Why not horns?

Macrojack.
I'm surprised that you never posted your system to help the cause of the horn....

I have Avantgardes and I'm in love.

All quiet on the horn front. Apparently everyone is so content with their speakers that there is nothing else to say.

Glad Bills busy hes one of the good guys in audio.

I'm getting email inquiries daily about the status of Bill Woods. So I checked into the matter. Several people who have contacted Bill report that he is not taking any more horn orders for a year so as to catch up with demand.

Turns out this is true. Bill is in demand with the pros and with certain speaker manufacturers. He has taken on a huge contract and feels he has to postpone taking additional horn orders until he has the time to fill those orders properly.

Meanwhile, he will be busy with design and consulting commitments. No rest for the best.

Macro, I am in same corner when it comes to sound for pound (sterling/dollar). I have gotten good sound (I think so) from my horns, purchased very reasonably on here.
If I had to I would possibly try and have a go at making a DIY pair, but as I am happy with the Oris's and simply over the moon with my H1's, I have no need to venture down that road.The H1's are my perfect speaker and I could not be happier and would never sell them.
If I ever venture to New York, I will for sure make Highwater Sound (jeff is a nice guy) my first port of call.
Got the hear the latest version of the Aspara Acoustics HL1 and their top of the range HLR.

The JBL has a passive crossover built into the cabinet but there are connections on the back for separate driver hook up. At first I used the JBL XO and just disconnected the mid-range horn in the JBL and connected my AH300 horn instead.

Then when I got the dbx, I ran out of my preamp to the inputs of the dbx and then on to an amplifier that drives my horns and another amp that drives my woofers. Currently I have replaced the JBL woofers with a pair of RCF L15P530 woofers. The only thing from the JBLs that I still use is the box.

My crossover frequency between my woofers and my horns is 300 Hz. I use a 24 db/octave LR filter in both directions, one half meter of time delay, and a small amount of shaping. I'm sure I don't have it optimized but I'm quite happy with the sound overall. Does this explanation make sense?

MJ,

So what is handled in your configuration by the JBLs versus the custom horn loaded drivers?

Are teh JBLs biampable or is the complete full range speaker in play but fed only a certain frequency range by the dbx acting as a crossover?

Here is the newer PA+ version. It does all the same things that mine does. I use it as a crossover, time delay and EQ.
http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/

With this device you can shape your sound any way that you want.

macro,

I see it.

Its not clear to me what the dbx does and whether a separate crossover of some sort is needed?

Thanks.

Mapman - Scan back up this very page about 10 entries and you will see a pretty complete recipe for my speakers that I submitted on July 20. If I wasn't clear or didn't provide enough info, feel free to ask me questions.

Macro,

Can you provide a single post with the recipe for your speakers including the end cost?

PErhaps the info has been provided but I either missed it or it is in too many bits and pieces to soak in cleanly.

Gawdbless - When you were talking about wooden cones I took you to mean conical wooden horns. JohnK apparently thought you were talking about conventional drivers with wooden cones. It is apparent you guys are cross talking and missing each other's meanings.

I agree that $53,000 is way too much to pay for speakers when you simply don't have that kind of money, which I don't. However, I have been trying to notify you people that you can acquire the same performance and comparable cosmetics for approximately 10% of that investment.

I've spelled it all out repeatedly. I've told you how to investigate for yourself. If you want me to do more, I can set you up for half of $53,000 or $26,500 plus shipping. And I can get you a deal on a bridge too. Have you ever seen the Brooklyn Bridge? How would you like to be the one charging tolls on that baby?

Mapman - My setup is shown on the Acoustic Horn website. I have provided several links earlier in this thread but no one seems to have noticed.

Go to "Testimonials" and scroll down to "Tom in Denver". I'm not actually in Denver but that isn't too important. You should be able to enlarge the photos with just one click. The speakers are still the same even though I have changed most of the rest of the pictured gear.

Thanks for the explanation JohnK, you lost me in the first sentence though. Makes me wonder why wood is still used then if there is better available? $53,000 is just plain ludicrous for a pair of speakers in my eyes. Would love to hear them one day though.

These are nice looking:

Zingalis

Anyone heard them?

macro,

Have you provided pictures of your setup?

That would help others get a better picture of where you are coming from.

Vernneal - That's subject to personal circumstances. My horns are 24" wide by 21" deep by 52" tall. Not small and not enormous. Because they are back near the front wall, their space consumption isn't particularly egregious, however, the 18" diameter horn mouth is pretty eyecatching. In other words, the aren't really too big but they are pretty conspicuous.

Given the need for space behind them, I would say that most panels are effectively larger.

why not horns???
too damn big

You have a triple alnico magnet magnesium dome tweeter, a ceramic composite cone mid alnico mags,paper cone woofers. I have listened to a few wooden cones and there are better about. So many types of cone material. Sure some are better than others. But its the total design of the transducers not any 1 part that I consider when designing loudspeakers or ordering custom build audio drivers.

Is there a sonic difference between a fibreglass cone and a wooden cone? if so, can someone please explain the benefits and or negatives of both materials? (one benefit with fibreglass is I suppose there is no chance of it getting attacked by woodworm,lol). I think my cones are made of fibreglass, although I am willing to be corrected on that.
Johnk- did you ever dabble with wooden conical cones?

Here is a link for the AH300 horn in the OMA speaker.

http://www.acoustichorn.com/products/300/

A pair of these horns is $2700 in plain maple with a small upcharge for other woods. I believe I paid an extra $150 for cherry.

You can have the aluminum horn throat customized for any driver you wish to use at no extra charge. The B&C drivers that I use sell for around $1100/pair. These numbers are not chump change but they really are a bargain. I combined my horns with a pair of JBL L-200 cabinets (usually $1000 - $1200 per pair used) and a DBX Drive Rack PA for $400. Beyond this, all you need is 2 amps for bi-amping and some time, effort and experimentation tweaking the many variable settings on the DBX. If you do the math, you'll notice you are pretty close to 10% of $53,000.

You may notice I didn't mention a tweeter. That's because you probably won't need one but the B&C driver is a coax and there is a concentric horn tweeter included should you want it. That can be crossed in passively or you can add a small amp and tri-amplify.

The performance level of this speaker will blow your mind.

I meant to say prices have to come way down to re-sell which means the owner will take a big financial hit if they re-sell new big bucks speakers.

The cost is the one thing I suspect I could not live with and would be the reason "why not horns" for me in this particular case.

Also there is a lot of competition at the $53000 price point.

Also it seems that very expensive speakers in general seem to depreciate the most on the used market as well which makes them a bad investment. People with the money to afford $53000 speakers are not searching for used bargains I suspect which means the prices have to come way down into the range of mere mortals to re-sell without taking a big financial hit.

They do. In fact, many people would say they sound a lot better than they look. They were designed for OMA by Bill Woods.

A bargain at $53,000?
HELLO, earth to reviewer.
Those cost of those speakers (to me anyway) are a sure case of 'why don't I try and build my own'?

OM Horns

These are horns that I think I could live with some day if they sound as good as they look.

You would use a capacitor and pentameter or fixed resistors if you can afford fostex r100t transformer attenuators even better. Some Altecs might need networks updated but most do not.The t900a has a stand you just move it forward or back to get some time alignment vertically. Very easy to do.

Johnk,
How would you do the "Add fostex t900a tweeters a few parts adds about $1100 more" integration into the M19s? Would you replace the uppermid drivers with something else (as was suggested on a long thread over at Lansing Heritage a year or two ago)?

Mapman - Please don't quote Ronald Reagan to me. The man was a moron.
I do hope you are bright enough to realize as much.

Macro,

As Ronald Reagan would have said, "there you go again" drawing unsubstantiated conclusions.

How do you know how people read Audiogon threads?

I can assure you a lot more threads are read than people actively participate in.

And its pretty egocentric to think that if they are not chirping in on your thread that it is Audiogon's fault.

It is a safe bet most likely though that the majority of people out there using horns or any other speaker type are content just enjoying music on them and do not need or care about outside info from Audiogon or any other audio centric site.

For those that do care about horns and their place in niche high end audio world specifically, Audiogon is surely the place to be. But for those just interested in horn speakers in general, there is abundant information out there beyond the small sampling of info referenced here.

Gawddamn, gawdbless, your jokes are terrible. And don't seem to segue too well into this discussion. Lousy, unfunny, awkward and inappropriate.

It appears to me that only a handful of the thousands of people who use horn based speaker systems worldwide can be bothered to read the Audiogon forums. I think it is because they have progressed so far beyond the trivial egocentric, brand name palaver that dominates these discussions that they long ago lost interest. For my own part, I have stopped reading anything that asks about B&W or Thiel or Vandersteen or Krell or Wilson because there is never anything new or interesting to be found. My apologies for inquiring.

Is pissing with rain so I thought I would share a joke;

A simple spelling mistake caused my divorce, I went
to Amsterdam and sent
a message to my wife, 'having the most amazing and
wonderful time wish you were her'!

Thanks Duke and Johnk for the responses, very informative! It would be interesting to hear a pair of the model 19's sometime.

We: there are some lovely looking speakers on the bd site.

Sonic differences of Altec model 19 and Altec a7 but keep in mind a7 performance varies with drivers used. Model 19 lower bass, more treble extension. Less coloration for model 19. A7 can play louder the horn loaded mid-bass is very enjoyable has a punch and detail that is missed by model 19. I have been able to use A7 in small spaces since you can adjust the midhorns angle. The model 19s images is more detailed over a7. Image height is better with a7. Both are very good sounding loudspeakers. To me both are a bit dark voiced since hi frequency extension for either not equal to the better modern designs still a easy fix just add fostex super tweeters. I have owned 3 pair a7 and 2 pair model 19 most klipsch models many other Altecs.

The following article was sent to me by an experienced and dedicated horn enthusiast. I thought it might help to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning horns and their potential, especially since it comes from a very credible source.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/whyhorns.htm

Aw, come on Dan, let us know how you really feel ;-)) LMFAO!!

Macrojack, I will correct one of your posts regarding my past visitations of the OMA site.

I will only say that my "time" visiting with OMA was very short, very educational, and very eye-opening.

To say that I would not let my dog lift his leg on the side of the OMA barn would be a gross understatement.

Hope this makes my position clear. Nothing against Acoustic Horns.

07-10-10: Gawdbless
www.bd-design

Love the subwoofers :)

Duke - It appears from photos of the K-2 that Usher made a copy of it at one point. Is the Usher as good? Or better?

Thanks, Macrojack. Since posting the link, I have "met" one of that paper's authors in another online forum (he and I are disagreeing about something... surprise surprise!).

I don't have any experience with either the K-2 or Everest, but I'm sure they're awesome.

The original Everest, circa 1985, used an asymmetrical horn to achieve the desired toe-in angle without having to actually toe the speakers inward:

Original JBL Everest

I borrowed the concept; one of my models uses asymmetrical enclosures to achieve the same end, but with a conventional symmetrical horn.

Duke

Here we are at half-time in the World Cup Final and I have to revise a comment I made a while ago. I called the Dutch physical. After watching a half where they should have wound up playing with only 9 guys on the field, I want to say that the Dutch are a chippy, chickensh*t, cheating bunch of thugs. Hup yours, Holland.

Interesting article, Duke, although much of it went over my head.

I've seen a lot of references over the years to the JBL K-2 and Everest speakers as if they represent a pinnacle of speaker design. Do you know anything about them and how well they stand up to other statement speakers?

Learsfool, I don't have first-hand experience with the A7, but it seems to me that there might be a step-down in response below the frequency were the short horn in front of the woofer un-loads, such that in the bass region the response might normally be down a few dB relative to the midrange and above. This may be compensated for in the crossover, or it could be offset by boundary reinforcement with appropriate placement. Lacking that short horn in front of the woofer, the Model 19 would probably be a bit lower in overall efficiency but would not have a potential step-down between the midrange and bass region.

Perhaps the primary innovation of the Model 19 was moving the crossover frequency up to 1200 Hz. This seems rather counter-intuitive, but what it did was allow pattern-matching in the crossover region. At 1200 Hz the woofer's pattern had narrowed sufficiently to match that of the horn, so there was no discontinuity in the off-axis response. The "manta ray" horn had constant directivity in the horizontal plane above the crossover point. These are worthwhile characterisics because in many listening situations the off-axis response strongly influences or even dominates the perceived tonal balance, though I think horn design has advanced since then. Wayne Parham, Earl Geddes, and yours truly embrace constant directivity and pattern-matching in the crossover region.

A few years after the Model 19 was introduced, JBL designed a studio monitor, the Model 4430, with strong emphasis on pattern-matching in the crossover region as well as constant-directivity above the crossover region. I would not be surprised if the Model 19 was one of their primary inspirations. While the horn geometry is quite a bit different, the basic concept is similar to that of the Model 19. Here's a link to an Audio Engineering Society paper written by the designers of this speaker:

The landmark JBL Model 4430 studio monitor

Duke

:-) HUP! HOLLAND HUP! :-)

http://www.bd-design.nl/

is a good site for Oris lovers.

To Johnk or any other person knowledgeable about Altecs - could someone briefly describe the differences between the Altec model 19 and the A7 Voice of the Theater? I am very familiar with the latter, as my uncle owns a pair, but I have never heard the former, and I keep hearing a whole lot of Altec fans saying they are the best. Why?

But for $1500 you can purchase Altec model 19 in good condition. Add fostex t900a tweeters a few parts adds about $1100 more, performance of this combos hard to beat under 10k no mater what you buy. And can be tweaked to be even better for not much outlay or skills. Heck most guys who complain about DIY a horn kit or adding a super tweeter easily can assemble there computers or modern furniture that seems be most DIY kit in itself.

Mapman - Part of my intent here is to elicit testimony from people like myself who found an affordable way to put together a good horn system.

T-bone - I suspect you are right. I know a couple of guys in other parts of the country who have Oris and swear by them. Both are seasoned audiophiles and highly credible.

I see Oris150 horns with bass cab sets on Audiogon every now and then for $3-4k. I expect those could hang pretty well with the best as long as the drivers are good ones, and the crossover point is done well.