Well, I've heard it said "ignorance is bliss". I have also heard and experienced much bliss down Mexico way. Great place to "get away" from "modern technology" Lots of history to "discover" there as well. There is nothing wrong with enjoying history. I quite encourage it. Having knowledge of the past protects one from repeating the mistakes of the past. Without an in depth knowledge of history, we would be unable to ducument our progress to the current day. I am sure most would agree Black and White photography actually brings something to the art. No one would use it however, to "recreate" an accurate depiction of the subject matter, outside a black and white world. One would employ modern technology to accomplish that. The higher (newer) the technology employed , combined with the expertise at exploiting that technology, the closer to the original the result will appear. Some folks prefer a paint brush to recreate the picture they "see". Very few painters however, would try to convince anyone their art could be mistaken for the real subject matter. Or that paint and canvas is "unfortunately" all there is. Unless perhaps they were "cut off their ear nuts"! Z. |
Remember it's not your experience that matters, it's how many toys you own.
Ole' |
Raul,
The real high-end of Audio is rarefied indeed.
The vast majority of listeners will never be able to hear the true cutting-edge designs in their own systems, in their own listening environment.
If one were to evaluate advances in audio design by the satisfaction of the general user with his own set-up, then yes......Micro-Seiki and Technics and Pioneer would probably all figure prominently.
At most stages in my 30 year experience with audio, I have been ecstatic with my own system and found it hard to imagine how the sound could improve?........until I inserted something better.
And that something better was inevitably NEWER.
That doesn't of course mean that EVERYTHING newer is better.
I still have the same speakers I started out with 30 years ago simply because I can find nothing that sound remotely better.
I had my Regar Planar 3 turntable for 30 years (despite hearing Linns and Sotas) because nothing new sounded significantly better to me.
Similarly with my valve Kebschull pre-amp and Perraux power amp.
Even after buying the Halcro Pre and Power amps, I could still happily go back to my 30 year old Kebschull and Perraux which together with my speakers would put my system beyond yours in terms of antiquity.
What I could NOT happily go back to (now that I've heard the Raven with Copperhead)......is my Rega Planar 3 with Hadcock arm.
We are not saying that ALL new designs are better in Audio.
We are saying that truly BREAKTHROUGH designs and better DEVELOPED designs will enable a closer approach to the source than we have previously had.
And those who brush this off without the opportunity to hear for themselves, are merely penalising themselves needlessly. |
Toys? Antiques? Artifacts from a previous generation? Physical evidence that proves just how far we have come with our hobby/avocation?
Sir, I believe Linears are/have benefitted from SOTA mat'ls and such as well. I'm saving my allowance as we speak. I am having difficulty with one decision: I could have many low value/quality tonearms and cartridges, or I could invest in one or two New High Performance arms and cartridges. Is your son going to many "crappy" med. schools or just a couple that are the best he/you could access? HHMMMM.... Z. |
Halcro, If it's alright with you, I will just forward my thoughts to you in synopsis form. And let you eloquentize them. Your prose sir, and your (I need a word to put here) are well, really good. SOTA, if you will. Z |
My son is two years out of med school and has promised to buy me the system of my dreams some day...Z!!With his med school debt,I'm not counting on it,and would gladly settle for a nice Barollo.-:)
My Siemens 6922's in phonostage)are as old as Methusala,but have not been matched.I've tried "everything" else!!
Like Halcro(almost),my Avalon Ascent MK-II speakers are seventeen years old(modded,and with the addition of a REL Stentor II sub,coming in at 24 hz),maintained to literally a museum standard,and are GORGEOUS to both hear,and behold(irridescent olive wood,unattainable today),and 460 lbs with two external 55 lb each crossovers!!!I have a penchant for "accurate" quality speakers,MUCH more-so than analog,even.Yet,these speakers(designed by Charles Hansen of Ayre)simply "kill" any new choices that would appeal to "me".Anyone having sold these off,for the newer replacements definitely have NOT heard what they are capable of,with todays better electronics...I've tried to find better,for me,but so far no-go!!Even my friend's Magico beauties fall short,in air,and what a true sculptured stage is!And I love those Minis!
The rest of my stuff is just about new,or mega modded,but this business of new as better I take with agrain of salt,when figured into a "total system package"!For my tastes.
Start the stone throwing... |
Sir, I can get the wood for you, direct from Italy,if you ever find anything you prefer. The POINT is, you know it could be better, you don't decree that "unfortunately today system is nobueno". Or the sillier(?) "you could try it!" Your mind is not closed shut, and buried up your you-know-what. Savvy? You agree that such an attitude is mui peligroso. You have no need to feel simperwensa. Si? Z. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " ...until I inserted something better. " +++++
I totally agree with you till here.
+++++ " And that something better was inevitably NEWER. " +++++
IMHO I think that that something better could be newer or not so newer, the subject is: BETTER. Because like you posted: " That doesn't of course mean that EVERYTHING newer is better. " +++++
Halcro I think that you an me are talking almost on the same.
Do you think that I'm using " old " tonearms because I like to use " old " ones, NO I'm using it because till today I don't find nothing better ( New/newer or " old " ).: that's all, I already try it: Morch, SME, Triplanar, VPI, Graham, etc, etc and overall I prefer what I use today.
Now, from my cartridges, " new ones ": Allaerts Finish Gold, KRSP, Colibri, XV-1, 90X, etc, etc. I like it but my " old " ones like: Goldbug, Victor, technics, ortofon, etc etc, like me too and my new and old MM ones are part of that " I like it ".
I like you, Sirspeedy and many others own a very old speakers ( heavy tweaked ) that are not the best out there but that are very near to that best one.
I know and agree that is almost impossible to have at home only cutting edge audio items but I know people that have it and its quality whole system performance is poor, in the other way I know people with not " only cutting edge " systems that its quality system performance is really good.
Like I already posted the ideal is the combination of in deep know-how with no money barrier. But if know-how has no substitute money has it!!!
IMHO know-how has no substitute, you can't buy your own ( self ) know-how, you have to learn and obtain through the everyday long time own experiences and from other experiences too. IMHO the first experience/know-how to obtain a decent or high quality music/sound reproduction on our own systems is the in deep experience on live music/live events, preferably with acoustic music.
Some of my audio friends are people with very low music experience and when you hear/heard their systems you know that, no one of those systems sounds really good far from there because they don't have " music appreciation " that you and me have.
Many people out there and in forums like Agon speaks about quality music/sound reproduction at very " high level " ( at least is what they think. ) and when you ask them: how many hours of live music do you hear every week ( well no. ), every month? they have not and answer but all of them are " experts " and they believe it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Halcro
" I had my Regar Planar 3 turntable for 30 years (despite hearing Linns and Sotas) because nothing new sounded significantly better to me. "
This combo I have heard and the Linn is a LOT better to my ears than the rega 3. I demoed both models at home back at home in 1985 before I moved from my old $129 pioneer to the stratosphere price of the then Linn.
Fortunately or unfortunately it was hearing the Linn that got me to this obsessive compulsive luv of music and hifi to play it on.
BTW, Just bought the new Gutter twins LP ( Mark lanegan from Screaming Trees and Greg Dulli from Afghan wigs) - brilliant, dark and haunting. Sonics quite good as well.
Also picked up the new Akron family, Hot Chip and mark Callaghan ( Smog) LP's great stuff.
New Rhianna and Timbaland Lp's are great as well - no great sonically unfortunately - a little compressed. |
Gidday Mate! Yeah, I had to let that one go... Mr Halcro has helped me too much. The Linn should be night and day to the 3. Mr. Halcro waits for the one he can hit out of the park. The new rig will be the last, I bet. And there's NO WAY anybody goes back from a Raven. Had to let that by as well... Hey, do you ever buy LPs with MUSIC on them? Z. |
Z
Define MUSIC?? Please don't tell me you are talking about Dianna Krall or alike??
I beleive I gave a hint of some new release pop/rock/alternative music I like.
BTW, I am going to have to go over to halcro's place to listen to the Raven/ Cobra since we both live in Sydney. |
All else being equal, a 12" inch arm should be better than a 9" arm (who can argue with more inches is better, guys?). The trouble is, there is no way to make all else equal. It is hardly a technological breakthrough to make an arm longer, but to do so, one must increase mass, particularly inertial or effective mass because the heavy cartridge will be hanging way out there on the end of a lever. Either that or a lot of mass has to be removed from elsewhere which compromises rigidity.
It is much easier today to make the compromise in favor of longer arms than in the past because of the available material. One can use carbon fiber impregnated material, cast magnesium, titanium, etc. But, it is not necessarily the case that any given arm can be scaled up to a longer length with ease; some designs might suffer too much in the other areas of concern, such as rigidity.
So, it is a matter of designers making their choice of tradeoffs. But, to say that one aspect of design, specifically length, is so important that a long arm is inherently superior, as someone mentioned that Roy Gregory has suggested, I don't buy. I will take a "short" Triplanar, Vector, etc., any day over the VPI arm. |
Hey guys.....don't underestimate the Rega Planar 3!
It MUST be wall-mounted and the Hadcock GH228 is a far better match than the Rega arms.
I simply don't gel with the sound of suspended decks.......do any of you see a similarity here - Caliburn, Criterion, Walker Proscenium, Rockport Sirius, Raven AC?
Have you heard the VPI HRX? |
Z,of course there is always something better!My point is....with the performance I currently get,I no longer "care" all that much about bettering what I am hearing,"in my room".Been to loads of trade shows,dealer showrooms,personal hobby set-ups at some reviewers' homes,and friends' homes.Yeah,there is a better mousetrap,but I'm close enough to not worry about getting hemorrhoids anymore!
As to the wood..."not like this grain pattern,and finishing"!!No way,jose!!...This pair was promised to a certain reviewer,for personal usage.Instead,Mike Hobson got them to me as a favor.Sometimes things work out.-:)
Best. |
BTW,Z or anyone curious(c'mon we all like to check out what some of us own/like)about the Ascent MK-II(which I modded twice),there is a review which can be found online(probably Avalon's site)written by Michael Gindi(he talked me into getting my pair).I never appreciated the validity of this review,until years of ownership.Especially "after" a friend had bought one of the superb Kharma designs,then morphing to the close to the Ascent, but still no cigar Magico Minis(yet I LOVE the Magicos,and could see getting a pair,if in a different room).These still fell short of the Ascent-II(if you like micro-detail.. oh boy)....The review is enthusiastically written,and quite entertaining....AND.. DEAD ACCURATE(took years to realize how accurate it truly was)!!
OK,I'll go back on topic-:)
|
Mr. D, Let me have some fun! My taste is all over the map. Good production = heavy rotation at the Z house. Mr Halcro, I believe Rega owned several price points in the past. They are a price point line. The prime reason I think Acoustic Solid is uncompetitive today is that they use Rega arms way too far up the line. Having a little trouble on the suspended issue, however. Another design where things have come a LONG way. A brand new Linn may sound similar to one from 1985 but I have a VYGER here, that for the money, has been a real eye opener. PLUS, it will accommodate a 12. The new MS tables are pretty wonderful as well. Regardless of price. I could go on... The HRX has little real competition at it's price point. IMO. You should see how many are used at CES. Plus it can use the 12. We are going to see more 12s fellas, it is better on paper, and getting easier to build with lower mass, shorter "moment" etc... can't wait! Z. |
Sir, Speakers truly are a subjective matter. As you can see, I just sold a pair of 20 year old speakers that I liked VERY much. There is old and then there is old; I had ADS speakers in my CAR (!) 20 years ago! The brand had, by this time become obsolete/uncompetitive in the home use market and for a few brief moments they were SOTA in car stereo. The last dying gasp, so to speak. No need to defend Avalon, they are certainly in the top 10? Any company that just survives 20 years in hi-fi is a testament to consumer acceptance. Happy listening! Z. |
Downunder, Are you one of the very few lucky listeners to have purchased the MJ Thriller reissue? I would recommend this to everyone but with production so limited, there can only be so many winners here! HA! I crack myself up sometimes... Hey, have you guys heard the one about the guy who found 18 old tonearms floating down the gutter? I try to bang my own head against the wall as few times as possible before realizing a headache is coming on. Seriously, Down, you wouldn't be willing to PDF me that hi-fi + article would ya? Z. |
All else being equal, a 12" inch arm should be better than a 9" arm (who can argue with more inches is better, guys?). The trouble is, there is no way to make all else equal. it is a matter of designers making their choice of tradeoffs. But, to say that one aspect of design, specifically length, is so important that a long arm is inherently superior, as someone mentioned that Roy Gregory has suggested, I don't buy. Larryi- you nailed it. All designs are compromises. Even "cost no object" designs. As Larry says, a longer arm is always heavier, all else being equal. We can change the arm tube material, or wall thickness,etc., , but then its not the same as the shorter arm. Zieman- your posts are entertaining, but you don't seem to be able to actually carefully read others. The whole disc/drum analogy is that, (with the exception of truly breakthrough technologies), implementation of any design is usually more important. And I would truly prefer to have a well executed mature design than a first gen more advanced design with flaws and/or low cost materials. Perhaps that's part of the reason why Guarinis and Strativerii (sp?) fetch "a bit" more than current Yamaha violins. Newer sometimes is better, but not always. Non-quantitative (= design execution) factors may be more important in artistic (=music) endeavors than quantitative (= SOTA design) factors. And of course with vinyl playback, there are so many interactive components involved, I think I fall in Raul's camp...Not on shorter is better (insert your own filthy leering comment here) but on, and I am paraphrasing, its the system. A tone arm/cart/TT/phonostage is a system that can be optimized, but I'm not so sure any one component can be optomized in isolation. My $0.02. YMMV, and if id does, then so be it. BTW, I would suggest canning the xenophobic remarks. This forum benefits from viewpoints from all cultures. |
Z, why would I want the Thriller re-issue?. I have the original!! nice bass sound on some of the tracks as well :-)
re hifi+ pdf. I'll search the article out and email.
So who was the guy who found 18 ton-arms floating down the river?? I am waiting for the punchline |
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Moerch arms which are probably the best candidates for testing 9" vs. 12". You can easily swap a Red 9" wand for a Red 12" wand, and the mass will be the same. The only difference is the length. Something obviously must be different if they have the same mass. Thinner wall thickness perhaps or less damping, I don't know. However, they are certainly made with the same design and materials as well as wiring and mechanical connections. Unfortunately, I have never made the comparison myself. All of my experience with the Moerch has been with the 12" Red wand, which sounds very good but I prefer the 9" Triplanar VII. That proves nothing of course.
Dave |
Downunder, I know you were away, you missed some entertaining stuff. I too have gennies, plus a Mastersound half speed or two. This new one is way good. I had to open another sealed original to check in with myself. There is info on the new one I have not heard before. Serious!
Swampy, how about we count how many Yamahas are out there vs. Strats. Or, as an option, how many 300 year old trees we could cut down and send to Yamaha? Can you say supply and demand? You sir, might want to read a little more. You might also want to go price a new SOTA piano some day (!) vs used. I picked disc vs drum knowing (silly me) there was nobody left on the planet clueless enough to actually prefer them. There is indeed a compromise to cost no object items; THE COST. Perhaps this is why you eschew them? There is a tremendous amount of genuine progress regarding material(s) one can use to make stuff going on, at this moment. News on the subject is easy to find, just look. "You could try it!" This research would, however, cut in on forum pontificating time. Another compromise?
Salectric picked just one example where you are also in the wrong camp with this "always" idea. The world was always flat too, until it wasn't. Was it flat UNTIL it was accidently circumnavigated? I wonder? I am glad we are gathering up all the non-technical here. I can do one on one, but I like to reach whole groups if at all possible. To be continued... Z. |
Two quick points(less than 1000 words) about the "better thing",and live music exposure..."my take only"(God how I like how that gets me off the hook).
Firstly,there can be a real benefit to hearing superior equipment,even if one is not planning to make a major purchase.Here,the "active" and "thinking" hobbyist has the oppurtunity to realize that "part" of the superior performance may be achieved with a bit more attention to some parameters our own system might be able to pull off.Like a bit more tweakery,or something as simple as better tubes,or those cute(and effective )HiFi Tuning fuses.Even attention to clean connections,or resonance control etc,etc, obviously can move us up the ladder.I've surprised myself many times(even if looking in a mirror-:)
You DO have to really know your set-up,and be a hands on guy!Also,make the attempt to hear alot of stuff.
The other point,where I am at odds with the "must hear real/live music regularly" camp is....You only have to know what live music sounds like!!...You will do far better,IMO,if you expose yourself to the "best systems"!
Here,the "obvious weaknesses" in our own set-ups more easily stands out,because we just KNOW that live music is not going to be easily reproduced in our lifetimes,with a stereo system!!To hear a "better system" though,and if you are a good and open minded listener(not a rationalizer, where you believe that everything you have is the best,anyway...I've got friends like "this"),AND willing to actually "think through" some of the perceptions of the "why" it sounds better,you stand a real chance to improve your current set-up...Whew,I think that was a run on sentence.
Hearing my friend Sid's suped up Air Tangent rig started me on this route,as I ultimately became acutely aware that the little annoyances that peeved me,in my own rig,was "groove" related."That" was the exact moment(a few years ago)when I rolled up my sleeves,on my old Graham 2.2 and learned it's hidden secrets.Quite a few,actually!Like this thing is a pain in the ass to voice perfectly,but it was so much fun "learning"!
Best. |
Not bad Sir, not bad. One must hear live music, however. One must. Playing, better yet. Wouldn't hurt to see how much anything reinforced just the tiniest bit is compressed, gated, distorted (deliberately) and otherwise messed with. Reproducing THAT sound is a goal for the room as well. Analog is in the tweaks, yes it is. We agree again. I can't quite afford to have the 'Stones play in my Great Room, so I do try to keep current and expose myself to a variety (but not that gawdawful stuff Down buys!) to better assist in my quest for the next best thing. (my run-on) Keeping ones head ABOVE the sand and out of ones you-know-what can be a tremendous advantage as well. "You can try it!" Z. |
Swampy, Rather than have you think I am a xe... big words... Since it is you who hasn't been reading, let me quote someone with more credibility than I. This gentleman speaks (spoke) to the crux of this thread: "He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave." William Drummond 1585-1649 Please read this, perhaps several times, and get back to me. Happy listening! Z. |
Rather than posting on a new thread, I thought I'd use this thread to ask anyone out there on their experience with a couple of 12" arms: Ikeda IT-407 and Ortofon 309D. And from reputation only, the Da Vinci Grandezza would provide much better performance than the Ikeda and the Ortofon (albeit at a cost)? Thank you very much. |
Selfdivider,I have heard the Davinci/Dynavector combo to excellent results.It appears to be a superb arm,and has a great reputation.The other two arms also have fine reputations,with the "right" cartridge,but I've not heard them.
From a point of interest standpoint(as it effects sound/music)....I have a dear friend who had a "magnificent" linear arm design,mounted on a high mass table/stand/air suspension....
It allowed for a "stunning",almost unmatched musical presentation,that I and others felt would not be equalled by "any" pivot(regardless of length).
Yet,my friend had owned this linear design for a number of years,and got tired of putting up with the "maintenance" issues,though minor.
So,he switched to a commonly known 12.5 arm,which did not match the air bearing/linear design,in that gorgeous relaxed,colorful presentation the set-up previously had!
Some friends(myself included) were quite dissapointed,because he had something "special" going on in "that" system.......Well-----
My friend must have had something going on,in the intuitive area of what he was looking for....because....
Two skilled,highly experienced and quite gifted fellow hobbyists(Richard Foster,and then Luis Cardona)showed up and "rolled up their sleeves" on my pal's table arm combo....
The results were "astounding"!!!
True high fidelity performance is now being had,from this 12.5 inch arm,and I had always thought it to not approach the performance of the linear design.....I sure was wrong!!
I and many others now feel it "almost" approaches the linear/air bearing" virtues....My pal is now ecstatic,and I must admit to being quite impressed with what a good "long" pivoting arm has to offer....
I can hear "music"!!....Go for it,if it makes you happy!!
Best |
That's tremendous! Good to know, Sirspeedy. I was expecting a comparison with 9" arms, but knowing that - w/ proper set-up - the 12" arms rival the performance of linear arms only further cements the likelihood of going w/ 12" arm. Again, I'm looking for good recommendations. Grandezza is probably my dream arm, as the price is way too steep for me. As mentioned, looking into Ortofon 309D, Ikeda IT-407, and EMT 997, as I just read Art Dudley's review of it... |
