Why not horns?

I have 3 Acoustat TNT200 and an Acoustat TNT120. All just rebuilt by Roy Esposito of Sounds Like New. As I've stated before, 'I don wanna buy a tube amp'. So I will be using a 4 way Marchand cross-over. I have all the drivers and a line on a reputable cab builder. I'm hoping to have them set up by late summer. Actually, I have a Dynaco ST-70 with an upgrade/mod kit that's been sitting around for a few years. It came with a cd installation manual but when I finally decided to tackle it this past weekend, I discovered my recently acquired MacBook Air doesn't have a cd port. What the heck?! So much for paying attention at the Apple Store.

Csontos, JBL 4345's is a very nice system. I have never heard a pair, tho would certainly like to. (I have grown accustomed to my head, tho),
You have a nice sized room. What amplification are you planning?

I'm in the process of building a pair of fully active, altered JBL 4345. I'm subbing in 2206 12" midrange and 2390 horn assembly. Ian Kackenzie on the Lansing Heritage site gave me the recipe. I have a 16X30 room for them so I think they'll still be able to rip my head off! It will be my first experience with JBL. Hope I survive.

I like the looks of the new JBL Studio 530 monitors. Would like to hear them.

The above reference to Art Dudley's article on sucky bass is a valuable post referencing one of the great articles that I have read on the state of speakers as well as the psychology of audiophiles and their speaker choices (that has led to some truly overrated and overpriced speakers nevertheless sell.

Does anyone happen to have any experience with JBL 4550 speaker systems? I do find a few owner/user pictures of their rigs featuring such on the web (images) and they only direct to sites in Japanese or Chinese.

Horns are natures amplifier.

A horn loudspeaker done right is hard to beat on many levels some of there attributes being: better dispersion than non-horns, 5dB increase in bass, can be used to increase a driver set efficiency, look cool.

"05-22-10: Shadorne
The very best horn designs run at about 3% THD when played loud and this will distortion is audible and in treble."

Now where did that come from? The best horns are a lot lower than that figure. Please document where "the best horns" are this high in distortion.

There is a unique horn speaker being built iup in Maine that sounds unlike any other horn (or speaker) that I have heard. I have never desired any type of horn, the sound wasn't anything I could live with, and the esthetics were too big and ugly. But, these have opened my eyes to possibilities I never dreamed.

http://www.voltiaudio.com/

05-15-11: Macrojack
...

So feel free to sing the praises of your big beautiful speakers if that's your wish. I've been doing so for a couple of years now without any infestation -- just a few insults and a little derision and name calling -- things I learned to ignore back in second grade.

Perhaps I'm not fully qualified to start praising my OSWG waveguide-based speakers being this is a horn thread(overlapping and such), but in light of a not insignificant percentage of other posts that seem to veer off quite differently, or should one say inappropriately on this topic, I gather I'm not too far off trying to support the overall subject matter of this thread.

A Compression driver fitted in front of a 12" waveguide and a 12" bass/mid unit has opened up the soundscape in my livingroom to a substantial degree. My current speaker iteration of this will soon(this coming weekend) be replaced by a new version, going from a Beyma 12BR70 and BMS 4524 to the Beyma 12B100/R and B&C DE500 + different crossover - using a similar fiberglass waveguide and incorporated enclosure(with different port-tuning). Crossover frequency will move from 1.5kHz down to 800Hz in the new iteration(a note on bandwidth: 800Hz to 18-20kHz by one single unit - with power respons and constant directivity fairly in place - has major benefits, and moves the crossover point out of the most critical frequency region). We're not sitting at typical horn-level efficiency here, but a measured 93dB is still a relatively high number in the general hifi-domain.

In short modern compression drivers in front of well-made waveguides or horns add many advantages over more conventional, direct radiating "hifi" dome-tweeters - advantages to some and not to others, I suppose, but to me the current state of waveguides/horns and compression drivers -- as may have earlier/older and perhaps more select models -- definately merits sound reproduction of extremely high quality that doesn't take second seat to the direct radiating, lower efficiency alternatives - on the contrary; faithfulness to tone and timbre is truer, the sense of effortlessness is lightyears ahead - indeed so pronounced to help the music feel freed and natural, the ability to handle complex music material almost nonchalantly adds insight, macro and micro dynamics in spades, excellent transient abilities, a marked sense of energy coherence and body/physicality, scale, etc. - all of which stands in the service of a more faithful reproduction of live, acoustical music.

In the latest Stereophile issue, April 2013, Art Dudley in his article 'How I learned to stop worrying and love sucky bass' brings some very relevant observations on the state of bass quality in loudspeakers over the last decades. Apart from acknowledging having lived with bad bass quality for some while he in turn goes on trying to identify the nature of "true bass" and how this to his ears is most faithfully reproduced in loudspeakers. My reason for pointing this out is being in agreement with him on larger, low excursion bass/mid units, 12" and up, being far better in reproducing natural bass than smaller, high excursion units - the latter of which have come to dominate most of the hifi-arena.

It would follow, to my ears at least, that speaking of horn- or waveguide-based speakers(via compression drivers or similar units) carries the virtues not only of this singular field, complex and diverse it may be, but as well the added benefits of the larger bass/mid drivers that very often goes along with this type of mid to high frequency reproduction. That makes, or at least could make horn and/or waveguide speakers all the more interesting, adding to the relevance of this thread.

Gotta love Altecs!

I heard these at 2010 Capital Audiofest and the setup with them was one of the better ones there. I lot of people stayed and listened a long time not wanting to leave, including me. Not a bad deal.

Cathedral Horns

Check this out:

http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/Products/imperia.html

I have a horn system - AV Trios- after having had many rather expensive dynamic and planar speakers. Here are some things I have noted. These comments are only specific to the Trios but conceivably they could apply to other similiar horn designs.
1. They work splendidly with relatively inexpensive electronics. I drive the Trios with a four watt integrated amplifier made by Sophia Electric. The sound field generated with this combination is large and densely textured. I love this amplifier.
2. Cabling is not nearly as critical as it is with less efficient speakers and the higher power amps required to drive them. I loathe paying a grand (or two) for 1 meter ICs. I am not saying that cabling is not important, the Trios are exquisitely revealing but just that the lesser grade cables still sound reasonably good.
3. Room interactions seem much less critical with my horns. In fact I have pushed the horn array (3 horns) right up against the back wall and it does not seem to affect the wave launch density or imaging structure. This does not apply to the side walls or to the bass drivers however. Some adjustment is required as expected.
4.Wave launch characteristics are similiar to planar drivers in that sound field is very big. I have had friends criticize the Trios for making images larger than life. This is probably a fair criticism and is admittedly a departure from the live experience but I like the effect even if it is artificial. It makes it easier to "see" into the music.
5.Overall cost of ownership is lower due to more favorable resale value and less expensive associated electronics and cables.
6. Lastly the micro and macro dynamics of horns are generally better. This becomes more noticeable when you go back to conventional dynamic speakers after having lived with a good horn system. Some folks say they "shout" but I have only noticed that when they are overdriven or played too loud. LL

You know, if people would purchase a horn speaker I am willing to bet a substantial sum that they wouldn't be seeking to constantly try another, and another speaker system. I wish people would learn about the basics of why a horn integrates into a room so well as opposed to repeatedly trying to use cone drivers directly coupled into a room. Then, by doing that and hearing them they would disabuse themselves of the itch to constantly try another cone system.

We watched True Grit at my house last night. No cone or planar will ever deliver gun shots like my horns did. We checked each other for blood.

Hxt1 - Thanks for noticing.

If you are considering a change and would like suggestions about a move to horns, this thread would be an excellent place to seek advice and/or suggestions.

You can also learn a lot by joining this forum:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/

and asking questions.

Ultimately, I got enormous help and advice from Bill Woods. He has owned, worked with, tested and built just about everything available in speakers in his professional past. When he reached retirement age, he left the corporate world and started designing and building horn systems. Today he calls himself The Acoustic Horn Company and operates out of a small shop behind his house in Hastings, Ontario. He doesn't sell a lot of his own product directly to the public but his AH!300 horn is used in several of the finest loudspeakers available today. With it you would have the basis for a world class system. Check out his website: http://www.acoustichorn.com/

You can find pictures of many systems, including mine, in the Testimonials section.

On Audio Circle you can find extensive info about Earl Geddes and his speakers. He is very popular with the DIY crowd there.

And post your room and your system here. Perhaps there is a strategy you haven't considered concerning upgrade sequence. It is also possible that some of us might have spare parts we can offer you.

Pete Seeger said that a camel is a horse designed by a committee so I guess you want to keep that in mind as the advice pours in, but you never know what good might come of this gambit. Stick your neck out.

Macro, sounds like you've got a heck of a system there!!!
I'm considering swapping my f166's for something more.... esoteric.. alnico?
field coils?
Who knows.
Onward and upward!

Macrojack, you are absolutely correct. I changed the "word" in my own head, assuming it was an insult to horns (which I still beleive), although it might have been a joke. This was Face's 1st appearance on this particular thread (Why not horns)and that is what I referred to when I said he showed up late. I guess I went into defense mode, thinking he was best buddies with some others (you know who I am referring to). I apologize to anyone and everyone who might have taken me the wrong way. I will behave next time. Thank you for calling me out and explaining it. Again, have a great 4th.....

Macrojack, I do not know what I said to give you this impression, but you are definetely entitled to your opinion. I am wondering if you have me confused with someone else. Would you please explain why you think my foot is in my mouth ?

Because you are scolding him for showing up when he did. For all you know, he joined Audiogon that day.

Also note that Face said, "Horns blow". Somehow you came away thinking he said suck.

I assumed he was attempting a play on words as most people think trumpet when they hear horn. We're the only weirdos who mean speaker when we say horn.

Or maybe he was being a wiseguy -- that happens too.

Viridian, I used the term immaturity to indicate his use of the word "suck", as I personally and professionally feel this is a word an adult should not use to describe "anything". Kids use this word. And, this thread has been up for quite a while, so he was late in his joining in. Macrojack, I do not know what I said to give you this impression, but you are definetely entitled to your opinion. I am wondering if you have me confused with someone else. Would you please explain why you think my foot is in my mouth ? I wish everyone a great July 4th holiday.......

I wanna hear a pair of Living Voice's flagship 'Vox Olympian' horn speaker.
Check out the 6moons feature on these simply gorgeous monsters. They make my heart swoon and palpitate at the same time.

Why not horns? for me this pair needs 6 correct lottery numbers, or an IRS three more noughts slip up.
I think they cost about $300,000.

Good post, Viridian ---- but you're kinda late.

MrDecibel has had that foot in his mouth for 3.5 weeks now.

Noseplums - That depends on the horn. . . what is it made from? How large is it? Does the material seem to resonate when playing?

In general, I suppose the answer is yes, but coat the outside surface only. Coating the inside would alter airflow and corrupt your wave.

Someone is showing a great deal of immaturity, as well as showing up late in the game.

I still see Lascalas around under $1k. Altec A7 to me the better design also under 1k. Altec model 19s about 1.5k, K horns about 2.5k. All good loudspeakers lots of other options in horns under 1k if you buy used, pro-audio or vintage.

Horns blow.

:)

Given that my Lascala's might not be the "perfect" horn system, it was amazing how much more I wanted to, and did, listen to music after aquiring them, and, with each and every modification. I still own many "other" speakers that have taken up space in 2ndary systems(sold more than kept), but the system that draws me in are the horns. Aquire a pair (Fortes are not much 2nd hand), although I prefer the Lascala over all other Klipsch at this respective price point. The bass horn makes a huge difference over others....Just my opinion. And yes, I have a child that went through college, as well as other bills, so I understand the monetary constraints.

I have a neophyte question. (I admit I have not read every
response in this thread, maybe it's been touched upon .)

For a smallish mid- or tweeter horn, mid in particular,
would it be desirable to coat the metal casting with
some kind of goopy damping/deadening material ?

I have some horn mids I bought long ago to experiment with.

Thanks !

Meanwhile, I hope to attend Capital Audiofest again this year in suburban DC. Horn speaker systems had a more than healthy presence there last year and delivered some of the best sound in show. Maybe I'll hear something that will up the ante like the custom GOTO horns did last year, but I suspect if I do that the cost (not to mention size) will be astronomical as well in conjunction and the benefits over what I already have marginal at best as well. We'll see....

I hear you, Mapman. I'm feeling the same way now with similar circumstances.
I have one son in college and one who just decided it's not for him.

Participation on both of the audio forums I visit is down and the topics are mostly boring and rehashed rote. Hi end audio is withering on the vine. I have things to sell and can't seem to be bothered doing it. Any moves I can afford to make at this point in my life in regard to audio would be more lateral than vertical. The price of the dream equipment has moved beyond my wildest dreams. The carrot is out of reach and my interest has flagged because of apparent futility.

For a time, a bit of bargain hunting, downsizing and DIY kept my interest but now even those diversions have no effect.

I think I'm just going to like what I have. Multi-channel sound and special effects video have left me longing for simpler times. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'm going to be young again.

Thanks MJ, I will consider that advice.

Unfortunately for horns, I am drowning in good sound everywhere at the moment already and not enough time to listen to what I already have, so I am not feeling the need to make another major investment quite yet.

I also have two kids still to send to college.

Someday when the urge reaches critical mass in relation to the big picture, I may take the plunge in that I suspect it is true that very good horns may be one of the only designs that might substitute for what I have, hence the interest. But only if I am able to do it right and in harmony with the rest of my life.

Mapman - Does your wife need you to approve her hairstyle and attire before she can step out of the front door? Does she have to consider HAF when discussing decorating or gardening choices with her friends?

Just buy the damn horns and get it over with. And give it a fair shot. You are very knowledgeable vis a vis hi fi. Try something real like Oris, AH!, Edgar, etc. Klipsch Forte, while good for what it is, doesn't have the pizazz to get you past your Walsh infatuation.

Back on the positive note regarding horns, I just picked up a pair of TAD 125 Hibachi 2 monoblocks that I am acclimating to in my 2 channel a/v system currently.

I suspect these are probably the first amps I have owned that would seem to be overtly horn friendly, so this opens up some future possibilities, though WAF is still a big barrier for me to trying horns in a serious manner.

I am not sensitive at all about negativity, except if delivered in a malicious manner. Its a fact of life that there is probably nothing that is immune from being disliked, even Scotty McCreary.

Its a slippery slope to do anything that discourages open discourse......

Horns in general are quite sensitive. It is incorrect to generalize similarly about horn owners.

In my own case, I am not particularly sensitive about negativity but I do find myself growing impatient at times with those who insist upon imposing poorly informed or uninformed aspersions on the entire horn category. There are many different horn designs, many different implementations and many different applications. Any and all of these are apt to be misapplied and/or misunderstood by individuals who are mischievous, malicious or naive.

If you read back through this thread carefully, you will find all of the above.

For my part, Bill Woods horns proved to be perfect. Notice the word "proved". I'm offering a well-established, thoroughly vetted, personal opinion. That means I am not wrong. Can't be. Anyone is welcome to disagree as to their own experience but no one can disqualify my experience.

On a similar note, let me ask if anyone here has actually heard the Acoustic Horn AH300 with B&C DCX 50 compression driver? I know of a few members who have but I suspect they are not to be found amongst the critics.

JW5115 - Your messages do not seem to come from a sober person whose first language is English. I find myself guessing as to what you are trying to say. Try again. No caps, please.

WOw, shouty all caps in a horn thread. That's sure to not be very popular here! Horn lovers can be quite sensitive!

TOUCHY, MY ASS! ;-) TURN YOUR DAMN CAPS LOCK OFF AND MAYBE PEOPLE WON'T TAKE YOUR POST THE WRONG WAY! ;-)

Otherwise, I agree with you.

It could be that you were SHOUTING!!!

Your first contribution to this thread was also SHOUTING so lots of people may have passed it over. I did. It was also a bit difficult to read (double negative then compared against a single negative).

It could be that your second comment was obviously meant to test participants (though they may not have figured out what it was that you were testing).

I looked through your limited posting history and figured out you were a 'horndog' before I posted, but it would have been easy to jump to conclusions given recent 'difficulties' in hornville.

TOUCHY!! TOUCHY!! WHAT WAS I SAID THAT LED YOU TO BELIEVE I WAS NOT A HORNY GUY. I MUST BE WELL HIDDEN IN THE BUSHES!!
HORNS DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY A LOUD AMPLIFIED EVENT IN ORDER TO BE CONSIDERED RELEVENT.

A SINGE VIOLIN OR PIANO IS THE REAL TESTFOR INSTRUMENTS

I have indicated many times in my posts that I use live, unamplified music as my reference, as many others have as well. Unfortunately, systems cannot equal it, ime, but can simulate it at various levels (not only spl). MrD

JW-

Unless the "LIVE" event is a rather intimate venue, it will reach your ears via horns. Did you know that? If so, why the remark?

The thread started a long time ago and wandered pretty far afield at times, but my aging memory thinks the subject of live music was broached more than once. That's only natural since horns are the undisputed best choice for professional sound reinforcement.

JW, I think big horns get "live" better than any other kind of speaker I have heard.

What's your point, Jw? I choose to use horns because they ARE closer to live to my ear.

WOW ALL THIS TIME , ALL THESE THREADS .AND NO REFERENCE TO A LIVE MUSICAL EVENT

Bravo, Marty!

Hi Marty- Feels good, huh? Finally you've found out who you really are and you've been able to shed the yoke of peer pressure and the need for public acceptance. Congratulations!!!

Your bravery and your wonderful story of self-discovery can only serve to empower other closeted horn lovers everywhere. You've provided a strong example by coming out like this. Thanks for sharing.

Hello Marty!!