I CAN agree with Halcro,in that IMO the last few years has brought a "major" improvement in vinyl reproduction!!!
One just has to look at the better(quite a few)cartridges,and with a good table(there are many),and tonearm(quite a few "decent" choices,too)the serious vinyl hobbyist/collector can have a field-day at his/her local used record store!!!
Too much fun for one lifetime!!! |
BTW,one doesn't have to own the absolute "latest/best measuring/highest tech level" stuff to get "fabulous" sound!
I've heard many(domestic settings)systems that had somewhat retro equipment which just "HAD IT",in a very musical way!!The owner/hobbyists knew what they wanted to accomplish,and modded,and voiced these systems to a stunning level of enjoyment.There are MANY systems of this nature that actually embarrass some of the newer,highly regarded set-ups being marketed today.
Of course with a good amount of understanding,and alot of cash you will still do extremely well with todays TOP stuff,but it does not negate the legitimacy of MANY classic designs.....Think "Marantz 10B",as an example.
Also,if one reads Raul's equip listing,and his steps to eek out the best from his set-up,I'd bet it is darn good sounding!..Just some thoughts.
Best |
I don't want to give the "suspicious" poster the impression that I am downplaying the "top" stuff of today.Also,I basically can't state that the superb retro set-ups I've heard are comparable,in all "meaningful" areas to such componentry.
What I am saying(from being lucky enough to hear a ton of differing system approaches)is that we(myself included)can easily get caught up in the "gadgetry race".Sometimes over-thinking/analyzing the mechanical aspects of "our" hobby can be a detriment(not always),and this can easily become an expensive game of musical chairs.
I assume(hopefully)that the majority of us got into the hobby for the love of the "music" firstly!I did.
Once one gets into this hobby,deeply,it is very easy to get too into the "gizmotic"(made that word up)aspects of why our stuff sounds so good.We like the reinforcement of industry folks,like good reviews,and good word of mouth to make us feel better about what we have invested in.Also,it is very cool to get good feedback from other owners,and see posts of how they,like us,love some familiar products.
There is a large contingent of music lovers/lp collectors that think that the equipment aspect of the hobby is there ONLY to serve the music.No big stretch there,and almost everyone feels similarly....BUT,these guys(many of which I've met over the years at The Princeton Record Exchange)"really get off" only on the music.The equipment is "nice" to them,but to hear them "go off" on a particular LP "find",and the performance held within the grooves,really has made me feel "sort-of" too materialistic.Liking the "hard work" I've put in, and sonic attributes of my mechanical devices,used to play "music",maybe a bit too much!
I am not eloquent enough to put across the point I am trying to make!
I think that if you have spent alot of time "collecting" and putting together a GREAT music collection(dwarfing the legitimate viability of the materialistic aspect of the hobby)it is far easier to become enraptured with the way music affects us.
There REALLY IS A TON of "not the latest",but "SO" enjoyable systems out there,that it is not hard to become adjusted to different sonic approaches taken by some, in this hobby!
It's nice to "let up" a little on our inner "critical listener",sometimes....When things sound "right"!!
Some time ago,while collecting at Princeton,I ran into this exchange student,from Korea.WHAT A LOVELY GUY!!!
A real music lover/lp collector.He got SO enthusiastic about the hobby(he liked equipment too,but could not afford the latest)during our discussion,that he asked me if I wanted to give a listen to some of his LP "finds" that he had made,during the ONE semester he would be in this country.He was like a little kid,showing me his new toys.Such enjoyable enthusiasm.Instant commradery!
So,I decided it would be worth while to get another "take" on how someone else,from another culture approached the hobby,while in my community.He loved RCA,Mercury,Decca classical stuff,like me.
I was bowled over by this simple setup!!!Not a large room.Not very pricey stuff.Just "truly" wonderfully reproduced "music".He surely knew what he was doing!!
I had a great time...The fellow lost hid grant,soon afterwards and went back to Korea,but I know a LOAD of good LP's went with him!I've not heard from him since,but always show my wife,and daughter the little yellow house he lived in,when we pass by.
Good equipment could be had,quite easily.Getting those priceless LP's would be alot harder!
Sorry for my rant!
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Zieman,I don't disagree with you at all!!I love SOTA stuff....AND,I hear the difference,like you claim you do!!Surprisingly(maybe to some,like you)I believe that what I have put together in my own dedicated two channel room is close enough to not have to worry about the nuts and bolts for at least "three months"!OK?
BTW,my best audio buddies have non to shabby stuff,ranging from BIG Pipe Dreams,Magico Minis,Big Infinity four tower speakers,CJ ART,etc....I hear the difference,and our little get-togethers OFTEN spill blood,from frequent critical observations......I've made the investment myself,but we STILL split hairs too much.....TOO OFTEN!!....I say,don't stop...but...take a step back,"sometimes"!Well,maybe not you!!OK?
I guess you did not like my Andy Rooney routine-:)
Sorry. |
Z,guess I'm getting a bit too uptight-:)
Trust me,I am fanatical about "fine" equipment,and probably love the stuff too much("wife not happy"-:).I could have put both kids through college for what I've spend on the hardware alone!Don't get me started on the software!!
Thanks for the reinforcement of my point,but though we mutually agree,sometimes I like to view things from different perspectives,sometimes.Kinda keeps me grounded!!
Basically I'm stating that one should not be so quick to be an audio snob(nobody in particular),due to the ownership,and exposure to the best componentry around,and don't be so quick to blow off another person's product choices!!Even if old!!One can be really surprised with the ingenuity of musicophiles/hobbyists!!There is very little I,personally, have not heard,and what I am currently listening to will definitely keep me in the running for a long time.Yet....
The ONLY reason for my dumb rant,is that SO often I've been exposed to less costly,or somewhat older(but fine) gear,in very well thought out set-ups.Seriously well thought out and carefully matched!Yet,not close to new,but amazing for it's own values.Charles King,the Stelavox tape player re-mod specialist( a genious) demonstrated this to me,with a "low brow,but face on the floor good" little set-up,that blew away anything I had heard for the previous six months.I was exposed to the BIG NOLA four tower system "two months prior",and with the ASR stuff,in "the" room,to "do" that particular system,and liked it,but no lovefest,after realizing the Charles King set-up just "had magic"!.Hey,it's just my ever changing taste!
I may have definitive critical views,when in "my moods",but after being at this hobby as long as me,exposure to unique/different takes on how some folks like their music reproduced is very enlightening!
I am a very open minded listener,and won't pigeonhole myself into believing the latest has to be the best.Too often it isn't!Though my pal's new Magico Mini/Rowland/Audio Research/Phantom/Orpheus set-up sounds amazing!!...Well,it just does!!
It takes a long time to "voice out" a really good system,and having new stuff(probably half of what I own is quite new,and too expensive,btw)is not the road's end.
Of course next week,someone will probably put out a thread which will more than likely ignite the other "snobby" side of me.I'll embarrass myself,by going on about how my exposure,or ownership,of some new "figamajig" is the "only way to go",and that the "someone" does not have it maxxed out!
That's one reason why all my posts(from day one)should not be taken too seriously.Just hobbyspeak!
Best.
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Z,I'm not old enough to have a grandson....I lied, I am but have none!!...As to anything influencing a newbee,who cares?It's not the job of a hobby/discussion forum to create market interest,IMO!
Yet,I know "we do" agree on balance.You and I..BUT..I don't think any of my posts are going to influence anyone that I am anything other than a "sometimes/often-times" bloviator.One that has an enthusiastic approach to a fun hobby.Someone that likes to "rap audio".Something I was accused of in my college days!While helping to take over my dorm,protesting the Vietnam war.Even though I was, "in actuality", just trying to pick up this "way hot" militant chick,who blew me off anyway!!
Best. |
Z(love that name-tag,btw),definitely agree about the willingness to listen "thing"!!
Many potential "new" hobbyists have no clue as to just how "supremely special" a superb high res system can be.
I had a few of my son's med school friend's hear my vinyl recently.They knew "Andrew's" dad was "into" music.I always told my son not to advertise my system/hobby,but this was one situation where this group was very curious about how the "old stuff"(LP's) sounded.They knew I had something "special" behind my "locked" door,to the music room.
One proclaimed that he had heard vinyl was "interesting",but had never heard a record.The rest of the group basically were curious,but not expecting much from the "old stuff".....Actually,when they viewed the walls "lined" with LP's there was an interesting sound of awe, seeing all that music,shelved to the max!
Heh,heh....here was my "shot"!!!I knew I had to open up the listening session with a bang,so I chose an old direct disc of "superb" percussion music."MUSIC",not percussive sound effects!!!Like works by Charles Wourinen,George Crumb,Ernst Toch.
Chose the prgm material carefully(for these fairly opinionated fellows).
Basically,after about two hours,they were "amazed" at what can be accomplished with a simple(not really),old,two channel system,using "almost gone" technology.There was a complete sense of "I didn't realize how great those old records could be",universally proclaimed by each guy.
I'm frequently asked to "play it again",whenever one of them comes over....Felt good!!Really good!!
Sorry,as I know I'm not being thread specific,and DO get carried away alot.Will stay on subject more often.
Best.
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BTW,"Z",I happen to like the person you seem to be critical of.I like his enthusiasm,and his well meant intentions!!Always have!!
Like everyone shoud do with my comments(I must come off as hot air,often)some things should be taken with a grain of salt.So,I like when we get ALOT of varying opinions.I've gotten myself into alot of trouble with my own poor interjection of some of own opinions.I "think" I've learned from "posting" experience,over time.The opinions I disagree with I throw out,and the other ones I attempt to learn from.
Don't take this as a wrist slap,'cause you are a very interesting poster.
Best. |
Z,of course there is always something better!My point is....with the performance I currently get,I no longer "care" all that much about bettering what I am hearing,"in my room".Been to loads of trade shows,dealer showrooms,personal hobby set-ups at some reviewers' homes,and friends' homes.Yeah,there is a better mousetrap,but I'm close enough to not worry about getting hemorrhoids anymore!
As to the wood..."not like this grain pattern,and finishing"!!No way,jose!!...This pair was promised to a certain reviewer,for personal usage.Instead,Mike Hobson got them to me as a favor.Sometimes things work out.-:)
Best. |
Z,the "rheto" thing?I knew it!Give me a little more observational credit if you can.I'm not SO old to be "that" slow minded!! -:)
BTW,the "SIR" thing,as you apply it to me,is cute...BUT it would be more accurately used on Albert Porter.That fellow is "real" Royalty!!Classy too!
Best.
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Z,I must admit,though you are going to get "mucho" criticism,on these threads(probably)you are WAY more entertaining than anything on cable,these days!! |
Automobile "talk" bores me!!..Maybe Tennis talk,or how great the Giants were,beating the invincible Patriots.
The 12 inch subject,though valid,does not "get me going" all that much,mainly because there are some fabulous "shorties" that are absolutely amazing(like my new Phantom).Also,I respect Frank Schroder's opinions here,and he is not wild about the 12 length.
To me,from my own experience,the linear design is "absolutely" superior to any other alternative I've heard,and by a "long shot"!The only problem is the somewhat pain in tush pump/compressor,and periodic maintenance(not really a big deal,if you consider the performance,which is inarguably better,and clearly superior...PERIOD!).
If we want to look at Roy Gregory( a good writer,but has his own set of listening biases,like all of us),the recent interesting report in the last Hi Fi Plus,had a low priced(relatively)linear design "easily" competitive with some BIG TIME pivots.Some really amazing designs,AND the cheapo linear one,seemed to steal the show,from his description!...HMMMM?
Just some thoughts. |
OK,on topic...When my friend Sid,moved from the "linear" Air Tangent(modded pump)design to the VPI 12.5,and then 12.6 it was clearly obvious(from a few listsners familiar with "that" set-up)that there was a definits loss of believeability/beauty in the Lp's being played.
Like everyone else,investing time and money in a passionate hobby,we still had to walk on eggshells in mentioning this(though when the shoe was on the other foot,El-Sid pulls NO punches...but he's way too loveable to get mad at).
This situation diminished once Richard Foster got his hands on the 12.6(soon to become the 12.7).YET,the Air Tangent was/is still the more "convincing" arm,in that set-up,and by a good margin,IMO!!...From what I am being told,by my local friends,this new 12.7 "could" be the answer(I know Downunder loves his,btw).
So(just some of my hobbyspeak)two weeks ago,I went to hear the newly set-up 12.6,in Sid's set-up,which absolutely sounded better than "it" had ever.BUT...we played alot of familiar material that I distinctly remember being done with the Maxi pump(new/modded pump-compressor) Air Tangent.NOT the standard Air Tangent model which was not close in performance to the current one,we were hearing.
One particular LP played was an Ida Haendl's EMI recording,where the second side contains some magical "subtle" orchestral music.Here,the subtle musical threads REALLY stand out,and with absolutely goegeous timbrel balance.It was HERE that although the 12.6 was quite good(and Sid was very happy),but because of how much I had envied the Air Tangent,on this kind of music,it was clear as a bell,to me,that the 12.6 was still not close.ONLY in the "bloomy,airy,harmonic weightyness" area where a fabulous linear design has NO peers!..If you have NOT heard one,and you regularly follow these threads,do yourself a favor and go hear a good set-up with a good linear arm.Take your own LP's!!...This is not hard,as tables like the Walker(fabulous)can be auditioned AND it will change the way some approach LP "listening perceptions"! Worth the effort!!
From Sid,we went to my friend ED,who has the "shorty" Phantom!Similar music,but not really a big "perceptive" difference from how the long arm "did" music compared to the short arm.
I know this is NOT a valid A/B "thing",but I know both these systems SO well,and finally have enough experience to recognize things relating to the "groove" that it is not a stretch to make the claim.
The 12 inch "thing" seems nice,but the finest short arms are simply too good,to even worry about a bit more length,IMO!
Yet,the linear route is a whole different story.
Now,I've got to hear the 12.7,which just could change my "opinion".
Best |
BTW,sorry!I meant the linear/"air bearing" designs! |
My son is two years out of med school and has promised to buy me the system of my dreams some day...Z!!With his med school debt,I'm not counting on it,and would gladly settle for a nice Barollo.-:)
My Siemens 6922's in phonostage)are as old as Methusala,but have not been matched.I've tried "everything" else!!
Like Halcro(almost),my Avalon Ascent MK-II speakers are seventeen years old(modded,and with the addition of a REL Stentor II sub,coming in at 24 hz),maintained to literally a museum standard,and are GORGEOUS to both hear,and behold(irridescent olive wood,unattainable today),and 460 lbs with two external 55 lb each crossovers!!!I have a penchant for "accurate" quality speakers,MUCH more-so than analog,even.Yet,these speakers(designed by Charles Hansen of Ayre)simply "kill" any new choices that would appeal to "me".Anyone having sold these off,for the newer replacements definitely have NOT heard what they are capable of,with todays better electronics...I've tried to find better,for me,but so far no-go!!Even my friend's Magico beauties fall short,in air,and what a true sculptured stage is!And I love those Minis!
The rest of my stuff is just about new,or mega modded,but this business of new as better I take with agrain of salt,when figured into a "total system package"!For my tastes.
Start the stone throwing... |
BTW,Z or anyone curious(c'mon we all like to check out what some of us own/like)about the Ascent MK-II(which I modded twice),there is a review which can be found online(probably Avalon's site)written by Michael Gindi(he talked me into getting my pair).I never appreciated the validity of this review,until years of ownership.Especially "after" a friend had bought one of the superb Kharma designs,then morphing to the close to the Ascent, but still no cigar Magico Minis(yet I LOVE the Magicos,and could see getting a pair,if in a different room).These still fell short of the Ascent-II(if you like micro-detail.. oh boy)....The review is enthusiastically written,and quite entertaining....AND.. DEAD ACCURATE(took years to realize how accurate it truly was)!!
OK,I'll go back on topic-:)
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Two quick points(less than 1000 words) about the "better thing",and live music exposure..."my take only"(God how I like how that gets me off the hook).
Firstly,there can be a real benefit to hearing superior equipment,even if one is not planning to make a major purchase.Here,the "active" and "thinking" hobbyist has the oppurtunity to realize that "part" of the superior performance may be achieved with a bit more attention to some parameters our own system might be able to pull off.Like a bit more tweakery,or something as simple as better tubes,or those cute(and effective )HiFi Tuning fuses.Even attention to clean connections,or resonance control etc,etc, obviously can move us up the ladder.I've surprised myself many times(even if looking in a mirror-:)
You DO have to really know your set-up,and be a hands on guy!Also,make the attempt to hear alot of stuff.
The other point,where I am at odds with the "must hear real/live music regularly" camp is....You only have to know what live music sounds like!!...You will do far better,IMO,if you expose yourself to the "best systems"!
Here,the "obvious weaknesses" in our own set-ups more easily stands out,because we just KNOW that live music is not going to be easily reproduced in our lifetimes,with a stereo system!!To hear a "better system" though,and if you are a good and open minded listener(not a rationalizer, where you believe that everything you have is the best,anyway...I've got friends like "this"),AND willing to actually "think through" some of the perceptions of the "why" it sounds better,you stand a real chance to improve your current set-up...Whew,I think that was a run on sentence.
Hearing my friend Sid's suped up Air Tangent rig started me on this route,as I ultimately became acutely aware that the little annoyances that peeved me,in my own rig,was "groove" related."That" was the exact moment(a few years ago)when I rolled up my sleeves,on my old Graham 2.2 and learned it's hidden secrets.Quite a few,actually!Like this thing is a pain in the ass to voice perfectly,but it was so much fun "learning"!
Best. |
Selfdivider,I have heard the Davinci/Dynavector combo to excellent results.It appears to be a superb arm,and has a great reputation.The other two arms also have fine reputations,with the "right" cartridge,but I've not heard them.
From a point of interest standpoint(as it effects sound/music)....I have a dear friend who had a "magnificent" linear arm design,mounted on a high mass table/stand/air suspension....
It allowed for a "stunning",almost unmatched musical presentation,that I and others felt would not be equalled by "any" pivot(regardless of length).
Yet,my friend had owned this linear design for a number of years,and got tired of putting up with the "maintenance" issues,though minor.
So,he switched to a commonly known 12.5 arm,which did not match the air bearing/linear design,in that gorgeous relaxed,colorful presentation the set-up previously had!
Some friends(myself included) were quite dissapointed,because he had something "special" going on in "that" system.......Well-----
My friend must have had something going on,in the intuitive area of what he was looking for....because....
Two skilled,highly experienced and quite gifted fellow hobbyists(Richard Foster,and then Luis Cardona)showed up and "rolled up their sleeves" on my pal's table arm combo....
The results were "astounding"!!!
True high fidelity performance is now being had,from this 12.5 inch arm,and I had always thought it to not approach the performance of the linear design.....I sure was wrong!!
I and many others now feel it "almost" approaches the linear/air bearing" virtues....My pal is now ecstatic,and I must admit to being quite impressed with what a good "long" pivoting arm has to offer....
I can hear "music"!!....Go for it,if it makes you happy!!
Best |
