Fplanner,
Great post, I agree completely...
Good listening,
Larry |
I bought a used VAC phibeta pre here on the 'gon; the owners manual mentions NOT to try to tube roll...I am curious after reading some of these reads about people's experience with tube rolling vs stock tubes...is it possible? does it affect warranty? what are some good options; and how does one do it? I will also replace the fuse at the same time. this is my first forray into a tubed product. by the way; huge improvement in sound stage; detail, warmth, enjoyability since the VAC is in; and the Meridian 861 processor is out...glad to be part of VAC family. |
Mribob,
The allure of tube rolling is a force, the temptation great. One can almost change, with a new tube, the overall sound presentation of their preamp. However, if the manual states, 'do NOT'--before considering a change, I'd want to personally talk to Kevin Hayes and find out what, if any effect it would have on the warrany...and moreover why he's opposed to doing so. Knowing Kevin, there are likely, very valid reasons for him opposing the change.
It won't hurt to ask, and at worst you're 'stuck' with the great sound you already know.
Mribob, don't you just love the voicing of VAC?
Good listening,
Larry |
Its easy to understand why things might occasionally fall through the cracks from the service side for about 6 weeks prior to and 4 after a major show like CES. This is not a criticism of VAC - its just common sense. I would think most people would realize this, but maybe not. I agree completely. This goes part and parcel w owning an "artisanal" product like this. There is, IMO a huge difference between this and the "bumps in the road" that one usually encounters in dealing w a "garage shop" operation. VAC has certainly stood the test of time in terms of quality, reliability, and accessibility. A wise man (or maybe woman) once said "Good oats are expensive. If you can be happy w oats that have already been thru the horse once, they are a lot less expensive." |
Mribob, VAC warranty is NOT transferrable and one of the reasons I bought mine new. The other is my preamp RARELY shows up on Agon.
I spoke with Kevin before rolling any tubes and changing the fuse. He gave me suggestions and offered his opinion. He is very supportive in my desire to experiment and always ask me to report anything interesting.
I buy all my rare NOS tubes from reputatable dealers. It's more expensive but have a peace of mine they are genuine and top quality. IMO, the only drawback in tube rolling is $$. Do your homework and if you don't like the changes, take them out. |
I have yet to see a VAC in any store. Maybe they don't have any dealers in GA. |
I bought my VAC integrated used and before the sale called Kevin to confirm the serial # and to ask him questions. He was incredibly helpful and gracious even though I was buying used. He told me that it didn't matter to him, that I was joining the VAC family and he would help in any way he could. Him and his team have always been great. This is the type of guy you want to deal with in audio. I get the impression that he is that rare breed that really understands the value of his talents and time and prices accordingly. My bet is that Kevin is doing the volume of business that he can manage well and still enjoy himself. Lucky guy.
Achilles, If you see/hear VAC gear in person it attaches itself to your brain in a way that will require you to buy it at some future point. |
I have just purchased my second vac amp the phi 200 and i must agree that alot of audiophiles are totally unaware of great products that last forever and sound as good as anything money can buy.the owner of this company is a great person that will do anything to please a customer and designs his products by attending MANY live performances a WEEK so he knows what his product should sound like and they do.my last amp was a ren 30-30 and never did I do anything but turn it on and off for 16 years.try 1 folks you will be amazed |
I owned an Avatar SE and I had the same experience as Maineiac. Called Kevin with some questions and he was on the phone within 20 seconds and seemed excited to talk about this 8 year old amp. We had a lengthy conversation led completely by him. He was in no rush and was very welcoming and enthusiastic.
At this point I need upward of 80 watts and it is a little above the budget with VAC. I think at one point I sent Maineiac an email trying to get him to sell his amp. He let me down easy. |
another (extremely) satisfied customer. i recently purchased a pair of VAC Musicblocs and have found Kevin to be incredibly helpful. he is very generous with his time on the phone and always replies to emails thoroughly and promptly. this is especially remarkable given that i purchased the gear second hand.
the level of commitment kevin has to his customers and his passion for his product is matched by a very select few (ralph at atma-sphere comes to mind). he even auditioned an alternate tube type i was considering using in place of the 12AU7 tubes just to let me know what he thought of them.
as genuinely pleased as i am in my dealings with the folks at VAC, it wouldn't mean much if the gear wasn't exceptional... it is and then some. WOW, the musicblocs are simply PHENOMENAL!! utterly amazing in my rig. |
Interesting and entertaining thread....Although there aren't tons of threads about VAC gear on Audiogon there are enough references (in VAC-centric threads and also as reference comments in threads about other gear) to understand that it is one of the few brands where owners are uniformly and consistently very happy with the performance over the long haul. I am about a week away from receiving a VAC 300.1a and VAC Ren III preamp so am eager to enjoy the VAC build quality and sound. One of the reasons I opted for VAC was also related to the principles and background of Kevin. Good information on VAC's website about his personal/professional history that gives a glimpse into his values and dedication to engineering in service of enjoying music. We are lucky to have really good guys engineering great equipment in the US (e.g., my phono amp is a Herron VTPH-2, and Keith Herron is another wonderful human being whose engineering prowess translates to my audio benefit). I'll report back once I have the VAC gear in my system. |
I think you will be overjoyed. Yes let us know what you think and of course as Kevin says welcome to the family. You will want to experiment with tube rolling. I like RCA 6SN7's from the late 1950's in the input stage of the amplifier. The preamp also sounds better with vintage tubes. If interested I can recommend some to you. |
Coincidentally, I have recently replaced the front tubes of my 300.1s with CV-181 Shuguang Black Treasures. I immediately got a stronger bass presence, wider and deeper soundstage and a more organic "you are there" sound. I got the premium tubes from Grant Fidelity and at first only changed out the center 2 tubes of each amp. I liked the sound so much I also changed out the ends. I would say the center 2 gave me about 70-75% of the change, with the ends making up the difference. Contrary to what I had heard elsewhere, it was nowhere near 95/5, at least not in my system.
These tubes are relatively expensive and pretty widely known for their quality and performance. It is the first and probably LAST time I will tube roll, quitting with a 1 for 1 average. If interested, I would try the center 2 spots and see what you think. This was easily a "1-2 component upgrade" to my 300.1s - I would say a 20-25% improvement and the new tubes are not even close to being broken in yet. If I hadn't just done it, I probably wouldn't have believed such an improvement was possible with just a few little (but expensive :-)) tubes... Good Luck and as Kevin is known to expound - "Welcome to the VAC family!" |
Hi Fplanner201, interesting read on your amps and of the changing of those tubes, thanks for sharing.
I haven't yet got arround to doing any tube rolling in my VAC pre, have you done any like others have mentioned above.
It's getting closer now in relation to getting my Statement 450's, scheduled for delivery for the first week of June. I'm anxiously awaiting it's been a long time.
I have held off doing any tube rolling in my pre because I would like to get these mono blocks in place and well broken-in and just listen to how Kevin has actually voiced them. What I heard with them paired up I truely enjoyed what I was hearing but time will tell.
Do any of you guys have any information you can share in relation to a NEW separate phono pre that Kevein has been working on.
Apparently Kevin has taken into account owners of the Sig. MK2a who have phono and you can just disconect one of the ambilical cords and via connect the new one up and you are good to go.
In my set-up that's the only area I see my self comparing, I have two arms presently and might ad a third, two MC's and one MM so I would like the luxury of ease of one phono doing everything. So currently I'm missing one MC and it's a pain having to disconect to hear the other arm/cart combo.
There are a few other manufactures phono's on my short list to try and compare but again really in no hurry, won't happen until my amps are well broken-in so I know the sound. When I heard that set-up utilizing the same pre, speakers and Statement amps the internal phono was actually being used. While I was there we compared it up against a external very exspensive unit, yes there were differences, some of the differences I really appreciated but going back to the VAC it just sounded more realistic to me which was great.
Anyone who has the internal phono and has done tube rolling, what have you used and what were the differences sonically you heard. |
Hi Dev-
I haven't had a desire at all to tube roll my VAC preamp, instead taking the path of "if its not broke and sounds great, don't fix it". The amps were a lot easier to deal with as far as just popping tubes in and out and I had heard there could be a considerable improvement. Not so much so on the preamp.
I totally agree with you on getting the 450s broken in before you touch anything else - I would do the same thing. |
... Not so much so on the preamp. Definitely NOT my experience eventhough I agree not broken in stock form. |
Thanks for good tips on tube rolling. Which leads me to another conclusion I previously reached after reading posts by VAC owners on Audiogon -- i have been impressed with the level headed, polite and positive demeanor of VAC owners on Audiogon. Low drama and hyperbole. High integrity and helpfulness. |
A question for those who run a VAC amp with VAC preamp. Which is a better connection between pre and amp, balanced or unbalanced? And any particular recommendations on interconnect between VAC pre and amp? Thx in advance for advice. |
Hi Knghifi,
did you get your other tubes that you were waiting for.
What have you settled for in your pre.
Thanks for sharing.
I have found in the past when changing tubes in other gear the outcome has allot to do with the rest of my set-up, every set-up being different in one way or another so the out come not always being the same.
Personally when I heard the Sig. MK2a paired up with the Statement 450 mono blocks there was nothing at that point that I wanted to change, I liked how Kevin voiced them.
That being said I'm open minded so down the road tube rolling is most defiantly an option, fairly in expensive way to change the flavour specially when we are talking in relation to the pre-amp, time will tell.
|
Podeschi, I don't own a VAC preamp, just a VAC amp (the Phi 200). I agree with most reviewers that the VAC Phi 200, even though fully balanced, sounds better with single-ended than balanced interconnects. I have done some extensive auditioning of cables and can recommend Crimson Music Links cables. At $320 for a 1 meter pair, they are a real find, better than anything else I tried, which included cables that cost up to $1100. The US distributor in Austin allows an extended demo of the cables. WyWires were also quite good for the money, especially if you want subterranean and very textured bass, but the Crimsons edged them out in my setup for overall openness.
If money is no object, I would give Tara Labs' high-end cables a try, although they cost almost as much as VAC components. |
/*****/
If I hadn't just done it, I probably wouldn't have believed such an improvement was possible with just a few little (but expensive :-)) tubes...
/*****/
Fplanner2010, Your 300.1 weren't broken ... you said if best yourself :-) I'm also a big fan of the BT CV-181-Z and rolling them in my DAC so imagine rolling a super CV-181-Z in your preamp. Tube rolling is just a vehicle that is available for an user to dial in the sound to their taste ... no right or wrong and bad or good but just personal preferences.
One of the reasons I decided on a VAC was it ONLY uses a MP of 12au7 and e88cc. These are very common tubes that I'm familiar with so it took little time in dialing in my sound.
Dev, funny your ask. One of my long time tube dealers found me a new MP of 60's Siemens CCa and just got them last Wed. But the system is sounding so good, I don't plan to tinker with it for a while. I finally settled with 60's Siemens wide getter support post E88CC and 50's Telefunken ribbed plate 12AU7 / ECC82
I agree with everyone just enjoy your 450 Statements and Preamp in stock form for a long long while. A Ferrari is a Ferrari whether it's riding on Pirellis or Michelins :-) |
Knghifi - thanks for sharing above. Do I understand you to be saying the CV-181-Z can replace some tubes in my preamp? Which ones? I have the Ren Sig MkIIa. This is pure curiosity for when/if I decide to do a bit more "tweaking". Thank you again.
BTW - A Ferrari is a better handling Ferrari on Pirellis.YMMV. |
/***/
05-22-11: Fplanner2010
Knghifi - thanks for sharing above. Do I understand you to be saying the CV-181-Z can replace some tubes in my preamp? Which ones? I have the Ren Sig MkIIa. This is pure curiosity for when/if I decide to do a bit more "tweaking". Thank you again.
/***/
NO, that's NOT what I meant. You cannot use CV-181-Z in your preamp. What I meant is I got my Ren Sig MKIIa to sound similiar to the CV-181-Z sonic characteristics that we both like. |
OK - Now I understand :-). What tubes did you end up replacing and what with? thanks. |
Cables of the same brand I typically prefer using the balanced with the Phi 200 especially when using the amp in Mono mode, and cables of differing brands one simply has to compare - the results are unpredictable which (RCA/XLR) will be superior.
I reviewed the Phi 200 for Dagogo.com |
In the VAC Sig 2A preamp tube rolling makes a big difference in my opinion. In the 6DJ8 position I like Brimar (England) ECC88, Amperex 6DJ8A Frames Flying Saucer Getter. In the 12AU7 position I like Mullard (1950's) 12AU7 2 Support D Getters, French Mazda 12AU7, Tungsol 12AU7A. |
I was just blown away tonight. I just replaced two of my RCA 6SN7 in my PHI 300.1 with Sylvanias in there place. So now the two middle positions are the RCA's and the two outer areas are Sylavanias. This seems to be the best combiantion of both tubes. Beautiful warmth and presence oh MY. |
On the discussion concerning tube rolling, not necessarily in any of the VAC products as it seems Kevin is very thoughtful in voicing his products and if I'm not mistaken he used to provide quality tubes for sale, not sure if this is still true or not. In any case as someone who has spent much time and expense on "tube rolling" it is my experience that it is often about "what flavor do you like". After trying many different NOS 6sn7 line stage tubes in my Supratek, the Sylvania brown base came out as being my very favorite, and with the price of these NOS tubes going through the strastosphere in price, especially from reputible dealers I considered the CV-181 Shuanang Black Treasures and the Sophia Electric 6sn7 opting for the latter after spending a bit of time on the phone and researching.
I just received these tubes last week and they are still settling in, I was told wait 100 hours before serious evaluation but I must say the results are astounding. I would say these are hands down as good as ANY NOS tube compliment I have tried including my beloved Sylvanias. At 200.00 a pair they aren't cheap, but all the tubes are so closely matched that all parameters of performance were improved dramatically, I mean a major big deal in frequency extension top to bottom, dynamics and sheer listening enjoyment. They are still a bit harsh but breaking in quite nicely 40 hours in. For any of you VAC tube rollers, depending of course on the tube function in the circuit, these tubes come with my highest recommendation. Hopefully they will last as long as the best of the NOS, time will tell but it is nice to know there are excellent alternatives. |
Question...seems posts and advice when I called VAC points to putting a matched pair of 6sn7s into the middle two sockets on the 300.1a (v2 & v3). But the manual states that V1 and V2 should be transconductance matched pairs, and V3 and V4 should be transconductance matched. Which is right? |
v2 and v3 should be matched. |
|
I'm curious, are you guys using any form of tube dampers on the
preamp side and what are the sonic differences(damp/no damp.
Reason, I picked up a Sig MKII pre(no PH). |
I am about to order Herbies tube dampers and i have brass weights on top of preamp for resonance control. Biggest difference on microphonics i experienced was trading out vac preamp phono tubes since i was experiencing low frequency hum/microphonics thru my velodyne sub. |
Podeschi, what tubes did you put in.
What does the rest of your set-up consist of. |
Thanks Podeschi,Q for Sig MKII owners,do you stack the pre on top of the power supply,wondering about any hum issues or noise.
I do have mine stacked,she seems dead quiet,overall very impressed with the Vac. |
Drummermitchell,
I have mine separate. I did not do any comparisons, just happened to have the space.
Everything is dead quiet also.
You are impressed, you should be it's agreat pce and mates well with so many others.
I specially like it mated with it's 450 Statement mono blocks. |
Wouldn't we all, any winning lottery tickets |
Would be nice to have the 450 Statement monos. Doesn't get better than that...I'd settle for a 450S or even just one more 300.1a.
Dev, I put in some back up Russian (new) tubes that were sent to me by Keith Herron for my VTPH-2 phono preamp, which is utterly silent and amazing as a phono preamp. Makes me wonder how great his VTSP-3a preamp must be.
System is:
- Clearaudio Innovation Wood turntable with Graham Phantom Supreme tonearm and Benz LP-S cartridge to Herron via Tara Labs Zero GX phono cable. Second arm = Schick 12" with Miyajima Premium BE mono cartridge
- Second table is Atma Sphere 208 (modified Empire) table with Triplanar VII ii arm and Soundsmith Ebony Voice cartridge (into VAC phono section MM)
- Modwright 5400es sacd/cd player
- PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Bridge
- Audience AR12 conditioner and power chords "e"
- mix of Harmonic Technology, Silkworm+ and Cardas GR cables
- Just replaced Esoteric MG20 speakers with Magnepan 3.7s
- Velodyne DD15+ subwoofer
- various isolation devices (e.g., Symposium ultra platforms) |
BTW, the tubes I put in the VAC 300.1a are the ken-rad vt 231 black glass. Like them a lot. |
With my Bryston's I'm content,unless like JWM says win the
lotto.
I was shocked that I could even get the pre(used).
All in all,in the comfort zone,now it's gonna take some time
reading up on tubes,she never ends. |
Podeschi, have you done any comparisons between your VTPH-2 phono preamp and the VAC's built-in?
Yes I agree it doesn't get better having the Sig. MK2a pre paired up with the Statement 450 mono blocks, I'm very fortuante to own both which has finally gotten me off the merry-go-round. I have owned the pre-amp for approx a years time and kept searching for what I felt was the ideal amps paired up and once I heard the 450's earlier this year it was a no brainer.
I'm logging in hours, at least 500 on the amps prior to starting my comparisons in relation to phono stages, my pre also having one built-in.
My system;
- MBL 101E speakers
- VAC Sig. MK2a pre w/phono
- Vac Statement 450 mono blocks
- TW Acustic Black Knight table
- Minus K platform(custom made)table sits ontop
- Various arms and carts
- 2- Torus RM20 units which everything is plugged into, once my amps have logged in the 500 hours I will do some comparisions which include unplugging them from such to see.
- Stealth Audio cables through out
I owned the MBL 1621a transport (absolutely amazing) and had it paired up with a AA Ref Tube dac (another amazing pce) but unfortuantly preferred my vinyl set-up by far and these pces just sat around unused so I sold them. I will replace them with something down the road so I can listen to my nice collection of cd's but for now in no hurry.
I have some very nice premium matched pairs of tubes that I was using in this dac so I'll be trying them in my phono section and see.
Drummermitchell,
yes I agree the 28's paired up with the Vac pre really works nicely.
... but that being said your jaw will drop upon hearing your Vac pre paired up with these 450 amps.
Areas that I felt would be the 28's strengths or any top notch solid state amps that I had in my system which ended up not being so which totally surprised me once I heard the 450's were;
1. Floor noise, in comparison the 450's are substantually lower, anyone who has experienced this knows the over all benefits and effects of such.
2. Base in all areas, in comparision the 450's are far superior, control, deep base along with substance, more realistic which just leaves you shaking your head wondering how the heck can these tube amps do this compared to say the 1000 watt solid state amps.
3. Micro and macro dynamics, very nice indeed, no comparision.
Individules who already use tube amps know of their strengths and why they preffer using such, with these 450's you get all of this and then some, absolutely amazing. |
Dev,
Yes, I've compared the Herron to my VAC, the Fosgate Signature, etc in my system, and in other's systems as well. There is something about the organic transparency and timing of the VTPH-2 that I have yet to find in any phono preamp. It works perfectly for my ears. The MC section is particularly strong in the VTPH, preferring it to even really good SUTs going into MM on VAC or Herron. BTW, I was getting ready to box and store my redbook CDs until I bought the Modwright 5400es. I had listened to/auditioned 10k+ cd players and nothing approached the natural timber and soundstage of vinyl until I heard the Modwright. Ordinary redbook CDs are unbelievable, as are SACDs (a bit wider of a soundstage)....Some redbook CDs beat vinyl in listenability (e.g., dynamics and noise floor). |
Podeschi I couldn't agree with you more. I am now using myaudiocable (MAC) in silver as the umbilical and like it better than Dan's new cable. The Sony player has that midrange that I have not heard in other players. I even compared it to the Playback Designs CD player and it was not even close. Dan hit a home run with this one. My Aesthetix Io Signature phono stage matches up beautifully with the VAC Preamp. By the way anyone going to RMAF this year? |
JWM, thanks and by the way I purchased a VAC preamp and amp partially due to the threads I've read here on Audiogon, including your's, so thanks, because I love my VAC gear, and think Kevin Hayes is superb with his service level. |
I sent my VAC Phi Beta preamp in for service; as I bought it used. Kevin and Brent kept me informed every step of the way; it was finished on time; Kevin spent a lot time listening to, tweaking it; and replacing the tubes with a matched set. It was returned to me pristine; better than new; scruffs buffed out; shinny; and more importantly; it sounds better the ever. Their costs to me were very modest for the work and time the put in. I plan on keeping this unit in my rig until it dies, which hopefully won't be a for a long time. I can't imagine a better service relationship with the owner; even for gear no longer under warranty; and purchased used...they do great work! and make great sound! |
VAC is a great amp my friend has 200PHI sounds wonderful,great stage,depth,imaging etc.Who really cares if people dont rap about VAC. |
Had a Phi 200, currently enjoy a Sigma 160i....Vac and Kevin Hayes are first class. Simply sublime sound, friendly, courteous discourse and just the right features. 2 channel specialists in the sincerist form. |
Gentlemen I too bought my VAC gear because of the maturity, intelligence and quality of discourse between VAC owners on A'gon. As a "family," we seem less dysfunctional than some other (not all, some) amp owners that get a bit aggressive with infighting, name calling and other unnecessary dramas that make me question the objectivity of the postings. I recently bought Ghasley's VAC Phi 200 and I've never been so happy with a piece of gear and the genuine care exhibited through the entire process (thanks Geoff!).
Probably safe to say that we all appreciate Kevin's personality, integrity, and professionalism because we live and emulate those traits ourselves.
I'm kind of glad VAC is the best kept secret in high-end audio. And although it initially bothered me that few if any major Hi-Fi mags had reviews of VAC instruments, now I love it. It's like knowing a great undiscovered restaurant that keeps a low profile and knows you by name as you walk in the door...
VAC owners just seem happier.
Now I've got a tech question about a VAC MC phono stage issue, but I'll start a new thread. |
|
Thanks Jwm,
Here's the link to the new thread with my question about trouble with the phono stage on my VAC pre, in case any of you have some insight...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1321838662&openmine&zzAlonski&4&5#Alonski |
