Just received the following interesting commentary from a friend:
Because of gray market and other problems, Accuphase is now disabling the transformer switches that made changing voltages for Japanese and USA use a simple process. So from now on, USA dist. products CAN NOT be used in Japan/Asia and visa versa. Some Accuphase dealers are quite unhappy about this move. Additionally, the DP-75v is out of production for only one reason; Accuphase is unable to obtain Sony CD transports as they're no longer made. Sony currently manufactures only DVD/SACD transports for OEM and self-sourced products.
Congrat's Dan! I'd sure like to hear your new A50V - I've read nothing but rave commentary about that amp! |
Bob,
Acutually this was a leading question. I am the proud owner of a new A-50V which was purchased at an authorized dealer and I got a nice discount (in my opinion). However I am highly suspect of statements like those of Glassboy (no offence intended). If there exists such dealers in Japan, I would think Accuphase would cut them off very quickly for shipping to US markets. Just my 0.02 cents.
- Dan |
Dan 2112 if you're interested in Accuphase product but are seeking a nice discount, you don't have to buy gray goods to get a good deal. You can easily get around 20% off list price from two diffrent authorized US dealers: Audio Unlimited in Denver CO 303-691-3407, or Analog Shop in Victor NY 716-742-2860 |
I bought a minimally used U.S. Accuphase DP-85 Cd player and it is superb. It blew away my Sony SCD-1 and Dodson DAC. Not even close in resolution , imaging, soundstaging and musicality. I bought a very good vinyl rig and had given up on CD's. They are now listenable.The new multichannel Indigo Girls SACD, played in 2 channel is excellent. I wouldn't pay list on the units for all the reasons stated above, but I love mine.
David Shapiro |
Glassboy,
Could you point me to a web site that sells Accuphase in Japan that will ship the US. Could you also elaborate on the conversion process.
- Dan |
Thanks for alll the great advice, and the interesting posts. |
Badwisdom... My take on the Accuphase problem was USD/JPY and direction-specific. Japanese buyers of US or European products should actually benefit from the forex forward (though not from volatility, company risk, etc). For trade between the UK/US/Europe, forex forwards change a lot less(which means savings of 15+% vs case of Japan exports to US) and forex volatility is a lot lower historically (meaning the buffer one needs to take is lower). While I laud makers which make efforts to keep prices similar across markets, I might have chosen slightly different words to your question, replacing "practically identical COSTS" with "practically identical PRICES".
Intrigued, and having heard of the Chord DAC 64 and the big amps, I did a quick search. Indeed, it seems as if the price of the SPM-5000 amp, anywhere you go is going to run you the equivalent of $22-23k retail in many places (I checked France, Sweden, UK, US, Germany), and the Chord64 will cost a mite over $3k. I note however that continental European (and perhaps UK) prices include V.A.T. while the US price does not, suggesting that if selling at MSRP, US' dealers' net prices are probably 15+% higher.
I have noticed that UK makers (B&W, B&S' Meridian brand, Linn, E.A.R., etc) are better than others at keeping prices similar across markets (and perhaps as a result, small UK makers sell significantly better in Japan than do small US makers). I do not know if such uniformity is due to manufacturers keeping distributors in line with an iron hand or if the makers simply keep MSRP high and let "street prices" vary across markets [e.g. while B&W speakers have a higher USD-equivalent MSRP in Japan than in the US or Europe, the "street price" is competitive with and in some cases actually lower here than in Europe].
I would tend to think that for certain makers there is a bit of both; but I would also posit that if volumes are not high, then margins are (few build businesses to sell a low volume, low margin product), leaving ample room in many cases for room to manipulate MSRP across cost structures. |
Nice T Bone. But how do you explain that some manufacturers (ie Chord) manage to sell products at practically identical costs all over the globe ???
Cheers |
Disclaimer: I am not in the distribution business (I do finance) and have no relationship of any kind to any importer/exporter, dealership, or audio equipment maker other than the fact that I have bought used audio equipment in the past from a dealer. I post (which could get long) because I think distributors/importers may be getting a raw deal in this thread. Those in the know, please let me know where I go wrong…
Imagine you are a distributor. You sign an agreement to advertise, promote, distribute, and service the little-known products of a privately-held (my impression has been that Accuphase Labs is closely held), foreign company in a low-volume and somewhat fickle niche market (high end audio). You may have little legal recourse if something goes wrong and even if legal recourse were available, many foreign companies (future clients?) might view you as a less than desirable business partner if you sued a former client.
For pricing, you could simply change the dollar price of the product whenever the forex rate moved but one might risk losing both dealers and end-customers. So you figure it’s in your and your dealers’ best interest to guarantee the same USD price for the foreign-sourced piece of equipment for the expected life of the product (3yrs for the sake of argument), within a 20% forex band. That means taking into account the forward forex rate and the fact that to some extent you're buying and selling forex options around the center of that band. Oversimplifying the financial math, let's assume you just use the 3yr forex forward and tack on a 10-15% "forex-move buffer cost" and you only change the price on your dealers in the future if there is a 20+% move in the exchange rate. In the case of USD/JPY it means you would have to charge 25-30% more (than the simple cost price converted into USD at the spot rate) just to cover your forex/finance cost because of the interest rate differential and average forex volatility. A long product life, higher foreign exchange volatility, or higher hedging costs mean a bigger front end “cost.”
You also have to take into account the costs the maker would bear in the home country – i.e. a) advertising costs, b) pre-dealer inventory costs, c) physical distribution in the US, and d) the not insignificant cost of servicing the warranty (stocking replacement parts, maintaining a skilled technical/repair/support staff – probably much higher expected cost per unit than in the home country). None of the above protects you, the distributor, against the possibility the foreign manufacturer will decide to raise their local currency price to you (for whatever reason – lower volume; higher costs for labor, parts, social security, insurance, shipping; regulatory or industry standard changes; low volume; whim; etc.). It does not protect you against significant foreign exchange market movements, capital controls, manufacturer bankruptcy, etc. Nor does it protect you against your own success. Should you see great success selling the product and creating a long-term viable brand presence, you may find the foreign manufacturer deciding to do their own distribution at the end of your X-year agreement, leaving you with fond memories but not much else. What is all that worth?
The mark-up on Accuphase from home market to the US may be high but it is no higher than on the products of most small high-end US manufacturers selling in Japan. Most Japan retail prices for non-major brands (for “major” brands think Krell, ML, McIntosh; for “non-major”, think almost everyone else) are twice the US retail price (or higher), despite the fact that the above-mentioned forward rate works for the benefit of Japanese buyers the way it could work to the detriment of US buyers of Japanese equipment.
Glassboy and others… If a reliable seller offered me a new, Japanese spec DP-75V in the U.S. for $2500, I would jump on it. MSRP for a DP-75V in Japan (I live in Japan) is and has been JPY 650,000 since it came out. While this means current "retail" is the equivalent of US$5120 (as of Friday's f/x rates), 18 months ago it was more like $6000+. Accuphase seems to have one of the lowest street price vs. MSRP "discounts" of any Japanese manufacturer (generally 10-14% at the ‘low’ end of the product range, a few percent more at the higher end, and one can tack on an additional 3-5% discount for the cheapest internet-only dealers). Used and in decent condition, they can very occasionally be found for JPY 350-400k though used Accuphase CDPs of so recent a vintage are reasonably rare (there are, however, a bunch of DP-75s and DP-65s for sale these days because of the DP-75V and the DP-85). |
I just can't believe that multichannel SACD is the next best thing. How studios could be pursuaded to invest into yet another SACD 'gimick' after the abysmal two years two channel SACD has had is beyond me. I strongly believe that unless two channel SACD suddenly takes off in a big way or shows massive improvement, there will be no multi channel SACD investment, and rightly so. The only saving grace for multi channel imho is DVDA.
Cheers |
I agree with the concern for gray market products for any gear but remember, this is used gear. Not all manufacturers handle repairs for the own legitimate US gear that smoothly once the warranty period has expired. As for the slow responses, Accuphase gear is expensive and its distribution and exposure is rather limited here in the US. But it is great sounding stuff, incredibly well made and engineered (as far as I can tell from published technical reports that show outstanding test results). As a seller of equipment on Agon, I find that patience is the key; eventually someone will want your unit if it's priced within the parameters of its peer group.
As for the other comments on new Accuphase CD players- it's music to my ears; looks like I'll hold tight for 6 months and see what shakes out with SACD. |
HI Glassboy
The main reason is the people selling the gray units do not want $2500.00 for them. They want around 50% to 75% of US prices, for used items. Then most wants to hide the fact that they are gray market unit and sell high.
If someone was offering a 75V for $2500.00 new and telling me it is a Japan model and what needed to be done, then yes that is reason to consider the purchase.
I have a hard time telling gray market from the others in the adds and simply have decided to not purchase an Accuphase item unit until, this problem is resolved.
I have a felling that if the gray market can be so large with Accuphase CD units, there is no reason to believe it does not exist in there other products as well.
I am a person that believes you disclose and state all facts about the item you are selling up front. You do not need to be hounded in to disclosing the facts. So I have a very hard time purchasing somthing from someone that hides the facts up front. As one member said I want to be informed and make up my mind on what I will pay for a given item.
Anyway I think this Gray Market set up is causing problems for all Accuphase item. |
Glassboy, I agree with you, I just want to have full dislosure so I can make an informned buying decision, that's what it is al about, n'est-ce pas? |
Why would you pay US$11K for Accuphase DP-75V from US importer, when you can get it straight from Japan for US$2500 brand new and then do a 10 minute voltage modification to make it work in your system? I could care less about warranty, if you get one of the 3 or 4 best sounding CD players in the world at a savings of $8000, then baby count me in. If anything ever needed repair on it, I could hire the best tech in the country, take him out to dinner and drinks on my bill, and still be thousands ahead.
I'll take my chances. Who has DP-75V new, I offer $2500. |
I bought my E203 amp and T105 tuner back in the early 80s'and it wasn't cheap then either but,it was the best audio investment I ever made. M. Yurcik. |
I have an Accuphase tuner that a friend (now deceased) gave me. It is up there with the best McIntosh, esp. after Don Scott did his magic to it. I agree with Aknorth there is a lot of grey market stuff out there. My inquiries to ebay A'phase amp sellers about the importer and voltage were met with silence. Audiodynamo, I would stress the provenance of your goods - no grey market stuff here on A'gon please. The best foreign sellers clearly state the status/voltage. |
Aknorth- Some good points made, however there is no DP-85v, it is simply a DP-85 -not a big error but could be misleading.
On the topic at hand, I had my accuphase pre for sale here and it sat a lot longer then I was expecting, it did sell. God forbid someone pays retail for this stuff your going to take a huge hit on the used market. There are no luke warm feelings about its styling either, love it or leave it to most -as stated above. I looked at your ad as well, you gotta remember that maybe it is a great unit and a fair price, but for 3k+ there are MANY choices, accuphase is a very nihce market, again as stated above, be patient; or keep it :)
~Tim |
I agree both with 'prince' and 'john', that even though high quality integrated Accuphase is still 'integrated'. And for the price, used market is saturated with equaly high
quality separates. |
Japanese companies have had a tough time establishing credibility in the high end since so much of what is designed in Japan has been horrible mass-market stuff. I'm guessing 'philes think twice about parting with large sums of money given this bias. I know there has been some great stuff from the land of the rising sun: Nak tape decks, TEAC transports, and the recent crop of SACD gear.
As for Accuphase gear, I've seen it at a recent audio show (it wasn't plugged in at the time); I don't care for the look of Accuphase, the champagne color brings back memories of the Marantz stuff from the early eighties (very mid-fi) and would not blend in with other gear which tends to be black or silver. Accuphase stuff is very expensive and has plenty of competition by some very well known and respected North American and European manufacturers. I've read some threads here on AudioGon, seems those who own Accuphase are very happy campers. Given the bias noted above, the esthetics, and the lofty price you'll need to be patient, the right buyer will come along. |
Hello
I was looking to purchase a high end CD player and the Accuphase was one I was considering. Then I found out several thing.
There are so many gray market units being sold that you have no way of knowing what you will end up with. They are direct fron Japan and has had a voltage Mod done to them after leaving the factory. They carry no warranty even if purchased new. These units are selling real cheap in Japan.
Then a big thing is Accuphase is droping the 75V and 65V and replacing them with improved units. Both of which will play standard CD, and SACD and are better units than the current models and will be lower in cost.
The next thing is that accourding to a person I spoke with in the recording business, starting real soon all future SACD'S will be master in multi-channel format ONLY. That means that they will have to down converted to 2 channel. The word is that is going to cause them to sound like crap. So the only 2 channel SACD that you are going to find is the limited stuff available now. So watch 2 channel SACD players take a nose dive in price. May be hard to almost give them away.
So if you purchase the 85V you are going to be stuck with a standard format CD player at a high price.
They knew some time back in Japan that Accuphase was dropping the 65V and 75V and replaceing them and started dumping these gray model units on the WEB. It is hard to know what is gray market and what is not. Plus you will get Accuphase quality at lower price and current models for less price soon. From what I am hearing it will be lower than current used prices for the new models. Then we will really see prices drop on the current used units or none moving.
I lucked out, a made a person what I knew to be a fair price for a 75V and he turned me down so I was still looking when I found all this. But now it is becoming a lot more well known, that Accuphase is making changes. The dealers are even telling people, as Accuphase is not shipping them any more 65V and 75V. Then the Nulti-Channel SACD format as the only SACD format being mastered in the future is killing the 85V.
If a person does not move these older units quickly, I think it is going to get a lot worse. When the adds hit the WEB it is going to be way to late.
No matter how much a person does not care about SACD, they are going to care that they are getting a better / new model Accuphase, can buy us model with warranty and new for less. Then as a bonus it will play SACD should they ever want to. If they arrive as Multi-Channel SACD as well then it will even be worse for anyone still holding the 85V, 75V and 65V.
I have heard that they will arrive as Multi-Channel. That is why they a late getting them to market.
Any way good luck. But I think that you will find, that the high number of GREY market units out there has people worried. Then with new models with lower prices and state, side warranty coming to a store near you soon, means that people simply will not spend the high dollar cost to purchase a current used unit, that is going to take a nose dive in price soon.
It is going to be interesting to see if the new models are Multi-Channel, or if they are going to be a blow out item soon as well. If this person from the recording studio is correct and Accuphase did not pick up on it, there new SACD models will soon be even lower priced than the already lower retail price, of the new units. But I have heard they will be Multi-Channel. Either way it will be a good thing for a person looking to purchase a Accuphase, and hard on sellers. |
I think it is because in the USA you don't see Accuphase all that much. I have been doing this for awhile and have never seen Accuphase in person! People are more comfortable with Krell (ouch!) and such, so dont' feel bad, someone will want it eventually. Hold tight. |
Perhaps buyers are a bit shy of some of this pricier equipment, or your asking price is just a bit above market. You also might consider showing the $7000 list price in your ad so that buyers will better understand the deal that you're offering.
Orion Blue book shows the following:
Retail
Used: $2165
MSRP: 7000
Wholesale
Mint: 1472
Average: 1001
Accuphase builds incredible quality products; I've bought 3 pieces over the past 12 months (phono stage, pre, & PA) after trying out a lot of other equipment & I finally found some keepers! I've been looking for quality & sonics like this ever since Luxman abandoned their US market; finally found it, only this is even better. Download the E406 photo from their website & add a hyperlink to your ad, or at least mention that you can provide a jpeg to interested parties. Throw some spec. info. onto your ad too. You might also want to include this link for a 5 star review of your product: http://www.epinions.com/content_22490877572 |
Ive only heard good things abuot accuphase so I'm no help there. As for the lack of action on the first day of ads, We all seem to be afraid to be the first one to jump, maybe we all need someone else to confirm the value of our desire. As for auctions , the last few hours is the golden time when everyone who wants the item suddenly rushes to get it. Don't loose heart , I have found the members of AGon to be pretty good judges of value . You have to be a little patient. |
For integrated's you have some major competition from the Jeff Rowland, Levinson, Magnum Dynalab, ARC, and now BAT.
Honestly I've never even SEEN an Accuphase component in the U.S. They look extremely well made. You might also add in a picture. I know I've lost sales because I don't have any pictures of my equipment. |
I think that the main reason might be that the integrated amp you're selling isn't that well-known, although you might have problems selling one of their better-known CD or SACD players as well, due to the price and format uncertainty, as Chuck notes. I finally got around to cleaning out my closet of some nice items I've owned but no longer use, and found that the less expensive items have gotten far more response than the more expensive ones. |
Not everyone has heard or seen the build of accuphase products and the American audiophile has been told over and over again by the press what's good and /bad .
This is not because I own Accuphase but we get in a rut
in america about products and it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks .Mike |
People are reluctant to spend $5000.00 plus on a format that is under such flux.
Chuck |
