Why the sudden popularity of 12 inch arms

Dear Z: The only ones that can ( for sure ) answer the thread question are the 12" tonearm manufacturers.

" Changing the topic...", please let Downunder that he decide about.

" Vintage gear ", well vintage and today audio items, if you read slowly you can see what MC cartridges I own and which tonearms and you can read several today ( including your MC cartridge and a the SME IV ) gear.
I have to tell you that some of those " vintage " gear ( cartridges/tonearms ) outperform your today analog gear, you could try it!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: I can't for sure answer your question. Many people here already give you some differents answers and all of them ( one way or the other ) could be right.

As you know I'm already in a tonearm design where I'm learning how complex is a tonearm design/build.

Cero tracking error is a desired goal in any tonearm design and in a pivoted one the theory tell us that a larger arm has lower tracking error, good but this tonearm atribute/subject alone means really very little about the performance tonearm, there are other factors/goals that could be more important to the whole tonearm performance: bearing, build material, effective mass, static/dynamic balance, isolation, internal wire, etc, etc.

My experiences with a lot of tonearms ( any size you want , including linear trackers. ) and with a lot of different cartridges tell me that that lower tracking error is not so critical ( because is very small anyway. ) like you can think about.

Now, that person that post here that through a long SME his cartridge sound performance level goes up means that that cartridge is better " served "/match with that tonearm but not because is a long type tonearm, this new tonearm is a different tonearm ( not only in its internal wire ) than the one he normally use it. So we can't say that a long type tonearms sounds better or have some kind of signature sound performance advantage because it does not have it perse.

Any well designed tonearm ( short or long ) can/could perform in a great way with the right cartridge.

The same for the people that thinks that the linear tracking tonearms are better because has cero tracking distortion and mimic how the LP was cut/recording. IMHO any one of these people that favor the linear tracking tonearms over the pivoted ones happen that any one of them never had/have the opportunity to hear a pivoted tonearm with its right matched cartridge, that's all. Yes I know that them already heard a lot of pivot tonearm but maybe never the right tonearm/cartridge combination!!!!!

All those theoretical advantages about tonearm tracking error in long tonearms and in linear traking ones are really too relative not only for what I already posted here but because all the recording LP process is not a perfect one and not a perfect one the cartridge/tonearm set up so that theoretical advantage are far from be a real advantage and more important that that theoretical advantage was/is the main cause of a better quality sound performance.

There are many subjects to discuss about and maybe in other time we can/could do it, it will be very learning for all of us.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Zieman: +++++ " Raul, Please read my response again. Slowly. I changed one component. The only proper way to evaluate a new addition. " +++++

IMHO I think that you missed what a tonearm involve in sound reproduction performance, you can read my post again or better yet read what Pryso posted about whom understand perfectly the subject:

+++++ " You may have changed only one component but you changed multiple parameters. Not only degrees of tracing error but also mass, stiffness, bearing design and quality, resonant frequency, and wire (considerations just off the top of my head) " +++++, build material, tonearm shape, counterweight position, etc, etc. and Z it does not matters with which cartridge.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: Well, it seems that the only one that changed from 12" to 9" was me and let me tell you that I change six long tonearms for the short ones because I can't find a real/true quality sound improvement in the long ones, maybe my music/sound appreciation and music/sound priorities are totally different from yours, that's all.

+++++ " Me I have had two 12 inch arms for a few years now so I can appreciate the better tracking at the end of a record compared to my 9inch naim ARO arm.... "+++++

IMHO this kind of performance/behavior is almost totally dependent on the tonearm/cartridge combination and not because one tonearm is longer than the other one. Here we have to remember that the Aro is a unipivot design that are not the best trackers at inner record tracks. For you can get to your conclusion you need a 9" Aro against a 12" Aro and even here the result is dependent with the cartridge match with either tonearm model.
I had that experience with the Audiocraft AC-3300/4400 and the Morch DP-6 where the only variable were the arm wands size and there is no differences that I can say: " it is because the arm wand size ".

As I already posted in a well tonearm design and well tonearm execution ( build ) the arm wand size can't make " the differences " for the better in a 12" against a 9-10" one, there are other factors that are more important and critical for the quality sound performance and I'm not saying that the size is not important it is but not at the level you or other reports about but because of its disadvantages against it " theoretical " advantage.

It is the same for ( IMHO ) the false assumption about the " perfect/mimic " cero tracking error advantage of the linear tracking tonearms, there are a lot of other factors that have a huge influence in the whole tonearm performance. Of course that some people like the linear tracking or long pivot tonearms but that does not means that are better ones and for the reviewers that support those tonearms designs we have to think/take in count that they have/must support to their advertisers and to the today products: specially the " new kid in the block ", very difficult to really trust on them: they are part of the audio business, I can and understand that.

IMHO you can/could obtain almost perfect/stellar/excelent quality sound reproduction from either tonearm design: long or short one, obviously with the right cartridge in either tonearm design and I can tell you more: either of these ( well cartridge matched ) pivoted tonearms outperforms ( overall ) a well matched linear tracking one.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Albert: In some ways we are talking and agree on the main subjects.
I only want to be precise that I'm not against the 12" tonearm ( I still have it and like it ), I'm only saying that it is not better than a 9-10" one only because is longer. Btw, nice to see that you have the pivoted SME one.

Design, execution and well matched cartridge ( obviously, like you posted : set up. ) is the " name of the game " in any tonearm.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: IMHO I think that looks like a misunderstood from your part.

In any of my posts I told that the 12" tonearm are not good tonearms or that are crappy ones, I don't know from where you have that on your mind!!!!!, this is like if I tell you that your CJ preamp is a crappy preamp!!!. Downunder till today I never bought/own/owned any " crappy tonearm ", now you are clear of them.

Maybe I have to add some explanation on why I'm using the 9" tonearms: after that its performance is a great one ( with no single advantage from the 12" ones. ) the overhang on all those tonearms that I own ( the short ones ) is exactly the same and this fact make me easy the interchange of cartridges between them and this single fact is of paramount and critical importance to achieve the best from any phono cartridge.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Shane: Ikeda, Fidelity Research, Moerch, Audiocraft, Micro seiki and SAEC. With the right ( matched ) cartridge all these tonearms ( long/short ) are really good!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: Thank you to give all of us the opportunity to talk and understand about:

+++++ " Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them " +++++

this is what I posted in other thread along with this:

+++++ " Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment " +++++, and I can add: cables. I'm still supporting those statements.

Now, you states: +++++ " In my experience, the greatest advances in analogue playback have occurred in just the last 10 years with arms, cartridges and turntables! " +++++,
that is totally contrary to my statements ( and there is nothing wrong with that. ).

We can take a look to the " today " analog gear design against some " old " designs, examples:

Triplanar design ( I already heard some samples of this tonearm even in my own system. ), IMHO this " today " design is a very old one that over the last years had/has some mods but the main design does not change.

SME, this " today " ( that I own ) very good design is a real " old " one. Do you know how much years has it?

Morch, this " today " ( that I own ) design " comes from an " old " Japanese Highphonic tonearm design.

Graham. this " today " very good tonearm comes from the Japanese Audiocraft " old " design. Btw, if I can remember the Phantom use a magnetic design for the antiskating, well: do you know that the Lustre GST-801 ( that I own ) not only has a magnetic antiskating but a magnetic VTF too? and the Lustre is a 30+ tonearm design!!!!!

VPI, comes from SAEC.

Brickmann, comes from the " old " Swiss Breuer.

and I can go on an on!!!!!!!!

IMHO only the Schroeder is a real new ( very good and clever bearing design ) tonearm design, oh yes the WT too.

New build materials in the " today " tonearms?, well IMHO many " old " tonearm designs were the ones that start with " new " materials that many of " today " ones are using it: ceramic? SAEC, Titanium?, Technics, Boron/Titanium? Technics, carbon fibre? MS, wood? Grace, etc, etc.

Do you know that no one ( other than Schroeder ) of today tonearms can even the Technics EPA-100MK2 so low bearing friction?, far from there and perhaps this is ( overall ) the tonearm to beat for any " today " tonearms. Do you know all the technology design ( at every design level ) that this Technics use?: bearing, build material, damping, etc, etc, IMHO no one " today " tonearm is near it and this Technics is a stellar performer.
BTW, do you already try/tested it with your today audio system?, please do it.

+++++ " To compound the problems I have with you, all your arms appear to have readily interchangeable headshells which presumably have plug-in electrical contacts? " +++++

well the Graham and Morch comes with the same " problem " design. Btw, there is no perfect audio item ( including tonearms ) and you have to choose your own trade-offs, almost always!!!

+++++ " Your most 'modern' turntable appears to be the Acoustic Solid from Germany. I have heard their Mambo and I'm sorry to tell you that this is not comparable to the Raven AC, Continuum Caliburn or Criterion nor the Walker Procsenium or Rockport Sirius. " +++++

I totally agree with you if you compare the Acoustic Signature/Acoustic Solid with out any kind of isolation on it.
I already posted somewhere that the Acoustic Signature comes with a heavy/terrible isolation problems but if you make your part on this audio game and find how isolate it then the AS is a top performer and a very clever ( bearing and power supply ) design.

I already heard ( in very good audio systems ) all the TTs you named but the Continuum, are very good ones and perhaps the best today examples but the " old " ones like Micro Seiki 5000/8000 or the SZ-1TVS+SZ-1M ( this one is a statement of TT by any today standard ), Nakamichi TX-1000 ( its center record computer technology is very far from any today TTs, well no one of today TT builders care about!!!!!!! This TX-1000 TT technology is UNIQUE all over the analog gear world!!!!!!!! ), do you already try it with your today audio system? or the Micro Seikis? well I did, Technics SP-10MK2 and MK3 ( I own it ), Final Paruthenon?, do you know it? a 1984 design: stellar performer!!!! , Yamaha GT-200X, Denon DP-100, etc, etc
All these " old " designs compete and could beat many of the today ones including yours.

Cartridges?, well other of what you can read here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&read&3&4&

I can tell you that many " old " MC cartridges not only even the best today cartridges but some can/could beat them.
Examples: Goldbug MS Brier, Victor MC L-1000, Sao Win SMC 10, Audio technica AT1000, FR MC-702, Ortofon MC 2000, etc, etc.
How many of these cartridges do you already heard in your today system? how many of the ones that I named in the MM thread?
Btw, the last one today cartridge that I tested in my system was the Air Tight PC-1.

+++++ " Your claim that the old technology of arms is as good as, if not better than the new, is demonstrably false just as your beliefs that the older cartridges (both MM and MC)are legitimately comparable to the newer LOMCs. " +++++

I don't think so because I can prove it, what I think ( IMHO ) is that you can't prove what you posted!!!!!

+++++ " seems to me to indicate that the sound you are able to extract from the vinyl is decidedly second rate. " +++++

well you can't prove this either but if you take that long flight to America and hear it you will be just shocked!! and could have a very nice " new " music/sound experience.

Sirspeedy posted:
+++++ " One just has to look at the better(quite a few)cartridges,and with a good table(there are many),and tonearm(quite a few "decent" choices,too)the serious vinyl hobbyist/collector can have a field-day at his/her local used record store!!!
Too much fun for one lifetime!!! " +++++

and I agree with him but that statement does not means that the quality sound reproduction is better than with those " very old " analog designs ( tonearms/cartridges/TTs ).

Dear Halcro, like some Agoner told me: " High end is who you are, not what you buy ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: +++++ " ...it's not telling us anything! " +++++

well, IMHO I think that today are " different " TT/tonearm/cartridge gear but unfortunately those "different " does not give us a bettter quality performance.

Seriously, I would like to travel to your lovely country but I can't do it.

The Agoner' quote: maybe has several interpretations, what I understand is that the know-how and audio/music experiences can/could be more important that buy high price ( new kid on the block ) audio items with out that know-how.
Of course that if you have an in deep know-how and you are wealthy then things could happen more easy and faster ( I'm talking about achieving audio system stellar performance. )

Dear Halcro, Sirspeedy put that subject in the right perspective.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Shane: What tonearm are looking at?, is it for one of your current cartridges or a new one? or your question is only curiosity.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Onlwy61: +++++ " On topic -- I'm in the camp that the best sound is achieved by the implementation of a technology rather than being specific to any given technology. And at the user end, exacting setup, and at least at the high end, system matching can easily trump "better technology". " +++++

Right on target: know-how!, well this is one way/road.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Shane: I can't comment ( for sure ) the why's of those reviewers because first than all its music/sound priorities are different for mines or even yours and second because almost all them are commercial biased and they have " to help " to that manufacturers grow-up.

The Ikeda ( crappy like you named. Obviously your know-how about is none. ) ) and Audiocraft are current tonearms. Shane with all respect to the designer I could say that your VPI is a crappy item against any of those tonearms, how can you name those tonearms in that way? do you already tested/try it two or three of them in your today system? how do you know which are its performance level?, IMHO you are talking only because you " want " but not because you are experienced on it or because you have personal facts where you can prove it and this is not only unfair but almost dis-honest.

Shane, you have to read again my post because I'm not against the 12" tonearms I'm only saying that the 12" tonearms are not better ones than the 9-10" only because are longer, that's all.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Doug: Nice to talk with you again.

+++++ " Raul does not much notice or care about two things that happen to matter a great deal to Paul and me: very low level detail.... " +++++

well I did/do ( remember that I posted some where that Paul and you are on the " edge " for VTA/Azymuth changes in every single record?..... ) but certainly my music/sound reproduction priorities are a little different from yours and this fact has nothing wrong, every one of us have different priorities in some audio areas.

+++++ " Of course the materials and manufacturing advances......" +++++

dear Doug how I wish that you could have on hand a SAEC 506 or EPA-100MK2 and Audicraft AC3300 or any of those " very old " tonearms because in that way you could confirm that its build/material quality are second to none ( for say the least ) and up to any " today " tonearm ( but the Cobra that I don't have experience on it ), long or short.

Read what Thomasheisig posted or what you posted ( you are talking of trade-offs. ) or what Sirspeedy or Pryso or Nsgarch or Albert or Onhwy or Bobp posted, there is a common subject on it: real audio/music know-how, every one are talking and coincide ( one way or the other ) in the same main factors/subjects. We all have more coincidences about that differences and that fact say something.

Here are some people emails that I receive or posted in Agon about:

+++++ " BTW have you ever tried the Sony arms? I have just acquired a OUA-1600L and it blew me away on my Victor TT-101:- dynamic, musical, controlled and competitive with my Triplanar / Ikeda / SME V / 801 and possibly superior. I like the removable headshell and right now with a NOS Sony XL-55 MC it rocks! " +++++

+++++ " Experience, like fifty years of it in the hi end, confirms there is no collation between price and better sound. A last point, set up and the arm tend to rule. I've heard $3K cartridges improperly set up by 'experts' and still the owner raved how better it sounded," +++++

+++++ " Raul... the turntable is by far the best I've had in my system. The background is very quiet/black. its made me appreciate my cartride and phono stage more... "+++++ this comes from a TT Micro Seiki owner.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: +++++ " ...until I inserted something better. " +++++

I totally agree with you till here.

+++++ " And that something better was inevitably NEWER. " +++++

IMHO I think that that something better could be newer or not so newer, the subject is: BETTER. Because like you posted: " That doesn't of course mean that EVERYTHING newer is better. " +++++

Halcro I think that you an me are talking almost on the same.

Do you think that I'm using " old " tonearms because I like to use " old " ones, NO I'm using it because till today I don't find nothing better ( New/newer or " old " ).: that's all, I already try it: Morch, SME, Triplanar, VPI, Graham, etc, etc and overall I prefer what I use today.

Now, from my cartridges, " new ones ": Allaerts Finish Gold, KRSP, Colibri, XV-1, 90X, etc, etc. I like it but my " old " ones like: Goldbug, Victor, technics, ortofon, etc etc, like me too and my new and old MM ones are part of that " I like it ".

I like you, Sirspeedy and many others own a very old speakers ( heavy tweaked ) that are not the best out there but that are very near to that best one.

I know and agree that is almost impossible to have at home only cutting edge audio items but I know people that have it and its quality whole system performance is poor, in the other way I know people with not " only cutting edge " systems that its quality system performance is really good.
Like I already posted the ideal is the combination of in deep know-how with no money barrier. But if know-how has no substitute money has it!!!

IMHO know-how has no substitute, you can't buy your own ( self ) know-how, you have to learn and obtain through the everyday long time own experiences and from other experiences too. IMHO the first experience/know-how to obtain a decent or high quality music/sound reproduction on our own systems is the in deep experience on live music/live events, preferably with acoustic music.

Some of my audio friends are people with very low music experience and when you hear/heard their systems you know that, no one of those systems sounds really good far from there because they don't have " music appreciation " that you and me have.

Many people out there and in forums like Agon speaks about quality music/sound reproduction at very " high level " ( at least is what they think. ) and when you ask them: how many hours of live music do you hear every week ( well no. ), every month? they have not and answer but all of them are " experts " and they believe it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.