Why does better power = better sound?

Lacee-Well said!!! The power cord/conditioning/outlet debate should have been settled years ago.

I agree with you, Lacee. I'm a big believer in improving the quality of AC power. IME, it can have a wide range of positive effects on sound quality, including lower noise, larger dynamic range, greater resolution, more realistic instrument timbres, better imaging focus, etc.. The improvements can be summed up as greater "naturalism."

Bryon

IMHO, there is no denying that cleaner power = better sound, the question comes to how far one is willing to go. I went to a fellow audiophiles home to buy an amp and he was kind enough to show me his various systems. WOW!! The most incredible setup I've ever seen in my life!! It made my $100K system feel modest by comparison.

He had even gone to the trouble of installing commercial grade isolating transformers in his basement. These puppies weighed over 500 pounds each!! He claimed that after he installed these he could no longer hear any sonic differences between power cords. Hmmmm.

His analog setup is a story for a whole other thread.

500 pound isolation transformers? Awesome!!

I think what we’re doing here is redefining the meaning of the term “source component” from turntables/cartridges and CDP’s/DAC’s to power line conditioning components, and rightly so.

Reading this thread convinced me that if I wanted my system to “always” sound as good as… like at night… that I had to feed it cleaner power to begin with. Because my system already included a dedicated 20 amp circuit, Oyaide R-1 Receptacles with WPC-Z Faceplates, and last but certainly not least an Audience adeptResponse aR6 Power Conditioner, it’s not as if up to this point that I was l ignoring the power source.

Sooooooooooooo, I once again opened my wallet and purchased an Audience adeptResponse aR6-TS Power Conditioner. Those who have read my posts know that I don’t glorify or gush over the attributes of one piece of equipment over another, but the Audience aR6-TS is an exception.

With the Audience aR6-TS in my system, it’s as if I can walk through my speakers and literally shake hands with the musicians. If I ever get the opportunity to meet John McDonald, I’d give him a standing ovation.

"With the Audience aR6-TS in my system, it’s as if I can walk through my speakers and literally shake hands with the musicians. "

I have a lot of problems pulling the trigger on power upgrades in my case.

I know cleaner power can make a difference. I heard it clearly when I first plugged my gear (other than power amps) into a modest Monster power strip. The problem is my gear still sounds great and I can do the walkthrough the speakers trick pretty well as is.

To me its like a white dress shirt. Its either clean or it is not. There is at point at which it technically might be considered cleaner if say inspected under a microscope maybe, but practically, it is clean.

So my best estimate is my power is clean enough to sound perfectly good to me. I might hear a difference were it cleaner, but it is not so important to me that I gotta go out and upgrade now. I probably will at some point once I feel educated enough to make a good decision. Making a good decision becomes harder once you get into the realm of diminishing returns.

Hi Raks - Wow, an Audience aR6-TS. I'm envious. Just looking at that thing makes me drool.

I'd love to attend a shootout of top power conditioners like Audience, Shunyata, Synergistic Research, Tripoint, etc.. People have great things to say about all of them. What would make it even more interesting is if you could selectively control the quality of the power going to the conditioner. Ahh... It's a nice day dream. Anyway...

To me its like a white dress shirt. Its either clean or it is not. There is at point at which it technically might be considered cleaner if say inspected under a microscope maybe, but practically, it is clean.

I think there's some truth to this, Mapman. But it's worth mentioning that I've been surprised MANY times with the benefits of improving the quality of power reaching my system. What surprised me the most were improvements to things like instrument timbre. For a long time I thought of noise as being synonymous with the NOISE FLOOR. Because the noise floor of my system was already low, I concluded that I wouldn't benefit much from improving the quality of the power to the system. Boy was I wrong.

Recently I went on a mission to reduce RFI/EMI in my system, which included things like installing croy'd 10 gauge Romex for my dedicated line, trying yet another fancy outlet (my 4th), dressing cables with zip ties with obsessive compulsive attention to detail, and adding ferrites to EVERYTHING in the house that pollutes the power lines (and that's just a few of the things I did). The effects went far beyond simply reducing the noise floor. Everything improved: dynamics, coherence, harmonic accuracy, imaging.

You're probably already aware of most or all of that. But for me it was a real eye opener. No, an ear opener. :-)

Bryon

Oh yeah, and yesterday I measured the voltage of various AC lines around the house. They ranged from 118.3V to 121.2V and fluctuated significantly. But...

The dedicated line feeding the system: 120.0V

It was dead on. And there was no fluctuation beyond .1V (within the +/- of the meter) during the 60 seconds I measured it. A little confirmation that my efforts to improve power around here are paying off.

Bryon

"I'd love to attend a shootout of top power conditioners like Audience, Shunyata, Synergistic Research, Tripoint, etc.."

Yes, me too.

Ideally this would occur in my room and with my power.

I'd settle for a/b testing of any of these with my setup compared to what I currently use. I would expect to hear a difference and be able to make a value judgement accordingly.

A shootout elsewhere would still be interesting but harder for me to translate.

My goal would be to use a power conditioner to put the power issue to rest for me for good hopefully. That might well prove to be a good investment even if somewhat pricey!

Maybe if I had $30 or so left in my pocket afterwards I just might, MIGHT, consider a fancy fuse! But probably not. :-)

If someone in Baltimore/DC metro area wanted to play, I might be interested in a reciprocal trial of some of my more easily transported gear in their place as well sometime.

Byroncunningham... I've followed your journey with great interest.

Mapman... I fully understand what you mean about "pulling the trigger". For me it was a hard decision to buy the aR6-TS versus buying a better 2 channel amp to replace my 5 channel Theta Intrepid Amp. In this case, I made the right choice.

I was a skeptic. Moved up from a Shunyata to an Audience AR12 and was surprised at how much energy and dynamics and nuance came through. Much bigger difference than simple power cord or dedicated outlet upgrade (which also helps). I just bought the new Audience AR12-TSS. AMAZING.....it was like an immediate upgrade occurred on every component in my system, and that was after being used to the stock AR12 which was pretty special and beat other PLCs I had in my system....couldn't live without it (well OK I could live without it but wouldn't be as happy). Those folks at Audience have cracked the code I believe, and I'm a believer in power conditioning for sure, including plugging my amp (tube or solid state) into the AR12-TSS!

After reading the last few posts I am pleased that for the most part,there is an agreement that the qulaity of your sound can be improved if you do something to improve your power.

I see there are still a few satisfied with the way it sounds audiophiles,but the thing is most of us were perfectly satisfied with our sound also.

We only found out how much better it could get after we did some power tweeking.

That's the point to remember.

All systems will sound just fine, straight out of the box and into the wall.

They work and work well.

But just as some cave man discovered fire, he discovered cooked meat can be even better than raw, which was up to that point "good enough".

I think you get the drift.

We all know how good our systems are,what we don't know is how good our systems can get.

Unlocking the full potential of what I own has been more fullfilling than swapping out one component for the next hoping to find the last perfect piece and get off the merry go round, if that is what you want to do.

Some folks enjoy the ride and for them it's not always about the destination.

I was like that, some of my friends were like that.

After awhile you get to a point where everything starts to sound good enough, and the magic wears off.

So I have to ask,is this the point to end the search or to move in another direction?

I was fortunate to have a friend who was into power tweeking before me.
I heard the improvements, and followed suit.I moved in another direction, and focused my attention and money to power tweeks.

It didn't stop me from making further audio purchases,just more informed ones.I could more easily discerene that the new cd player was much better than the last for example.
Before power tweeking most cd players had started to sound the same.

When your system is getting decent power you can judge whether some components are worthy of purchase or they aren't.

Degraded power really does mirky up the waters and render most things good enough, that's great news for the fellow with the Thrift Shop power amp that sounds as good as any Pass amp ever did.

Ever wonder what kind of power systems these folks are using when they make such statements?

Then again, have they ever heard a Pass amp?

Most likely the answers are no power conditioning, and no expereince with a quality power amp or system.

Moving your system from good enough to great doesn't need to break the bank.

But you need to know how to recognize it when you hear it.

Something I'll save for another time and place ,perhaps.

well put lacee,after many years just using a power conditioner with everything plugged in,i got dedicated lines and 20 amp breakers installed.amazing differance...should have started with that right at the begining.Although the breakers dont have there own ground and panel its a hugh upgrade for now.Wow i have never heard this gear like that.(it was a lot cheaper than a new cable.)

Manufacturer disclaimer. Anyone in Florida who wants to audition Tripoint products is welcomed. Location Port St. Lucie, Florida.

Bryon,

Audio Grade Power Cords - AGPC

We investigated this interesting problem years ago and
found that the power cord(s) affect the 'ground-floor'
noise of the audio equipment being used.

The question is then how ?

By trying different home made power cords we could hear
differences in the music we listened to. We then made up
high impedance probe to see if there was any noise on the
power cords. The spectrum analyzer showed that there was noise
from 8 MHz to 13 MHz. We tested other power amps and cd-players
and found this same 'noise' on all tranformer power supplies.

This lead us to reconsider the power system', which is the wall socket,
the power cord and the equipment's power transformer.

Intuitively we all know that the wall socket's impedance/resistamce
is different from the power transformer's impedance/resistance.

So we decided to measure the wall sockets 'resistance'.

By using a salt-water-bath-load [old RF trick] we came up with the following
information: [see our AGPC white-paper for more details]

1.) Copper wire feed sockets have about .23 Ohms of impedance
2.) Aluminum wire feed sockets are about .45 Ohms of impedance.

This give us the source 'resistance'.

A power transformer 'resistance' that we used ranged from
11 Ohms to 14 Ohms. The ratio of the source with the transformer
is then from 50 to 58 to 1. This SWR of 50-58 at full wave lenght
would have a 90% reflection level.

The concurrent argument is that the power cord is too short !

Very true; compared to the miles at 60 Hz / 6 feet is very
insignificant,- almost-.

Looking at the power applied we know it is 60 cycles per second
or 120 pulses per second. The measured nosie is in the low MHz
range. Looking at the harmonic relationship of the 60/120 cycle/pulse
with the noise frequency we can see that they are related.
From 3MHz to about 30 MHz the pulsing energy is:[examples]
3 MHz : 60Hz 50k-1; 120pps 25k-1
12 MHz : 60Hz 200k-1; 120pps 100k-1
and are evenly harmonically related with the 'measured' 'noise'.

Then the next step is to determine how much noise is 'generated'
from this resistive mis-match.

By looking again at the spectrum analayzer we can see how much
noise-energy is being produced.

The graph on the analyzer showed a range of 250 - 375 mVs of noise.

Now what, how does this affect the audio signal.

This nosie is of very high frequncy energy and should be filterd easily
by the power supplies. But remember the low-side the -white-wire- of
the power cord and the -green- ground wire are tied to the equipment's
low side!

The Hot-wire and nosie are in a long-shaped 'capacitor' with the
white and green wire; the nosie can easily pass through this natural
'capacitor' since the 'noise' is of very high frequency.

The 'ground-plane' then has extra 'energy' of high frequencies that can
pass onto the solid state parts of the audio systems.
Transistor's control volatages are from about .4 v to .66 v and this low
level of voltages can easily be affected by this high 'Frequncy-Noise'.

With this information we can see why the CD-player is far more likely to be
affected by the 'power cord' than the power amplifier.

The power cord itself has an affect on the nose being generated due to
the changes in the differnt 'materials' used in their consruction.

- - -

Well hope this information will lead to better Fidelity!

Interesting post, Cjl; thanks!

The one issue I have with your analysis, though, is that it seems to imply that if the impedance looking back into the wall outlet matched the impedance looking into the AC input of the component, the high frequency noise you measured would not cause a problem, and (if I interpreted correctly) might not have been generated in the first place.

As you probably realize, RF reflections occur at each end of a transmission line, in response to arriving energy, as a result of a mismatch between the characteristic impedance of the transmission line and the impedance of what is connected at that end of the line. In the case of most or all power cords, characteristic impedance is undefined, poorly controlled, and very unlikely to match the impedance of either of the things it is connected to, at any given frequency. So RF reflections will occur regardless of the relation between the source and load impedances.

Also, it seems to me that reflections of noise frequencies are not necessarily bad in this situation. If a gross impedance mismatch at the AC input of the component causes incoming noise energy to reflect back toward the outlet, and re-reflections from the outlet to re-re-reflect from the component back toward the outlet, back and forth essentially ad infinitum (the energy gradually being dissipated in the power cord), that would seem preferable to the situation in which a perfect impedance match between the power cord and the component results in that energy being absorbed into the component.

Regards,
-- Al

My experience with cd players is that the further away you isolate them from your other gear the better your sound will be.

I have found that plugging the CD player all by itself into a Furman 15 amp balanced power conditioner sounds better than plugging it into the Hydra 8 and then into the Furman.

I plug my turntable and phono/pre into the Hydra 8 and then into the Furman, which goes into one half of a Shunyata power receptacle on a dedicated 20 amp line.

The other half of the receptacle feeds a hydra 2 to the tube mono servo amps that power the Acoustats.

I use Annaconada's all around, and HiFi supreme fuses.

I also use copper foil at all cable connections and blue tack to add some resonant damping at all electrical connections.

I would really like to try the Audience gear, or for that matter the PS power plant 5.

The power in my area is awful, 110 most of the time, and I'm 10 minutes from Niagara Falls !.

IMOP all power lines are outdated and long overdue for a makeover.

Perhaps things are just fine out in the sticks and the power is still pure, like the air, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I don't think there is a system around that wouldn't benefit from doing something to improve the power, no matter how elaborate or costly the system is or how good you think it is.

It is only as good as the power going to it.
Your gear is the slave to the power which is the master.

It doesn't work the other way around,no matter how great you think your gear is made.

Not only is there reflection noise and variable voltage/frequency, but power companies often send data through the power lines as well. There is a pile of noise on the line. Digital components tend to spew significant noise back into the power supply as well, particularly on the ground.
Now unless you are running a floating balanced output stage in your power amp your speakers are connected directly to the main grid on the negative side. The negative speaker terminal in your power amp is on the wall side of the mains transformer. The power amplifier is merely modulating the main power grid supply.
With regard to power cables, if your power lines are run in a loop through the house, then a power cable is seen as a a spur off that loop. My understanding is that if a power cable is too short then the pc will behave as if it is part of the loop, whereas if it is say 2m or more it will behave as a spur. There is a difference.

Dover, thanks for your comment.

I don't mean to be picky, but I think it would be better to refer to "reflected noise," rather than "reflection noise." The reason I make a point of saying that is that Cjl's post seemed to say that reflections caused by impedance mismatches PRODUCE noise, which is simply untrue. Reflections of noise frequencies that may be present can ALTER the effects of that noise on the system, although with little or no predictability. But impedance mismatches do not produce noise, and reflections do not occur unless there is something to reflect.

Now unless you are running a floating balanced output stage in your power amp your speakers are connected directly to the main grid on the negative side. The negative speaker terminal in your power amp is on the wall side of the mains transformer.

The negative speaker terminal will usually be connected to AC safety ground (and the amplifier chassis) through a low impedance, such as a low value resistor, or in some cases directly. The paths between AC safety ground and the primary side of the power transformer, in turn, will be via stray capacitance, especially within the transformer, and via the connection that exists between AC safety ground and AC neutral back at the electrical service panel.

In any event, the speaker will only respond to the instantaneous voltage DIFFERENCE that exists between the + and - output terminals of the amplifier. The noise levels that may be present in that difference, as a result of noise on the incoming AC, will be VASTLY lower than the noise on the incoming AC, assuming that the amplifier design is half-way decent. And the speaker, as well as our ears, will not be capable of responding to RF and digital noise frequencies anyway. The possible sonic consequences of high frequency noise on the AC line would result from intermodulation and other effects occurring in internal amplifier circuitry, that may end up affecting audible frequencies.

My understanding is that if a power cable is too short then the pc will behave as if it is part of the loop, whereas if it is say 2m or more it will behave as a spur. There is a difference.

There is no hard and fast dividing line. It depends on the frequency of each particular frequency component of the particular noise that is present, and (to a lesser degree) on the propagation velocity of the particular wiring. For the very high 8 to 13 MHz noise frequencies that were among those Cjl referred to, 2 meters is a reasonable rough rule-of-thumb approximation. Noise frequencies that are much lower would require a much longer cable length to behave as a spur.

Again, thanks for your comment, and my intention in responding is not to be picayune, and (as my earlier posts make clear) is not to deny that power cords can make a difference.

Best regards,
-- Al

Power cords finally are getting the respect they deserve.

I remember when anything more costly than the power cord that came in the box was snake oil, and only fools would part with their money to buy one.

It's interesting and educational to play around making your own power cords, or even just replacing the molded rubber ends with better ones.

When it comes to power cords, I've never experienced anything but differences in sound when you experiement with different construction and materials.

Why this is so, interests me, but I really am more concerned with the results and not the reasons.

There are a vast number of power cords in all types of configurations and cost points.

Lots of expensive ones and some at reasonable cost,especially the DIY efforts.

My advice for those who are sceptical or undecided about the merits of what a better(or different)power cord can do,need to try different power cords.

Borrow or have someone construct some for you and have a listen.

If you feel your stock power cords are just as good and can hear no differences,I won't tell you that you or your system has a problem.I can only say that I have heard the differences they can make, and some power products can bring out more details than others, which is a good or bad thing depending on where you sit on the fence.

You are you and I am me, we both listen for different reasons and perhaps analyze the sound in different ways.

I would speculate that the folks who are music lovers, first would be most content with the cords that come in the box, because they listen for different reasons than I do.

I was content for years to listen to a purist type system.

Stock cords,no power conditioning etc.

I was happy, I didn't think it could get any better.

It wasn't until I heard some of my music on a different system that I realized all was not right in paradise.

We tend to use our own system as a benchmark, and get very content with the sound it gives us, and we think of it as a "reference".

I've known some music lovers to prefer harmonically distorted systems over more accurate revealing ones.
Terms such as "warmth" come into play.

I don't feel that resolution is a bad thing.

I feel that you can have a highly resolving system and still be enthralled by how natural it sounds.

I think that there are enough natural distortions in the chain from recording to playback as there are,no need to add any more with bad power.

If you like your music wrapped up in a warm blanket because it's easier to listen to,that's fine.

But I know you can still get the warmth without the blanket effect.

Resolution doesn't have to equate with irritable, edgy sound.

For my money,what the extra resolution is revealling is the flaws elsewhere in the chain that need to be addressed but which seldom are,just because you feel certain things shouldn't make a difference.

The reason why so much good sounding gear is traded, is because it's never been given the chance to perform at it's optimum.It seems more reasonable to switch amps every three months than to try a better power cord.

How many times have we seen"spend your money where it will make the biggest difference"?
Hey spending money keeps the economy rolling and we need that,but wasteful spending is much better left for the politicians.

So which is wiser? Spending a few bucks on better power or spending large on new amps and speakers every few months?

How wise is it to use the same stock power cord you used for the last 20 years on every new amp you purchase?

My guess is that by doing so, you'll be looking for another power amp in the next month because the new one just doesn't sound any better than the last one, as all the hype led you to believe it would.Damn those reviewers,must have been bribed.

I've got some pretty old Acoustats with the tube servo amps.

How they sound today with good power cords and conditioning could be compared to more costly speaker/amp combinations and would still hold their own in light of modern "breakthroughs" in technology.At least that's how I hear it.
My previous speakers were quite a bit more money than the Acoustats, and they had some pretty expensive components inside them.
Leaving them and going back in time has not been a disappointment.

I can distinguish the merits of both speakers, they do not sound anything alike.Nor do any of my interconnects.
And good/bad recordings, vinyl or digital are represented as what they are.They are not sugar coated to all sound alike.

I find it odd that some would prefer their entire music collection to have the same "musical" sound.
Sorry, I'll take resolution over homoginized any day.
Better power will let you hear the differences,you have been warned!

Has anyone actually tried hard wiring a good 12 awg chord, bypassing the IEC of an amp or/? just to compare? I haven't seen any feed back regarding this comparison as yet. Maybe a decent shielded computer chord you can pick up for less than 20 bucks?

If you are really interested in the why, the Shunyata website may offer considerable scientific insight into the answer. .Apparently the development of the DTCD analyzer allowed Shunyata to develop it's new power conditioners.Suggested good reading for those with a scientific bent.

...Borrow or have someone construct some for you and have a listen...

Did that, heard nothing. A three foot piece of cord is not an intellegent attribute to sound in this block of the circuit. You might have crappy contact (IEC's are especially terrible)and the oversized contact thickness can firm them up some. I used good quality hospital grade plugs for better contact pressure and high grade IEC plugs. The 14 AWG wire going between the wall plug and the pre amp is more than plenty. The AC circuit to your electronics is no better than the WORST part, and in no way does it equal the best part. We sure like to think so, though.

Once the AC gets to the power supply block, THAT block better do it's job plain and simple. DC coming out is agnostic to what AC is coming in if a power supply is any where decent at all. And, a passive power cord's influence the AC line noise or current delivery is moot. The power supply block should take control.

DC power is DC power. It has to supply the current draw without VLD (voltage level deviation) and current sag while efficiently removing line noise. Anything past that is physically not there unless you plain decide that it is. DC is DC.

Lower voltage 110 that should be closer to 120? Yes, you can bump it to 120, but the current delivery will drop in relationship to the voltage increase. You can't get something for nothing. The watts delivered have to remain the same. Not to worry, the current is still amply high at 120 bumped from a 110 source with a power conditioner.

For AUDIO, once the power supply provides VLD absent DC of the right voltages, you're set. More current delivery than the circuit consumes is simply not going to help. Removing the magnetic fields can certainly be of help...but that's not the power supply per say, but stray magnetic field issues. Audio can't effectively shield magnetic fields as you need low permeability (stuff magnets stuck to) shields to isolate components. And, this is not very practicle. Magnetic fields are a squared field magnitude law, so MOVING them is easiest. Witness all the outboard power supplies. Foil and braids do nothing for 60 cycle hum. You need CMRR (common mode rejection ratio) using twisted leads and better yet into balanced inputs for the best passive(twisted pairs)and active (balanced inputs) effects. RFI noise is easily removed with a torrid (often called a CHOKE) around the power cord that looks like a load to RF and RF is converted into heat. This keeps noise INSIDE your equipment that it makes, and RFI noise OUTSIDE from getting in. It can't "remove" it, but you can STOP it's circuit path. Wide bandwidth amplifiers can clip trying to amplify RF as this is a hugely inefficient task. So yes, make sure RF is not a problem as the clipping will be superimposed and heard at audio levels.

Inky blackness in background noise is good thermal shot noise control (you tube people know this) and A/C leakage control and not the DC power coming in. DC can't make noise. A power cord can't fix a power supply.

Why is audio the only electronic discipline that can't be measured? "Sounds" funny to me.

PS - And, a car does NOT peform better and better with higher grade fuel. Premium gas is actually not higher grade at all if you count BTU capacity, it actually is WORSE! The increased compression ratio "premium" fuel allows over lesser octane fuels has to be positively offset with higher torque at lower RPMs in properly designed higher compression engines. If an engines is unchanged, you want to use the LOWEST octane grade you can to meet the highest level of performance. Drag racers all know this by heart.

My engine( Mercedes) requires high octane, so says the manufacturer.
I will not switch to regular just to save a few bucks at the pump,it could be more costly in the long run with engine repairs.

Rower you can disagree with me ,but I will also not compromise the sound of my system with low octane cables or power cordsjust to save a couple of bucks.

In both cases performance suffers.

I've spent countless hours making DIY cables and power cords and in the end,I've always preferred the ones I bought(Shunyata in my case, but there are others as good or better)to what I've made or the ones that came in the box.

You may love the way the Belden works with your system, but it and Mogami and Canare just didn't work for me.

So far Furutech wire has shown merits in a DIY power cord.

And for me on my system, it's very easy to hear the differeces between power cords, even when used on the SME TT.
Each power cord that I used placed it's own sonic signature on the lps that I played.
Some cables gave more bass weight but less midrange purity,while another power cord did the opposite.

If there is one thing that I've found out, it's that you should never trust the power supply of any piece of audio gear.They've all been compromised to a price point.

Try a HiFI Supreme fuse(unfortunately you most likely dismiis them)on any of you components and notice what it does.
No matter how good or bad your power supply is, the sound can be compromised if you skimp on addressing the power going into that supply.

It's been said many times, garbage in, garbage out.
But you have to be able to recognize garbage, not just accept it as the status quo.

Saddly that's what most folks do.

They place their gear on an altar and worship it as if it came from the audio gods, thinking that nothing can improve upon it's perfection.
Some would argue that if a component sounds better with an expensive power cord, dedicated line, fuse etc, then it was flawed or not well designed.

I would say that those folks who refuse to address power issues have never heard how good their systems really can sound.

Getting back to cars and gasoline,I can't remember reading any of the racing pros back in my youth,using low octane gasoline.

In truth,I always felt they mixed up the equivalent of jet fuel.

But I don't have experience in that field, so it's just speculation.

But I do have experience and it's ongoing(new Furutech GTX D G receptacle on the way).

And what that experience has taught me is that nothing will change when you change nothing.
Something always changes when you change something.

Everything has an effect on your sound.It never sounds the same after you've played around with stands, wires, room conditioning, power conditioning.

The mission is to find what is an improvement.You need to move forward and not backwards.

You shouldn't sacrifice one area of your sound (clarity) for the sake of more bass.

The change has to be positive across the board.

But of course this is all moot to those who feel their system is as good as it gets and can't be improved.

Personally, I've never known of the existance of such a system.

I certainly know I've never heard one.

Add a Furutech GTX D gold receptacle to the list of power products that provide better sound.

After reading about it's use in an upscale power conditioner review I thought I would give one a try.

It replaced a very good Shunyata RZ1, and bettered it in better resolution, smoothness and speed.There was also a reduction in graininess that I never knew was there.

Again, few people realize how much crud there is in the electrical path.
We just accept it as they way it is.

When some of it is eliminated,you realize how much it has been degrading the sound.

Now I am left wondering how much better my sound would be with the power conditioner that was reviewed.

I have a Mercedes too, and it is a high torque engine at low RPMS. To maximize low RPM torque you need high compression...but high octane fuel is then needed to offset the detonation. Do it right, and it's a benefit. Do it wrong and it's a waste of money. Premium in my Focus makes it work worse, in my Mercedes...better. Doing something can change things, but not always to the better just because it is "higher" octane (that means nothing till you use the science)or a higher price (it cost money to make fuel worse on a BTU factor).

DC energy has not grain, phase or sound.

View things as a component void of "price" making it good or bad. Garbage in can be expensive things, too.

NASA has an expensive ball point pen designed to work at any angle in weightless space (it made it to the consumer market afterwards). The Russian's? They used pencils.

We can have a, "throw money at it and it isn't my fault if it sounds bad" mentality with all this. Oh I listen, but DC is DC you guys. A power cord cannot change what's coming out of the wall to any degree a good power supply should not be able to address on it's own. Move the supply? Yes. The cord? No, haven't heard that. Been trying for 30 years to hear it.

We can also have a, "you can't hear quality till you do all this" mentality. Ummm...no. I don't buy anything till it clearly is better. So if that means I use 1694A with gold gas tight compression RCA's, so be it. That's my reference point and why not, it's affoprdabel, logical, and sounds good compared to all the high buck cords I've used, still.

Yes, I can hear speaker leads since this part of the system is so low an impedance and real vector load magnitude that seemingly small inductive and capacitive changes alter the load factor efficiency significantly. The science backs this up.

Not so much interconnects and power cords where things are much less sensitive once you get the basic cords right.

In the end, it isn't a "compromise" at all. It's better, or it isn't devoid of price. making it work right at the lowest posible price is the challenge in this hobby. You have to think, and shun peer pressure to match crowd.

There's no peer pressure, and it's not an exclusive club.
Anyone can join in.

It need not be expensive,there's a lot you can do yourself ,when in doubt hire a professional.

Vibrations can ruin your sound but can be easily overcome, buy the stuff or make it.

The room can be a real problem,DIY or buy, your choice.

Upgrading power products and working from the panel to your electronics is just as important and very often either overlooked or not given the respect it deserves,see above post.

If some folks can't hear the differences in wires or power cords etc, then I would speculate that there could be something wrong somewhere in the their listening room and that is impairing one's ability to discerne differences.

Then again, you do have to train your ears and passive listening isn't the order of the day.

Also, most improvements to one's sound are incremental.
It's always been my experience that the more you address the above scenarios,the better the system sounds over time, not night and day.

Addressing only one of audios pitfalls and you may not notice a change(new power cord sounds no better).
But address all or several and then you can notice differences more easily.

One other thing I would like to address is audio expectations.

Are you looking for a day and night difference in your sound by using that one new tweak(power cord)in an untreated, vibration prone,straight into the wall system?

My take is that there's a 50/50 chance that you won't find much of a difference, and that's saying nothing about one's hearing abilities.

Day and night differences or great expectations of total system transformations is a real problem in my book.Over exagerated claims of such transformations by the mere insertion of a upgraded fuse or receptacle can do as much harm as good, dependant of course into what kind of system they are used in.

Here's the picture-Reviewer AZ has a fully tweaked system, room tuning and great care has been given to improving the quality of power to his gear.
He inserts an upgraded fuse and hears an imediate improvement,he claims night and day difference.
How much of an improvement would he have heard if he ran stock ,no vibration control(cheap or no audio rack)no room treatment(room resonances and bounce obscure variations in tone and texture)and no power conditioning(huge amounts of leakage from all electrical devices in his home and on the grid or dirty power)?

I am thinking none or not enough to warrant the purchase of the tweak.Hense, it's all hype and snake oil.

One's expectations of gigantic improvement to the sound are dashed.
The reviewer must have been bribed or it's just more hype.

So in this instance I would have to say that yes the new power cord didn't make an improvement.

Only because too many issues weren't addressed and until they are, noticing differences in power cords ie will always be a bone of contention.

I can easily distinguish the differences in my system.
Not because I have golden ears and a goose that lays the golden eggs, but because I've addressed the issues that are an impediment to discerning subtle differences.

And believe me they are mostly subtle, not night and day differences.
If you are looking for new audio thrills, buy new speakers.

If you want to hear how good your system is and how it's sound can be improved, address the issues that need to be addresed.

I know I can offend some folks with opinions like this,but they come from close to 40 years of playing around with this hobby.

It has only been in the last 10 years that I addresed the issues, and have since reaped the rewards.

Not night and day, but subtle, incremental improvements that when combined have made more than a subtle improvement to my sound and my enjoyment of the music.

The first 30 years in this hobby I spent them as my mentor Matt once said as an "audio junkie looking for a new fix".

Jonesing for the big audio thrill is expensive.

All it requires is cash, and very little effort.
Spend the bucks, buy the big new speakers and two weeks later look for another pair after the honeymoon glow wears off.

Spend a little cash but make more of an effort to fix up the vibrations, room booms and electrical crud,and you begin to hear where the big lies are in this hobby.

I agree it's not price alone that determines the quality of our sound.
It's what we do to the systems we have that determines the quality of sound.

Do nothing and everything will sound the same.

I can agree to that,and I speak from personal experience.

I'll share a few anecdotes based on my experience in my system, for what they are worth:
first, I use very efficient horn speakers and it took some doing to get the line quiet. Not 60 hz hum exactly, but you could hear a sort of hash that was reduced through various power conditioners and grounding arrangements. I've been able to get this sorted without the need for power conditioning, but I'm sensitive to this. Does it raise the 'noise floor' or make music sound less clear and distinct coming through the system? I think so.
second, I've been experimenting with various rectifiers in the power supply of my phono stage. In exploring issues like voltage drop or 'tube sag,' (something I know guitarists talk about when they want to get a certain 'crunch' or distortion out of an amp), it seems like the tube that sounds better has less 'sag' ; this contributes to distortion. Conversely, the more robust rectifier sounds more effortless, although there may be trade offs elsewhere in the sound spectrum.
I just changed to a battery line stage. For some reason, there was a low level sizzle, which didn't make much sense. It went away after a large crew, with two bucket trucks, went to work on a transformer one up from mine on the line.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the big Equi=Tech wall panel works in my next room, for precisely the reason that AC power seems to determine a lot about how my system sounds.

I would be VERY curious to see the DC line voltage monitored with a differential scope that records the AC leakage of any sort (anything that is not DC) and see what it tells you all.

DC is DC, and what you think is coming in is 100% immaterial till you show it out the DC side of the supply. An HP differntial voltage meter is thousands of times more sensitive than the human ear. If your DC signal has noise in it, what is it and what magnitude? I really can't see where a 0 dB offset average over time is going to be "heard". This test measures anything that isn't pure DC to the set reference value (sag, spikes, ripple...you name it) and records it.

Most wall to electronics issues are crappy plugs that change contact resistance with heat due to poor contact pressure. All those expensive cords fix that, but what's in the middle is what people think they get! No, it's usually the plugs. An IEC plug is not even an 100% usable interface distance. The plug makes make spec "contact" till about two-third of the way in. A good hospital grade plug has spec contact pressure almost immediately. Go play around with them and see. My IEC plugs work loose on my equipment all the time. The hospital grade wall plug? Never.

Romex right from the wall to the transformer with twist lock caps? Way better than a poor retention IEC plug (I HATE those plugs!). A hospital grade wall outlet and plug on the back of your amp would be about three times the retention force of an IEC plug / socket. The continuity is all about the contact pressure with temporary sockets.

There are several essays or presentations on this Jim Brown website that apply to interference and chokes. recommended reading.

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm

I've put in 5 direct lines with 10 gauge romex and upgraded receptacles. The difference is amazing. I would like to the take the next step forward and was looking for recommendations. I have tried a couple of power conditioners, but for whatever positive affect they had, they also had drawbacks - less dynamics or a veil around the music. Great thread.

I am still waiting for the WA chips to arrive, 4 fuse, 2 transformer and one tonearm chip.

I'll post my impressions later.

What I can say is that anyone looking for a replacement receptacle,should try the Furutech GTX D - gold.

I have used several hospital Hubbels,an FIM, and Shunyata ZR1,and so far the Furutech is the one that tops them all.
I'm told it gets better with continued usuage.

I once owned a Sunfire true subwoofer, that despite it's dancing across the floor, did add extra bottom end slam to my CLS's when I had them.

What I didn't like was the edginess that I seemed to get thru my system when I used the Sunfire.

I have a few electrical engineer friends, and one brought over a quality Fluke and we measured the power on the line with the sub in and out of the system.

With the sub in, the chart was very ragged, clearly the sub was spewing all kinds of hash and noisey distortions back into the line, which the other components were being affected by.I am not saying the Sunfire was a flawed product it did what it was supoosed to do, but at a cost.It added more than just bass.

At that time I wasn't using dedicated lines,nor any power conditioning as I felt like others, that it was a waste of money.

The absence of distortions on the print out when the sub was unplugged and out of the system was a deal changer for me.

Further proof that bad power can equal bad sound, and that even some components are the culprits, never mind your neighbour with the basement full of electrical motor powered wood working tools.

My chips came in!

I wasn't expecting them to do much, and to be honest I need to play a few lps before I pass judgement on the tonearm/cart chip, but the combination of the fuse and transformer chips has made me very happy.

On the cd -Is A Woman- by Lambchop, the instruments/vocals were less bunched up and a few times I got almost a surround sound expereience from my 2 channel rig that I haven't experienced before.
So for me the transformer and fuse chips and the Furutech GTX receptacle have been successful upgrades.

...Further proof that bad power can equal bad sound, and that even some components are the culprits, never mind your neighbour with the basement full of electrical motor powered wood working tools...

It is? A power cord is a passive device and cannot prevent a weak power supplies back EMF into the power line unless it is a choke equipped cord, which is hardly an expensive addition. Copper and insulation can't do that.

Everything cable related gets better with "age" (except us, I guess) and nothing gets worse with age in audio. Astounding!

I've worked with dielectrics for 30 years and every one gets worse (treeing performance, withstand performance, T&E's you name it) with age.

A good dielectric should not be able to "align" a charge as that indicates it isn't pure. Treeing is a common phenomenone caused by impurities in a dielectric. You don't want your dielectric to store a localized charge. It's properties should be very dull and consistent.

Noise in the power-line means nothing. It's what come out of your power supply on the DC rails that matters. TAHT is the food your electronics eats. The power supply should have ripple and transient supression that correspond with common line noise. Measure your DC rail for 24 hours and THEN decide what's a problem.

Better yet, measure a swept A/C test tone at the amplifier output and sync it to a clock and measure the difference (flip the phase) and see the remainder and try to line it up with the DC output noise. I just see a lot of wishing and no testing. I don't think the guys that sell all those cables and such really want you to, either.

Looking at the power cord is like going to the doctor and having your butt examined for a cold. We're looking at the wrong end first. Why go downstream until you prove imperfection at the destination and work back from there? I just don't see any data that supports the supposition(s) on power cords or even line conditioners. Sure, they get rid of noise...but that doesn't mean the unit you plug-in didn't too, or to a degree that is sufficient to be inaudible. So of course they "work" but that still doen't mean they do anything.

I'd also like to see the results of the DC Vcc on a transistor bank varied with noise components and measure the A/C output distortion component. What does it take to be heard? Do a double blind random tests. This would be VERY interesting.

Rower, you seem to feel that noise being generated either from components(ie-Sunfire sub) or elsewhere has no effect on the sound coming from our system?

Maybe, I misinterpret what you are saying.

But the Fluke test was visible proof of distortions that I heard in my system when the sub was used.And it also provided visual proof of less distortions on the line when the sub was out of the system.My ears told me something was wrong.The Fluke provided proof.Before using the Fluke,I could only trust my ears.Were they lieing to me?
Was I imagining that the sound with the sub was more ragged and irritating?
Was I just looking for reasons to not use a sub?Actually except for the grit,I quite preffered the sound with the sub providing some extra kick in the regions that the CLS's didn't reach.

I had a couple of other epiphanies years previous(1987) when I upgraded the power cord to a pair Quad 63 with DIY, and when I bypassed speaker fuses with copper DIY plugs(Audio Critic) (1980?).
I could hear the improvement,so did the fellow who bought my Quads, as he requested the DIY power cords with the purchase.
I now feel much safer with HiFi Spreme /WA chipped fuses in my system.
Were my ears lieing to me all this time over the course of several decades?Are they lieing to me now when I say the WA chips have improved the Supremes?

I don't know, but they were younger ears back then,and the power was purer than it is today.There were less people and less electronic gadgets in those days.Maybe that helped me hear the differences in the power cord and the negative effect of a fuse in the system.

Would I be able to hear the effects of the fuses if I didn't do anything to the power to my gear?
I can't say,except that my old ears can hear the benefit of the chips.

To me, this is proof enough that if one does nothing to address the isuues of the power going into your gear, the problems won't just go away or improve and heal itself over time.IF anything, things will get worse.Does WiFi have an effect on our systems?
I don't know, but I do know we are being bombared with stuff that was never around back in the 1980's. And there's no relief from it, it will only intensify.

Most electronics are quite capable of letting you hear distortions,at least the ones that I have used.
That they don't mask the power line distortions isn't a flaw in my book.Noise cancelling with the addition of more noisy electronics in the chain isn't my recipe for great sound.

I want the elimination or lessening of the noise on the line.

My electronics are sensitive to noise, or maybe it's just that my ears are good at sorting out the noise from the music.

In any case, I can tell when something is right and something is wrong, and the Fluke test was the inspiration for me to take the power more seriously.That and a friend who got into power conditioning before I did.
My group of audio friends each heard an improvement to one fellow's sound but there was nothing new gear wise.

He told us all that he did was to run a couple of dedicated lines.
Needless to say we all did the same.

I would like to think that most manufacturer's address power regulation as best they can, and to a price point.One reason why the most expensive amps usually have the better power supplies.

I've never heard any of the power regenerators,but those who have say this can be a good way to address some issues, and some folks have other opinions about power regenerators, so I would agree that at this moment there is no one size fits all solution to curing the power problem.

There are many different approches to the problem, from many companies,the thing to not loose sight of is the fact that they are addressing the same thing.

Please spare me the rhetoric that these companies exist only because of the neurosis of folks like me.

I've done enogh experimenting with wires over the years to be able to hear the difference between solid core and stranded wire,copper, silver and combination and the importance of upgraded connectors. Yes, I do run one direct line straight from the panel to a Furman IT 1210. This powers my cd player.The furman's receptcle was cut off and the bare wires are attached directly(with those twist on connectors)to the dedicated line.Also a Shunyata RZ1 receptacle has replaced the shabby one in the Furman that my cd player's Shunyata power cord is plugged into.The fewer connections the better, so use the best ones you can afford.

Does this sound better than when the cd player was plugged straight into the wall with stock cord?
Yes it does.
Does that mean that my Esoteric E03 was a flawed design, ?
I don't think so,but it did benefit from power conditioning and tweaking the power going into it.
It was good enough to be able to let me hear the differnces.

Perhaps inferior gear would not benefit as much from the attention I paid to the power going into mine.
Or perhaps it would benefit even more?

Decent well set up system with decent gear should be able to let you hear differences between power cords, fuses, interconnects and speaker wire,and it should be as easy to hear these differences/improvements as it is to hear differences in one power amp to the next.

But then some folks still feel they all sound the same.

And if they've done nothing to improve the power to their systems,they are probably correct.

The thing about better power is that you won't hear it until you do something about it.

Everything sounds great, until you do something that makes the sound even better.

Getting better sound is all about the things you do, you have to actively participate.

You can watch from the sidelines or get into the game, your choice.

...Decent well set up system with decent gear should be able to let you hear differences between power cords, fuses, interconnects and speaker wire, and it should be as easy to hear these differences/improvements as it is to hear differences in one power amp to the next...

No, they shouldn't. A carpenter judge a roof by what gets into the house, not standing on the roof outside considering what "could" get into the house looking at the sky. It's irrelevant to what's going on inside the house. The weather is already taken into account with the selection of the roof / power supply.

The power supply is the "roof" and should provide a pure DC inside environment. People measure all this "stuff" outside and NEVER measure the DC rails from the "inside". The power block should be isolated from the signal block, too. If it isn't the "roof" had a hole in it from the start, the type of shingles used makes no difference at that point.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept "outside" metrics to determine what's going on inside my equipment, and neither should you. What comes OUT of the power block (leaks through your ceiling) is the final, and only, verdict to the performance of your gear. DC is DC. It has no sound except to allow something else to make a sound. If your supply rail is DC, and doesn't sag...case closed.

Now, if you have crappy power block to signal block isolation, that could be considered a fault since a "perfect" power supply would be isolation by design. But, perfect isolation can't be achieved with a power cord or external device(changing the weather outside doesn't change the roof!).

So, what we see are external power supplies. Magnetic stuff is squared law diminished with distance so distance is your friend if you have magnetic permeability shield problems inside the power supply block.

Could a unit need an external supply to sound better? Sure, but MEASURE where the effect is going to be seen. In this case, the power supply could be 100% fine except for magnetic emissions that show up at the AC signal blocks. So, move it, or redesign the isolation. A power cord upstream to the wall won't fix it.

So until such time that we can accurately look just past the DC power block feeding the AC circuit, it's REAL hard for me to "buy" anything outside a line conditioner that stabilizes the input AC voltage if you have a rowdy AC line. This is indeed a problem.

So yes, you have to get in the game and at the right place. This is electronics, not emotion. Music is the emotion.

Hearing conductors? No, what I hear is the capacitance and inductance determined by the dielectric composition of the cable. There is no evidence of common conductor differences at "DC". Like it or not, 20-20K is DC with regards to the electromagnetic spectrum and the laws physics. The signal is 100% diffusion coupled through the wire from 20-20K at audio.

In the 1980's, a company let us listen to four speaker cables with four different dielectric properties, same conductors through out. Then, we listened to ONE of the four designs but with four different conductors; solid copper, stranded copper, silver coated stranded copper, and silver coated solid copper. In a BLIND test, we could differentiate TWO of the four speaker cable dielectrics sound but NONE of the conductor designs using the same dielectric.

When the emperor is naked, I say so. The only sound that was heard with expensive conductors was the ring at the cash register.

Rower- I need you to clarify something and I'm not busting your chops in asking this: if the power supply in a component is less than perfect, wouldn't it be affected by the power that is delivered from the wall?
Thanks in advance.
(and no agenda on my part, just trying to reconcile some of your points with my experience too).

I agree Whart, I would like Rower's input on what electronic gear he has measured or owns that doesn't benefit from a better power conditioner or power cord or fuse for that matter.It must be perfect and cost a lot more than what I have used over the years.

It's been my experience that wallplugging is fine.
Run a dedicated line and it's better,how come?
Why did the properly designed power stage react to the dedicated line,shouldn't there be no difference?My bad power supplies?

Going back to different kinds of wire and their sonic signature,way back when, I found out that bypassing the fuse in some speakers and amps with a chunk of wire was better than the fuse.Thanks to Peter Aczel and the "old" Audio Critic mag.
The music tightened up and was less diffuse sounding.
And different types of wire produced different audible results, which blindfolded or not, you could hear the differences between stranded and solid core.

It was differences in treble (more clear with solid core)and bass ( more full bodied with stranded),take your pick, vanilla or chocolate.
Both choices are right or wrong, but what is perfect?

If the power supplies were perfect, then there should have been no distinctions between a stock fuse, a solid core DIY fuse or a stranded wire fuse.I guess I've spent big bucks on junk, such as Martin Logan CLS, Maggies, Classe, VTL, Levinson, Quads, and more.

Perhaps my choice of gear isn't as perfect as Rower's and I don't have the equipment to spec out my choices.I just have my ears,but then that's what I use to listen with.I guess all the folks who like the sound of the above gear and also bought it was because the gear sounded good to their ears and most never measured the stuff.
I guess we were duped by all we read about that stuff,because if it lets us hear differences in cables and power cords then it must be inferior stuff.

If there can be no differences in using a better power cord on these products, according to Rower, and yet some hear differnces, then surely the quality of the gear is suspect,am I correct?

My ears tell me what I like and what I don't like and if there is an improvement or not they'll let me know if a purchase is warranted or not.But they maybe lieing to me, or so I've been told.

All of audio is a lie, or an illusion of reality,just as there is no neutral or musical benchmark, all is up to the individual's ability to discerne subtle shadings and all is open to interpretation and experience with live and recorded music, and playback systems of all sripes.
Your neutral is my coloured,my difference is your no difference.
The most "neutral",( insert component) has to be compared to what came before it and will be compared to what comes after it, so how can neutral ever be defined.It's always in flux.

If my power supply is inferior because it let's me hear the differences between wires,then I want more of that inferiority.If a solid core wire takes me from "neutral" to more "neutral" than a stranded wire did,then I guess that what my eyes percieve as physical differences in construction, jives with what my ears are telling me.

If twisting wires compared to untwisted looks different and sounds different due to noise cancellation in the twisted wires,is my power supply not up to par?

I've been a musician for over 45 years and I've had to learn how to pick the music apart and differentiate pitch and tone, so perhaps I have trained my ears to pick up sound differences in my hifi gear that may not be as discernable to others as they are to myself.

I wonder if Rower's sound is different late at night than it is during peak demand hours?

Now that would be something worthy of measuring.

And it would be interesting to know if the measurements synced with what he was hearing.

Hearing no difference but measuring differences can mean two things,that his power supplies are indeed immune to power conditions or that he is just unable to hear differences.

A blindman could never know if the emperor was clothed or not, and the deaf man will never hear the ring of the register.

I am glad that I can hear the register ring,and until I can't, I'll keep it ringing for all the right reasons.

IME the more resolving the system the more noticeable any change will be. For kicks I tried some tweaks that I was using on my main system on my modest TV system and could not hear a difference. I thought that I would hear a difference but did not. I am guessing that there was some gross colorations obscuring any benefit/deficit that the tweak was imparting.

We all "want" something to change the sound, but what is important is what "needs" to happen in order to do so. The later is knowledge and the former is emotion. I don't like endless arguments. I like to argue forward.

Yes, you can say something sounds different but until you can define the attribute responsible for it, I'd be real careful to decide you "know" what it is.

Everyone like to touch and feel cords, fuses, ETC and think that since we can change these items, they are somehow outworldly responsible for what we hear. Why? They make up a very small part of the AC circuit that has several feet of PC board traces, NPN and PNP junctions an all sorts of resistor and capacitor signal traces. I would suggest that the "bottleneck" for the signal is far removed from a power cord (AC signal never even see's that circuit) or a fuse.

What effect does a NPN or PNP transistor have on the sound? We can't change it or really "see" it. The doped silicone is hardly esoteric in nature and yet we seem to feel it is of minor consequence to the sound. How about your PC board AC singal block traces? Those are far more critical to sound than 18 AWG unbalanced leads extrernal to your pre-amp or power amp.

A FLUKE test of AC line noise is NOT a measure of what the line noise does at the END of the DC block. Show me a test of the influence of the DC Vcc noise relative to the AC block and we'll talk. If we can't show what the "needs" are to hear what we "want" to happen (sound changes)are we learning?

Of interest,
...I wonder if Rower's sound is different late at night than it is during peak demand hours?...

There have been studies done that show or senses CHANGE with conditions. Our eyes improve with bright lighting and our ears are less monitored by the brain over what we see. At night it is the opposite. So what's really better late at night? The surroundings (dark) benefiting or senses, or do we want to decide it is AC line noise reduction? To be fair, I enjoy music in a dark room. But, I'm not going to say it's better late at night. I can make the basement pretty dark during the day. That mouse chewing inside my old apartment wall was always louder at night though!

Also...
...if the power supply in a component is less than perfect, wouldn't it be affected by the power that is delivered from the wall?...

You can make a pretty darn good power supply with three terminal regulators that have very low ripple with modest capacitor banks (we want to evaluate VOLTAGE chnges, not CURRENT draw). A power supply is pretty boreing in that the task is;
1.0 right DC level (regulation of voltage clamping).
2.0 no sag under current demand over time (capacitor banks).
3.0 isolation of magnetic fields from the AC circuit (crappy transformers).

If it does those three things it's working. A dumb transistor just needs pure DC potential. The three terminal regulator voltage clamping circuit is pretty robust to variations in line voltage as the DC voltage levels are WAY under the line voltage anyway. Get a three terminal regulator and make a power supply to prove it to yourself. Vary the AC from 100 to 120 and watch the three terminal regulation output DC value. Stayed the same right. The heat thrown off will change though, as that's how those HOT little buggers work when they regulate the voltage. Most "cheap" voltage regulators are less than 2.0% regulation like a LM340.

Fuses in speakers effecting the sound? Sure, a fuse is a device that works by HEATING and CHANGING physical attributes / electrical (it MELTS when it works!). Also, a fuse is the predominant component in a speaker "lead" relative to the speaker cable itself. Since they melt in order to work and...do you think they act the same just prior to melting than at room temperature? Silver fuses? Well, silver melts before copper (lower tmperature) so it's worse, not better all things being the same. You need to balance silvers lower resistance with its circular mil area to arrive at the same wattage at failure. To say one is better than another is to say you MATCHED the thermal resistive gradient to be the same. Otherwise, you are simply using a "big" fuse over a "small" fuse where the bigger fuse is changing less relative to the current drawn through it, and sounding better. A fuse that is moat linear resistance over a wider temperature range prior to melt is going to be better. I would guess, because I am, that a material that has a high change in resistance with temp will sound worse than a material that doesn't. And, the "sound" of the material is NOT what you hear, but the consistency of the resistance of that material. Where is this data?

I'm a real answer kind of guy. I just don't accept the audiophile acceptance of unproven sonic attributes. Sound different...sure, just don't pretend you "know" why when it can't be proven with measurement. You can't measure it you say? Than just STOP right there and say you don't know why.

That component on your shelf is FULL of real answers as to WHY it sounds like it does, even if WE don't know what they are. The designer sure does. I find it funny that a few cords and / or mystery dielectrics we set the unit on (or things on the unit itself) make outwardly big changes in the sound. Really? And the likes of Nelson Pass and their ilk are unaware that a few accessories make such huge changes in the sound?

My experience with three different preamps says no. The designer blows me away. No amount of prudent and cost effective designed cords made any one unit sound like the other. They are all good, but all very different. Inside those units lies the answers, too. Not outside.

Most "cheap" voltage regulators are less than 2.0% regulation like a LM340

If I remember correctly LM340 has 0.01% Vout/V line regulation and 0.3% Vout/I of load regulation. Perhaps you had in mind output voltage tolerance that is indeed 2% in the best case, but is completely irrelevant to operation of audio power supply. In addition power amps are mostly unregulated or have SMPS.

I mean the Vcc voltage supply rail regulation from the power supply. Audio components use a constant Vcc in many stages so it does indeed apply in small voltage transistor circuits. Not every stage is unregulated like a power amplifier (and even some of those are regulated). So yes, there are chips inside many components that feed on a constant supply voltage rail.

The higher the Vcc voltage (30 volts verses 5 volts), the better the dynamic range and the lower the noise. You can use RF isolation decoupling capacitor filters with resistors with higher voltage, too.

So you need enough DC Vcc to provide the voltage swing at the AC output with as good a dynamic range as you can get. A side benefit of higher Vcc seems to be better Vcc line filtering (all that line noise we're talking about).

That's about the best of my memory on op-amp circuits. Someone can probably explain it all in real easy to grasp terms that use them every day.

A good power supply should eliminate noise as you go through each block. Several small filter in series beat one big one every time and, they catch noise throughout the circuit.

I had a listen to one of my audio friend's sytem the other nite.

He was the fellow who got me started down the road of power cords and power conditioners and has always been a Shunyata fan boy.

He reported that replacing his top of the line Shunyata PC with top of the line Siltechs on his power amps into a Shunyata Talos was quite an improvement.

It did sound very good to me,but his system always sounds great.

After a couple of weeks with the new power receptacle from Furutech,the GTX D gold, I decided to try wallpluggin my Acoustat amps direct into this dedicated 20 amp line and omit the hydra 2 and it's 20 amp Annaconda power cord.

I will eat crow now, and say that this gives me better sound.

The reason for this I believe, is that the Acoustat tube servo amps also drive the panels and there are 5000 volts that need all the power they can get.
Whereas in the past, every conventional tube or solid state and D amp that I used needed the Hydra 2 combo to sound good in all previous systems.

In my case,the more direct power path to the amp/speaker the better the sound,( 20 amp dedicated line, to the Furutech receptacle to 2 Annaconda Helix power cords to 2 Acoustat tube servocharge amps).

I would have to add that the addition of the Furutech GTX on the dedicated 20 amp line was a revelation.

Why do some tubes sound better than others?
Possible answers are- design, build quality,materials used,
and others.
Similar answers for the following can apply.

Why do some tube circuits sound better than other ones?
Why do some solid state designs sound different?
Class A, A/B, D- do they sound different, or maybe no?

Why do some capacitors sound better than other ones?
Why spend the big bucks for something that's just another cog in the wheel?Why should they have a sonic signature?

Why do people tube roll or modify gear?

Why does one fuse sound different than another?

Why does vibration control or room resonances have any thing to do with how I enjoy my mega buck quality audio gear?It's the best there is, designed by a genius.
Impervious to the effects of the surroundings it placed in or the power it's fed.

Dedicated 20 amp line? Hogwash.My gear's doing just fine plugged into the sound bar on the same line as my furnace and fridge thank you very much.

I just turn out the lights and it sounds better.

It's not the light factor that was being referred to, so that gave me a chuckle and I'm not alone.

Late night listening, when the grid is used less( less demand in the wee hours of the morning 12 am 1, 2 am,has most oftern been the defining factor that systems sound better when there is less electricity being consummed in the homes of non audiophiles and less demand from industry and business.Hence bad power bad sound, so live with it or do something to improve it.

The music always sounded better to me later at nite.

Some folks would argue that a well designed product should sound good at anytime of the day.
Again, I state that I have never owned any gear so well designed.

Whether you turn out the lites or not, or whether you close your eyes or leave them open , late nite listening sounds better and it's not the absence of light that is the reason.It's the absence of grunge on the lines, and low voltage, two things that are present when listening at other times of the day.

There are some people who would never turn the lites off when listening.Depriving oneself the pleasure of gazing at the sheer beauty of those designer power amps would be a diservice to them and to the craftsman who made them so beautiful.

Fuses, who sees them?

People do seem to oogle big fat power cords though.
Is that why they sound better?

It's easy to ask for the measurable proof to back up the "improvemnts" some folks state.

Are dedicated lines just a figment of some folks imaginations?

Surely it's the same panel, same breaker and same electrical current going to the gear, which some folks say just can't be improved upon or altered . It's just electrical current afterall, look at all the miles it's travelled and thru all the wires it's travelled ,how can a dedicated line make an audible improvemnt?Why bother?

Yet I don't think I've seen one negative remark about dedicated lines.

I'll leave it to the myth busters to tell me why it can't make an audible difference.

I hear it, but I can't prove it.

Now on to the fuse.

Again how can it make difference?
Well I can't explain why and I don't have the gear to measure if it does or doesn't.

But I heard how a stock fuse can cripple the sound of most amps and fuse protected speakers that I owned.
So did Peter Aczel.
Magnepans and solid state and tube amps benefitted sonically when I used diy fuse substitutes.

Not advised,but the sound was better.
I did not have any bad luck, no meltdowns or failures gear wise, but I never left my gear on 24/7 either.

When the designer fuses came out they offered the sonics of no fuse but with the protection of a fuse.

I switched to the upgraded fuses, the best of both worlds.

I guess I am one of those folks who has to see it, or I should say, hear it for myself before I accept anyone's opinions one way or the other.

If I never tried dedicated lines and fuse alternatives,how would I have been able to give my impression of what they do?

Spouting a lot of techno babble is very impressive,but until one does the experiment for themselves, it's just speculation and conjecture based on scientific jargon.

That's as much a belief system as those who believe things do work but don't know why.

Or care less for that matter.

Hi Lacee - I too am a believer in dedicated lines and late night listening. I even use fancy fuses. And I agree that the most informed opinions are ones that include personal experience. Having said that, I readily acknowledge that plenty of folks have technical knowledge that I don't, and that many of my opinions are under-informed.

Above all else I am a fallibilist, though I don't always act like it. People can be wrong about anything, including experts. IMO, expertise is something that should be respected and challenged in roughly equal measure. And so I tend to listen to both Skeptics and Believers.

FWIW.

Bryon

Hi Bryon - your comments here on expertise reminds me of the final film of Orson Welles, F is for Fake. If you haven't seen it, you need to. I think you would really enjoy it, and it is very much on your topic.

Hi Learsfool - I haven't seen F is for Fake, but I know what it's about and it sounds interesting. I will put it on my Netflix list. Thanks! :-)

Bryon

20 amps times 120 volts is 2400 watts at 100% efficiency. Take that time maybe 85% efficiency per pass through device (power conditioners and power supply) and you get a more realistic 2400 *.85 *.85 = 1734 watts (1300 watts with a 15 amp circuit).

That's for everything sharing that outlet. Most systems can live with that just fine.

Short of CLASS D amps, that have real issues with RF noise (and a bunch of other bad stuff in wide-band use)if not handled properly, good capacitor filtered power supplies are pretty quiet.

I still haven't seen any results on Vcc DC bias variation on "sound" and fundamentally this is really what all that upstream stuff is supposed to improve. OK, people "say" when the Vcc bias changes, imaging and dynamics suffers.

That's one of the general "improvement" of class A amps, the engine is at red-line all the time so it's ready to go NOW! But at an efficiency cost. A/B amps have to accelerate up to speed, slowing transient responses. High bias A/B amps cheat a little and hold the throttle in class A for 15-30 watts. Other improvement is distortion which is inversely related to bias current and of course, no PNP to NPN notch distortion to manage.

Some of the "power" improvements I'll try to hear with a PLINIUS SA-103 amplifier verses my ODYSSEY KISMET MONO low bias A/B amplifiers. This, with the units AC line noise defended by the on board power supply of each amplifier.

To say a power supply is inadequate is somewhat intriging. The caps recharge at the RC time constant of the circuit, which is pretty fast and with full voltage charge from ZERO in five or six time constants. If a big drum beat pulls down the supply, then the only drum beat that will sound good is the first one you hear! The time even between drum hits is PLENTY of time for the caps to recharge. There is a measurable supply sag that can be designed for.

As far as caps needing to sit for "days" to charge fully? This sounds like a fairy tale as again, music is happening faster than that, and the power supply of a good amps seems to manage without waiting days between bass transients or high intermittent current draw. A more continuous draw? Well, I guess your amps don't sound good anymore until you leave and come back in a day? Amps are tested at a steady state 3/4 load cycle and then swept to full power to make sure long duration operation is decent.

The data says power supplies work on a much FASTER charge cycle than "days" or even seconds. The Vcc sag is an indicator of this attribute as that's where the rubber hits the transistors. No supply can never sag, so it's the amount (dips) and character (spikes) that is in question to fidelity.

I recently replaced the IEC inputs on my amps and the RCA inputs with the best of each from Furutech.
I purchased the Rhodium plating, only because there are a lot of tubes in my system and it doesn't need any more "warmth".

What I am now enjoying is more transparency than before.

The more robust Furutech components must be better at passing the electronic signal than the more modest older units.

Nothingelse was changed in the system.

People who know my system's sound were impressed by the improvement in clarity,and it wasn't in a dark room late at nite.

My non technical brain tells me that the better parts passed the elctrical signal better than the old parts, and that when the electrical signal is more clear so is the sound.

Hence, for me, whatever you do to better the power to your system, the better it will sound.

The other thing that my non tech brain tells me is that so far I've nothing to fault with Furutech replacement parts.

They provide the reasons why their products are supposed to sound better,for those who need the re-assuremnt.

I have no affiliation with Furutech and I don't work in the industry and have nothing to gain.

Nor do I have any other parts to compare them to other than the older, more modest receptacles that they replaced.

The older parts were not defective in any way, the system had no noise or hum issues.Life was good.

It's just better now.