Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?
I assume that Thuchan owned or owns the must TT's among us. The reason is simple; he can afford many. So he can state : ''from all TT's which I owned the the best is EMT 927''. However there is a diffrence between ''all turntables'' and ''turntables owned by Thuchan''. The so called ''set paradoxes'' occur when the set in casu is either to large or not well specify (grin). |
Peter, I have seen the original Denon 308 "in live". Just a very impressive instrument, full of electronics - which was part of the time then. Your integration of the DD motor in your new chassis is a good effort, only the tonearms wouldn`t be my first choice :-) Owning a perfect Denon 100M I regard the DD motor as one of the 1st important parts. Best E. |
Lohanimal, thanks for your assessment of my page. Agree that people have a different listening approach or let`s say preferences. Among many of my friends are enjoying vintage systems. They do not care about the sometimes missing bass which is ok when you are listening to some forms of Jazz etc. Regarding the Dartzeel I am using the CTH-8550 in my bedroom system. BTW I do agree with Mike Fremer who is using the big mono blocks in his solid state based system. I have never heard a better sound from a solid state system than with the Dartzeels. In my big system I am using a tube based approach. Best E. |
@thuchan We supply the GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DN308 Professional with any arm our customer wants - so far have used SME312S and SME312, Kuzma 4.14, Triplanar U12 and Ikeda IT407 The arm boards are removable and we can supply new boards down the road should a customer want to install a new or second arm. Good Listening Peter |
I found just today this old post. I did´nt read all posts, but just want to say that I have used during last 30 years several turntables and the last one was Clearaudio Statement combined with Allnic H-5000 Phono Pre Amp up graded by me. Two days ago I installed EMT-927 with original EMT-139ST phono amp and the difference in favor of EMT combo was too big, too important, still I can´t belive that. |
Are you able to swap the phono stages, in order to pinpoint the source of the differences you hear? I am not at all surprised that the EMT927 per se would outperform the Clearaudio, assuming the EMT is in tip-top condition, but I would be surprised if the Allnic is not superior to the built-in EMT phono stage. However, this only reflects my own biases. It's worth a try. Also, you don't mention the tonearms and cartridge(s) you are comparing. That could make a big difference. I would hope at least that you mounted the same cartridge on each of the two tonearms, if the tonearms are not identical. |
Also, you don't mention the tonearms and cartridge(s) you are comparing. That could make a big difference. I would hope at least that you mounted the same cartridge on each of the two tonearms, if the tonearms are not identical.Totally agreed, I've been used EMT-927 for some time and there been a real dilemma with phono cartridges. So, figuring out that I just can't spend all my time in changing and tries I found a lot of information on the web. Not everything was useful but I was happy when buying Shure M97xE. So, for now, I'm happy to hear a brilliant sound (that's only my opinion). If it can be useful for anybody here, read the review about those cartridges, for that just visit site and read. Sheared because I'm happy with my choice. Good day to all of you. |
As long as the caveat " in my opinion " is attached, people are free to make any claim THEY, THEMSELVES " believe to be a fact based opinion in their own world. In the rest (real) of the world though, opinions will certainly and without fault differ. What you focus on and hear will never be "exactly" the same to the next set of ears attached to an opinion and personal preference, in spite of and regardless of the broader experience one thinks to have experienced vs. the vast population, and the choices known, unknown and discredited personally for both valid and perceived biases. There is alot more going on to make anolog soar in the whole system including the room and the music chosen to make grand statements. Even if all systems and rooms were equal and exact....I would bet the amount of tables others would choose "personally" as the better or besting the EMT would be surprising if not a cause to have your inner voice loudly exclaim....WTF🙈!!! |
Of course anyone can make any claim they want, but if there are multiple variables involved in a comparison of single items in a system then there is nothing further to discuss. This forum would become just a list of the preferences of geographically isolated individuals, which would be a total bore. |
Why do these comparisons always have to be so fair. An EMT 927 usually only is seen with the ORTOFON RF 297 ,the RMA 297 or the EMT 997. So that means usually with a TSD 15. The EMT is a system with or without their phono. So whats wrong with saying EMT 927 as a whole is better or preferred over the Clearaudio Statement which usually as "system" with their linear tracking arm. A listener can't make that statement without validity since the arms and carts or phono is not the same? I just got myself a EMT 927 of my own, and have yet to listen to it. It needs a little TLC to get it "working" at its best. But to still have people to reach out to and get parts and service for a product this old is wonderful. |
I am using new short EMT-headshells putting in different carts like the Ortofon-A 95. I also found a Fidelity Research FR-7 in Japan built into a short EMT headshell (original design). You may also use a second arm using heavy weight carts like the Neumanns or EMT Mono Bakelite. My R 80 carries no phono. I rebuilt an EMT Phono by two EMT Mono designs of the sixties with new caps etc. It makes a lovely vintage sound, different to the EMT-66 which I also use. Playing with this „Monster“ table you know why it is so damned good! Of course you may accommodate it into a nice listening room 😊 ( audiocirc). Best E. |
Hi thuchan, are you still also using the TT101? if one is going to make a declarative statement about clearaudio vs 927, is it too much to ask that at least the cartridge should be held constant, as well as all downstream equipment? This is coming from me; I have a bias in favor of the EMT 927. So I am not offended by the statement that the 927 outperformed the clearaudio. |
pcosta, I purchased a 927 and the restoration was expensive. I did not have the 139st, which I really wanted. I have heard the 139st and it is just superb! I don’t hear any shortcoming in it at all. I was using a 3012 and my 1966 Denon 103. Even with these compromises the results were outstanding. I have a highly modified Dual 1229 with a Grace 747, and a Garrard 301 with a SME 3009, and the EMT was so superior it was laughable. Keep in mind, I love the sound of my Dual and Garrard, but the EMT seemed to provide so much more information and solidity to the music. The 3012 is a good arm, but as Eckart has told me it’s really not the best choice for the EMT. I regretfully sold the big EMT (my living room is my listening space and the EMT in its broadcast frame doesn’t blend well with furniture - my wife hated it). Eckart (thuchan) can recommend a proper arm/cartridge combo for you. He was extremely helpful to me as his knowledge of the table setup was priceless. If you have the space, this is the last turntable you will ever want. It’s such a joy to operate, and is a listening experience I wish everyone could have. I miss my 927 every single day. Norman |
Norman My 927 came with a Ortofon RF 297 arm. I was told by the people at Dusch in Germany it was made for mono use and I would be better off with a RMA 297 or the EMT 997 arms to use with the TSD cartridges. I am not sure what I want to put there. Dusch offered me an exchange for a 997. I will most likely send them my 139st to have look at and make sure it is operating at its best. I want to mount a second arm on mine like Eckart(thuchan) did with his, I just need to fabricate something. Too bad you couldn't keep you EMT. Any advice from anyone is always greatly appreciated. Paul |
Pcosta, “Made for mono use” when applied to a tonearm can only mean that it is wired for true mono, with only two signal carrying conductors between headshell and the tonearm output single RCA plug. That situation is easily rectifiable by any of several persons who are competent to rewire tonearms. I see no reason to discard the tonearm that you have just because it is said to be mono. Even if there are only two contact points between the end of the arm wand and the headshell, even that can be fixed. One can purchase a replacement plug that is capable of stereo, with four contacts built into it. |
So, did you exchange the original Ortofon RF297 arm for an EMT RF297? What don't I understand? My only point was and is that there is in reality no such thing as a "mono" tonearm, provided one is willing to re-wire. I would have guessed that re-wiring is less expensive than doing an exchange with a dealer, tonearm for tonearm. That was my secondary point. |
Paul, I agree with lewm, there is no reason to discard the arm. Rewire if necessary but if the bearings are good I would use it. I used the 3012 because I had it. It worked fine, just not the best choice. The 997 would be better, because it is better. My modest vintage hifi is in a nice cabinet in my living room. The broadcast 927 was just too big and industrial looking. I had considered trying a smaller EMT, but I don’t think anything would be like the 927. The biggest thing with my 927 was taking the motor apart and cleaning and lubing. The motor was a little noisy when I first got the turntable. After it was restored it was very quite. I didn’t even need to repaint mine. The enamel paint was so thick it would take a hammer swing to mar it. It was soiled, as was the entire turntable. The platter bearing is huge, and was perfect. My bearing was oil based, but I have heard that some are also grease fitted. (Like Garrard). I also had the glass platter. Some are fitted with persplex. The only other turntable that has impressed me so much was the Rockport Sirius III, which a client of mine owns. I wish I could have heard them side by side. I also had the broadcast frame. My frame was spring loaded, so you could jump and the turntable wouldn’t move. The frame is designed to sit into a console which if you have the room I would recommend. The TSD cartridge makes sense. EMT and Ortofon has many high mass choices. I also used my Decca Red which worked well. If you have space, this is a no compromise turntable. I wasn't planning on selling mine. A fellow agon member asked to hear it. Afterward, what he offered me on the spot was about three and a half times what I had into it. So, reluctantly I sold it. As I said, I miss it everyday. Eckart has some incredible turntables, but if his system were mine, I would sell them all and keep the EMT. Norman |
Have a look at the differences in the two arms supplied with the EMT 927 before they started making the 997. Part of the problem with the RF 297 is it is a heavier arm then the RMA 297 and it may not balance the TSD carts as well as the TSD. http://www.stefanopasini.it/EMT927-930%20Ortofon%20arms.htm |
The biggest thing with my 927 was taking the motor apart and cleaning and lubing. The motor was a little noisy when I first got the turntable. After it was restored it was very quite. Mine is in very good shape cosmetically. I would rate it an 8 out of 10. It has a suspension frame too. I want to do a good cleaning, dismantle the motor to clean and lube and then install the new motor mounts. I have a local tech who will most likely handle the powersupply electronics replacing caps etc... |
The resurrection of this thread prompted me to take a look at current values of an EMT 927. I was surprised to find that asking prices of examples that are for sale range from about $5000 US to about $40,000 US. Samples in the latter category of course are beautifully and immaculately restored. But samples that are in the low-end of the price range don’t look so bad either. What’s up with that vast difference in pricing? |
I think the low end is very exaggerated and probably a scam. Pricing also depends on which 927 it is. ST is most common. There are D version with the glass platter and F version which has two arms on the chassis, those two you don't see as many. Then there is the R80 which preceded the 927 which very low numbers were made. Options on the tables also affects value, if it has a phono either the early tubed mono phono which is desirable or the stereo tubed phono. Then you have the SS phono which is less desirable. If it has the groove indicator, the quick stop for the platter, the suspension frame, which arm, and general condition. EMT's are rare but not unicorn rare. There are many always available if you want to pay. The great this is you can still get great support from multiple sources with parts and expertise. |
Mine came out of a radio station and was well used. It didn’t have the 139st either. I’m surprised that you can find them for so low a price, but maybe? If you’re in the market, I would certainly take a look because you never know. The tech I used was familiar with EMT tables and rebuilding them. But honestly they are so straight foreword any competent tech can probably do a fine job. I’m gonna check out the link you posted from Stefano, I know he used to own an EMT 930 for awhile. That’s an interesting thought on the tone arm differences. N. |
Norman, What I found to be odd, when I looked on Hi-Fi Shark, was that the pricing fell into two groups: ~$5000US vs ~$30,000US (although I chose to quote the highest price, $40,000 in my recent post). There were 3-4 tables available in each of these two price ranges with nothing in between, which is to say, nothing in the $7K to $20K range. The high priced examples were "like new" based on photos. Some of the ones seen on Hi-Fi Shark could be expired, meaning the tables have been sold or taken off the market. |
lewm, $5000.00 for a respectable 927 is an amazing deal. Really, clean, lube and adjust and their ready for another 50 years. I’m not saying that $30-40,000 is crazy, but isn’t it? If that were pocket change to me I wouldn’t spend it on a turntable, or any other piece of hi-fi equipment. The system I’m listening to today is quite a bit less expensive then the one I used 10-15 years ago, and yet today I’m enjoying music more than ever. Off the merry-go-round. Norman |
I try not to judge either audiophiles or audiophile equipment based on what the former spends or what the latter costs, but I am amazed sometimes, on both counts. Nevertheless, here we are talking only about the merits of a particular turntable, and I may be the first since the inception of the thread to have brought up $, for which I apologize. If you knew what my long term investment (over the course of 40 years) in my two separate systems is, you might count me as a sybarite. On the other hand, I have never paid $40K for a turntable and never will. But if I had to choose one of my audio systems over the other,.... I could not do that any more than I could work my way up to selling any one of my 5 turntables. |
Lewm I am taking a sonic chance on the EMT 927. I really don't know what I am getting into as far as the sonic ability's of these big turntables. I had to sell my former turntable to help afford the EMT. Buying this was a opportunity that didn't allow much time for hesitation, but I was able to inspect it in the flesh. The seller was not willing to ship and I was close enough to make the drive and see it. So less risk of a scam or any misrepresentation of the unit. The odds of being able to see one so close to me were low and to see one in Canada and not having to bring the thing across the border or ship was another bonus. I could only use the online "hype" of the EMT to help me this purchase. The risks are low, at least from any financial loss at the price I paid for mine. It wasn't cheap, but not $40K US. I was able to buy mine in CND $. I have had a least a couple of "if you don't want it, I will take it" emails. |
Dear thuchan, Glad to ''see you back''. My thesis was that this question should be put in present tense because as stated it should apply for all times. Now speaking of ''present tense''. I am sure that you have heard the(new) Apolyt made by our friend Dertonarm. This TT must be better than EMT 927 considering the price difference (260000 euro)? |
Dear Nandric, as we see tables rising into half a million I am out of this race. The only one who will be left are you. I heard the Apolyt twice, in Dietrichs new studio it sounds perfect! My R-80 should have doubled its price in the meantime 😊. It is now as old as me. Should I order an Apolyt for you? best E. |
Dear Nandric, a question of age, ears or room condition? i was approached by some people who are wearing ear plugs all the time. They told me it will improve the capability of listening, also to good music. I checked myself, so far everything is fine, except of a little valley at around 1000 Hz. No need at the time being. Room condition: With your new Apolyt arriving soon we might change your room condition a little. Sleeping room or living room? Shall I accompany the table transport? never forget friends, especially when they are music lovers. Enjoy. best E. |
Dear thuchan, My worst ''subject'' at school was mathematics. So you can understand that using to many variables is not to my liking, or, better, to my capabilities. Regarding my age I hope ''the older the wiser''. Reg. my ears I never needed to visit an ''ear specialist''. Regarding my room acoustics I give up. To complicated for me. But, lucky me, like you I have two systems one of which is in my bad room. Much smaller but more to my ''innocente'' liking. I had no idea that you are so good in teasing. |
Bear in mind that the BBC used to employ the highly regarded idler drive Gates turntable before switching to the Technics SP10. The Technics was seen as more reliable and maintenance free but I don’t recall anyone saying it sounded better than the Gates. Yes, these new recent Technics decks improve the phenomenal specs (speed stability and rumble etc) even further into the realm of Sci-Fi but perhaps turntable design was as already good as it ever needed to be by 1970! Perhaps someone could do an original SP10 v new SP10 to confirm this? Or perhaps there’s no need! Anyway let’s not forget that many of the so-called audiophile decks that followed couldn’t get anywhere near to the specs achieved by the Technics and a few others. *Here's a link to an interesting review of an SP10 mk2 by none other than British DJ Kenny Everett from Studio Sound dated September 1977! https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Studio-Sound.htm (<9mb PDF Studio Sound September 1977) |
Most my age have heard the SP-10...many times. No one will ever argue that it isn’t a fine table, but it will never deliver the Pace-Pitch-Power of a 927. Even the lesser Duals, Garrard, and Lencos with idler drive display this quality. But when you’re talking about broadcast built tables, EMT , Gates and Russco Studio can’t be matched. Honestly, everything about the table, from the actuation of the speed selectors, to the feel of the spinning platter let you know that what you are using is something very special. It’s such and impressive machine. Then there is the music, you never knew you vinyl could convey such emotion. Even with modest tone arms and cartridges the results are stellar. N. |
recently i’ve acquired a Saskia model two idler. the Saskia model two has a 180 pound one piece slate plinth, a 40 pound platter, and uses a 3 phase Pabst motor designed to run large film reels for colorizing film for days on end in a commercial application. i’ve heard a nice EMT 927....but it’s been a couple of years. without having them side by side with the same arm and cartridge it’s hard to know what exactly would happen, my sense is that the Saskia goes farther down the road with the same 927 strengths, and adds a lower noise floor, much greater detail and textures, and more expansive sound stage. ultra tonal density, phenomenal flow, rock solid sustains and explosive dynamics are fundamental to the Saskia model two. i have a 1/2" Studer A-820 in my system which has a similar type presentation. nuff said. it’s crazy good and i love to listen to it. |
