise. Nevertheless the big and robust synchronous star-shaped motor makes a little noise which you don’t hear anymore when going one meter away. Additionally I am using the Dusch Multiconverter DU 937. It provides the R-80 with a variable frequency, thus controlling & adjusting the revolutions by electronic measurement. Using the Timline the stable light shows me I am keeping exately the right speed. In this way I cannot use the R-80’s inbuilt stroboscope. The DU 937 is also a high grade fine net-filter against frequency and voltage variations.

I am carefully speeding at below +3 % in the variable modus (+/- 10%) thus avoiding any vibrations by the motor. This is important, otherwise the internal phase spacer of the motor will change his working points and allow vibrations.
My EMT has not an inbuilt phono stage allowing me to use the EMT JPA 66 pre/phono pre.

Yes, the excellence derives from the wholistic design and the precise building. It is a lot of fun operating the big switches, starting the platter from the first moment while the massive table rests on the heavy and cleverly constructed suspension frame

Nice Post kmccarty.
I also remember my listening experiences with the Rockport Sirius III which stunned me.
Although there were problems in the lower registers (which may have been caused elsewhere in the system)....I too have never since heard the same explosive dynamics nor detail intensity from a turntable.

This thread has caused me to read all I can find about these EMT turntables, specifically the 927 and 930. Like Lewm, I doubt that I will ever have the opportunity to actually hear one, but they do have an extensive following around the world, so maybe I will have the good fortune to hear one someday somewhere. I am somewhat skeptical about any turntable declared the best that is also unobtainable, since its greatness can't be widely verified.

Over the years, I have collected nice representatives of the various design approaches to turntables. For direct drive, my prize is the Krebs-modified Technics SP 10 MK 3 resting in the Porter panzerholz plinth; for idler drive, a nicely restored and heavily modified Thorens TD 124; and for belt drive, the Basis Debut Signature Vacuum. All of these produce great sound. The Technics is peerless in speed stability (borne out by the Sutherland Timeline moving less than an inch on a wall 24 feet away over the course of one side of a record) and casting a huge soundstage, although not as huge as the Basis. For sheer beauty of sound, I turn to the Basis. There is something magical about the Basis' ability to reproduce a concert hall in my listening room, but with a vague uneasiness about speed stability in general and more so in heavily modulated grooves, also borne out by the Timeline. The Thorens is idler driven as are the EMT tables, and the Thorens occasionally impresses me with pace and attack but little else. Although I listen mostly to classical, the Thorens has a very persuasive way with jazz. But I do love them all and play them all often; maybe the Technics a little more often than the others.

Please understand that I know the Thorens is a complete lightweight compared to the EMT tables, but I don't like the noise and vibration produced by the Thorens' drivetrain, which I believe seriously impairs the sound compared to the utterly silent drivetrains of my Technics and Basis.

I once heard the big Rockport table at the home of a well-known record producer at Sony / CBS. I will never forget that. Speed stability in the extreme and dynamics the likes of which I've never heard before nor since from a turntable. (Could the EMT do this, I wonder? Based on what I read, it could. Maybe.)

Funny story about my only encounter with an EMT. When I was a teen and audiophile, a friend who was an announcer at the local classical radio station, would let me into the control room. They used an EMT 950 (if memory serves correctly) that gave the radio station endless troubles with reliability.

I'm providing this background only to set the stage for my questions and not to provoke any debate about my own findings.

Thuchan, could you comment on the EMT's performance in the areas of noise and vibration from the drivetrain? About speed stability as measured with the Timeline? Do you think the excellence of the EMT is due in part to its wholistic design; that is table, arm, cartridge and phono preamp? I am very impressed with the "overkill" platter size and bearing size of the 927 and the huge motor which should laugh at stylus drag.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on these questions.

Dear Lewm,
There are some 927 in the US. Recently I just got information from a friend who aquired one from a studio in Illinois. Of course you need a good restoring shop - but there should be some too. So there is hope 😉.
You're right on the sorcerers in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands.
The R80 and the Continuum are two different animals. I enjoy the Criterion very much. Nevertheless - and here you are right again - the EMT is my favourite.

Dear Thuchan, I have never seen an EMT 927 in the flesh or even up for sale anywhere in the USA. So, it is unlikely I will ever get the opportunity to hear one, let alone buy one.  And then if you buy one, you need to know the right sorcerers (probably in Germany) to bring it back to life, such as you have done.  But it does seem that you have here voted for the EMT 927 over the Caliburn, in the context of your latest post. 

Dear Lewm,
Suspense is the most important ingredient of a good thread.
Suspension is one of the secrets of a good working 927!

I see you are philosophically locked. In this case there is only one doctor who can help but I see he already came running into your direction.

Why is this idler drive being able to reproduce music from a record in such a fantastic way? I am sure it has something to do with the technological concept, the building quality, the big motor which summs up to a revolving stability just from the spot. You do not have it with a 930 in the same way. But look at the many good answers on these pages which should give an idea why it is the way it is.

At the moment I am using a DST 62 in my old Ortofon tonearm tracking with 6,25 p. The SUT which is transfering the phono signal to the EMT phono pre is a Neumann BV33.
You need to hear this, it is a stable, powerful and harmonic sound, not highlighting the highs or the deeps in one or the other direction. Do you mind if you are confronted with a powerful sound, clear, precise, warm & with a deep dimension picture?

This is not a gentle breeze or a softly singing bird just allowing you to do other things while listening. Here you are entangled and engaged. You like this? Whenever you have the chance to audition one of these machines which are older than we pls. let me know that I am not completely on the wrong track...

Nandric, That is a question I do not ask. If I continue to own them, it is because I like them.  I was just pulling Thuchan's leg, a little.  Do you have that metaphor in any of your many languages?

OK, so the suspense is killing me, Thuchan. WHY indeed will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?  After 9 pages of responses, surely we must be closer to the answer, even if we are no closer to the question.

Dear Nandric,
It's not about competing. We want make you happy :-). Your TTs are good tables but not in the top range. Anyway it is only a suggestion. You do not need following us but do not minimize the importance of a good drive. It's where it all starts...

Dear Nandric,
not caring about TTs is a position of extravagance you are taking. I know you are provoking a bit. May I propose you are going for a very good table and put your tonearms and carts on it. You might then return and tell me about your new life :-)

Yes, I can blame Raul as well for a larger collection of cartridges and wanting to be able to interchange them easily. ;^)

nandric, I agree you have two very fine tables and most hobbyists would be completely happy with either one.

Years ago after the Kuzma products became available in the US I wanted to buy a Stabi Reference but could not afford one.  So I bought a standard Stabi (oak plinth with heavy oak and glass lid) along with a Stogi Reference arm.  I felt it was very well engineered and built and so enjoyed the performance.  However I wanted to utilize various cartridges and the Kuzma system with the fixed headshell and no accommodation for a second arm didn't lend itself to that.  So I sold it and bought a SP-10 Mk 2A and soon after a EPA-100 arm and MicroSeiki MA 505S arm.