Why According to some Turntable extremists Pitch Control and Direct Drive is Sacrilege?
Why shouldnt perfect direct drive speed and pitch control be part of an Audiophile turntable system. Not having pitch control is like missing a stereo mono switch. Every high end turntable should have pitch control.
Dear @has2be : Normally before I write any post to give an answer/opinion to any Agoner first than all I make a fast research to know whit whom I'm talking: is a troller and audiophile or a music lover or " every thing ". I try to know his answers in other threads and his own audio system and many other things.
You already gave very good answers to than person whom not only to you but to any one he just " don't listen " and does not cares to listen any one even that he never have tigth facts or gave explanations other that " numbers/specs " with out explaining those " numbers " means and how affects our listening experiences, all the time bla, bla bla, etc. and nothing more, he owns a true mediocre home audio systems where he can's be aware almost of nothing really that can help to any one of us but he always posts " thousands of pictures " that per sè explain nothing. He is more a very good photographer and web navegatotor than a true expert audiophile or music lover but the Agoners when looks those pictures/links and his bla, bla, bla thinks he is an " expert ": what a dissapoint about. His knowledge levels are really low.
He thinks is an expert on all audio/music subjects when it's not and far away from there, even never talks about MUSIC only hardware a mediocre hardware.
Here it's his fabulous system that he thinks is a wide high resolution one and I'm not trying to diminsh it I only try to put things in the rigth " perspective " to understand that man attitude :
the system has many weaks but one terrible are those metal mats in the TTs. It's the worst place to use metal and this man is using in both TTs and he is extremely satisfied with. Metal is an enemy in analog but in direct contact with the LP is the worst one place. In other threads I posted the why's about and I don't will post again here, is only an example of what is wrong ( between several other " things ". ).
A good quality performance audio system depends not of money but first than all to knowledge levels to builded. There exist not the rigth knowledge levls.
"""
Because everything sound dynamic with high efficient speakers, better with full range paper drivers """
that/his statement speaks very clear and is a true fact that proves all what I posted before. That statement is totally ABSURD for say the least and makes no sense at all.
When some one like that man thinks that our listening experiences sound dynamic through " efficient speakers " means that persons understand nothing about dynamic sound and where really belongs that " sound dynamic ".
Ribbons normally are non-efficieny/low sensitivity speakers and the sound dynamic can be just glorious, same with electrostatic speakers or any other of speakers design type and certainly that the drivers does not needs to be " full range paper drivers " . Exist " thousands of speakers where drivers are builded with differents materials than paper and that are just extraordinary as no one single paper driver speakers and certainly not a full range driver that per sè has a very high FIM distortion.
Btw, I listened to those Zu audio spekers that are designed by a truly " idiosincratic " designer and the speakers performs in the same way, not only that the overall idiosyncratic development goes deep through the speakers cables and the amp that the designer choosed: First Watt class D one. I heard with the FW and with a XA Pass amps, idiosyncratic as it's the XA makes a better job with out doubt.
His posts are full of no sense statements or with very knowledge levels on almost any audio/music subjects.
I can go on and on with several examples as the one about " efficinte " but it's totally useless because not only he just is not willing to learn but he in reality can't learn because his full human been limitations and in the other side it does not helps to any one but to know whom relly he is.
It certainly makes it less enjoyable and inviting when someone refuses to allow others to express their own opinions or discredits them . More importantly , passing along some knowledge along the way and learning some from those different experiences others have to pass on often gets lost along the way. One thing that most open minded and knowledgeable people learn quickly is there are not just many choices but also very few hard rules with many exceptions or in general as they say. Some folks just can't escape the personal bias of ownership even in the face of reality that they aren't much past mid fidelity in the grand scheme of all things audio. The guy who knows what he has , appreciates it , maximizes it's performance in his budget and to his preference while still respecting and appreciating the choices and opinions of others is always, always the smarter man and the better to learn and learn from. The ones who refuse to see past their own biases and belittle anyone in difference to their opinions often just spew general knowledge about their audio pieces while critisizing others audio they most times no nothing first hand about. There is a lot of experience and knowledgeable guys on this forum,but I wonder how many less the argumentative narrow views of a few have caused to no longer be as active. Keep spinning them and enjoy the music. Cheers...
Mid price belt drive turntables (like Nottingham Spacedeck) can sound generally OK. But what is mostly annoying for me, they broke a rhythm of music. For simple pop music it is not too important. Even there are some kind of jazz and classical music that that rhythm accuracy doesn't make a big difference too. But a music with a fine sense of
rhythm like most of classical piano music is fallen in parts (if it played on belt drive turntable). So, for people who like this kind of music or sensitive to PRAT, using a top vintage DD turntable seems to be a good idea. My experience shows that good and not expansive idler drive TT, like Lenco, can do a similar job.
The funny thing is a lot of the cost no object high end TT’s are heavy platter belt drives. Yes in the low and mid-fi, good deal for the money TT’s the direct drives are strongly represented. But who talked about such trivial limitations?
Some vintage DD are not mid-low END. For example, in 70x EMT950 costed 15000DM. It is around $23000 today. Studios and radio station bought EMT950 and not moron audiophiles fooled by advertising. These dumy audiophiles don’t want to see around. They don’t go to listen a live music.They don’t want to start thinking out of box. They buy tower speakers with 85dB sensitivity and 20K$+ price tug with 1000 Watt horrible sounded transistor amplifiers. But everybody has his own way...
P.S. My fried musician, flute soloist, when he heared EMT950 (at his friend home), very fast rid off of his Sota and run to buy EMT950.
And a few very knowledgeable audiophiles that own several of the top TT’s including EMT 950, prefer their heavy belt drive TT’s. Are they being fooled by advertising after owning and keeping these different tables, letting their daily preferences rule ? I don’t think they are all flute players but we all have our preferences, what you do at home is certainly up to you.
All modern Hi-End TT producers are small garage companies. They don't have enough money and professional R&D to design and build DD turntables. Relatively big Japanese producers like Audio-Technica and Technics can afford to build DD turntables.
The question is: How much will cost the belt drive turntable which outperforms EMT950?
Yes I know. There are great belt drive TTs, like, Micro Seiki 5000, 8000, 3 motor Clear Audio, and others... In any case, all people who use these best belt drive turntables listen records done using lacquer cutting produced by DD machine. :-)
It also depends from a preferences of a person. There are a number of famous audiophile who can afford almost anything, but they prefer modified Garrard 301.
And Techdas and Micro Seiki before that are unable to build DD tables ? You make me laugh! Even VPI builds DD tables, when they want to. All design can yield excellent results when implemented correctly. You seem to be focused primarily on what you can afford and have heard in your probably mid priced system.
There is a lot of experience and knowledgeable guys on this forum,but I
wonder how many less the argumentative narrow views of a few have caused
to no longer be as active.
Just this!
A lot is the answer in only the last couple of years to boot!
Most any company , big or small producing turntables could produce a direct drive table if they chose . Most companies don't produce any motors themselves at all and outsource and use the expertise of the manufacturer to build to suit. Just because technics can do it in house don't think outsourcing couldn't find the same results. Its scary how narrow some people's views of business and ability are. The only question is...would you buy it at a cost like the 20 k the new technics is or 10 k and still need to build a plinth and arm.... So if your too cheap to buy that and opt for the 1000 dollar 1970's DD. ....why would anyone bother to invest what won't sell....that's the question not that they can't do it...
Dear @alexberger : As the Sp10MK2 the EMT 950 was designed for studio/radio stations of those old times and designed to fulfill the studio/radio stations needs.
One of those needs was that the TTs been ready for a roughly/hard 7/24 kind of work with out almost no maintenance and with very fast start/stop function.
But those " machines " truly fulfill an audiophile needs ? certainly not.
All SP10MK2 owners ( including me. ) already made several changes in those TTs because were not designed thinking in home audio systems.
In the case of the 950 even its specs are not something extraordinary but very similar to a mid or low-fi belt drive units with speed stbility around +,- 0.1%, w&f 0.05% and around 70db in signl to noise rtio. The Technics has better specs but specs does not says the whole " history ". Additional to that the 959 included tonearm is a balanced design where the VTF set through a "ringing/resonant " spring tension that at studio/radio stations no one cares about because in that kind of job they were not looking for the penultimate quality listening level performance that it is what a true expert audiophile is looking for.
I owned two true audiophile tonearms balanced designs that did not comes with that normal string tension mechanism: the MS MAX 282 and the Lustre GST 801, both true audiophile items designed for the home audio system needs.
I posted before that a good audio system set up/build mainly belongs to the audiophile/owner knowledge levels and skills before money and of course that if that audiophile has the rigth knowledge levels and skills along more money then he can improve the overall home/room audio system quality performance.
I own both drive TT designs and for me rhythm is as important as for you and I can tell you that with DD or BD I achieve a very good rhythm levels.
That characteristic does not belongs in exclusive to any TT drive system and depends on each one of us quality level set up.
I had Nottingham Analog Specedeck for 8 year and I have EMT 948 since 2011.The difference in sound quality is huge for EMT.
I have a friend who had: EMT 948, MicroSeiki belt drive and Technicks SP10mk2. He liked EMT and MicroSeiki, but didn’t like Technicks.
Other my friend a flute soloist sold his Sota belt drive for EMT950.
So called, home market equipment made today in garage is designed by mediocre engineers, who don’t have enough education and talent to work in Hi-Tech. In 30x-70x the best engineers worked in audio industry, like today in Hi-Tech. Studer, EMT, Klangfilm professional audio equipment is state of art of German engineering and better than any equipment designed and made in Japan.
Dear @alexberger : I had no " true " experiences qith your Notthingham TT but I listened the EMT 939 and 950 a studio room. I can say nothing to die for, just another TT.
Btw, 948 at least in specs is even worst than the 950, at least in w&f with 0.75%
Now, as I said all depends of the room/system quality level whole set up.
In the other way your firends references are only that references of what kind of " distortions " like more.
EMT as Technics or Denon are very well regarded TTs that were designed for radio stations/broadcasting that between other things works inside limited frequency range and in those old times the radio stations whole equipment was of " bad " quality " performance against 20 years latter on.
That EMT tonearm only degrades the cartridge signal is not up to the task of the quality level a true expert audiophile is asking for and neither the TT it self.
Your flute friend could be a reference if he is a true expert audiophile that understand the room/system limitations. Additional a musician normally " suffer " of higher ears damages that the ones are not musicians. Nort only for the high SPL he was and is exposed but that frequency range of the flute instrument that sooner or latter makes a heavy ears listening degradation.
What I like or you like is our own privilege and it’s not under questioning but what we like does not means we are " rigth " because we can be wrong !
""" home market equipment made today in garage is designed by mediocre engineers, who don’t have enough education and talent to work in Hi-Tech . """
very harsh statement for say the least.
I will give you some examples that are facts that your statement is untrue:
remember Goldmund smal company? well was founded by physics students ia a " garage " and after a while they put in the market an even today statement TT item: the Goldmund Reference. Even today very hard to beat and certainly not by EMT vintage units.
Not many years ago A.payor marketed another today statement TT: the Rockport Sirius that you or me only can dream to own it. Well, was another kind of " garage " item.
Another is the today great TT designed by @jtinn : NVS by Wave Kinetics that according your explanation is a " garage " item.
By coincidence @mikelavigne owned the Rockpot unit and owns the NVS and I hope he can has the time to chime about. I can't be sure rigth now but if I remember @mikelavigne owned the Goldmund Reference too ! ?
I’m totally sure that no one of those designers are " mediocre " engineers as you posted.
""" professional audio equipment is state of art of German engineering and better than any equipment designed and made in Japan . ""
state of the art engennering does not belongs to any country in exclusive way.
In the elctronics industry Matushita is the biggest tech group in the world and it’s a japanese enterprise where Technics belongs.
The Technics EPA 100MK2 tonearm is still today state of the art piece of enginnering with ( even today tonearm designs. ) uniques in the whole audio analog industry like the build material used: Boron, like the unique damping mechanism, like that very low bearing friction of lower than 5mg when in your beloved EMT tonearm goes to 50mg: is this one your state of the art engineering?
very harsh statements you posted with no single foundation or facts that serve as foundation of it.
I respect your opinion but totally disagree.
Btw, do you know that if I.Newton does not existed E=mc2 does not existed neither?
We live in an universal world.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
PS.: What do you think of this japanese TT design? do you think can compete with your germany items or even better which german TT do you thik outperforms it and why?:
Hi @rauliruegas , Yes, I know that EMT tonearms are not a "state of art" as well their phonostages both tube and transistors. But their TT (except models: 928 and 938) and cartridges are really very good. EMT950 and EMT948 where on the same market at the same time with Technics SP10mk2. Why studios and radio stations that have enough money bought EMT that where 2 times more expansive? Similar, why studios who have enough money bought Studer tape recorders and not Tascam and Otari? You can’t judge these turntables by datasheet measurement. These measurements can be done different. Measurements in audio is a very complicated topic. I know many people (who had many different and expansive Hi-End turntables) use and like idler drive and DD EMT turntables.
Bottom line, we all have a different tests.
Despite I listen mostly jazz and classical music, for my test, even best belt drive TTs sound too soft and too polite. If I had extra money I would go for nice idler drive like modified Garrard 301 or EMT 930 and I would leave my EMT948 as the second TT.
Every year I go to Montreal Audio Fest. I also heard "main stream" Hi-End systems in dealer show rooms and at people home. I also had Dynaudio speakers and Plinius integrated amplifier and I haply rid of from this stuff. I can differently say, "main stream" Hi-End like: Dynaudio, Focal, B&W, Wilson Audio, Krell, Mark Levinson, Plinius ... - is not my cup of tee. I like good hi-sensitive speakers and I like speakers with a good tone, like: Harbeth, Spendor Clasics, Qued ESL57.
Alex. They bought the EMT 950 because it ran backwards. It is still a crappy TT for audiophile use. I think you meant tastes. It is not a matter of taste. A good turntable should do nothing but spin records. No rumble, no wow or flutter and no sound of its own. Every time I hear about a turntable sounding like this or that my eyes cross. A turntable should sound like nothing. The only thing you should be listening to is the cartridge. There is a reason that the best turntables made use belt drive. It is the straightest path to the right result. It allows you to isolate the bearing as a separate entity and design it for the lowest rumble. As soon as you put a motor around it things get much more complicated. Having a bunch of electromagnetic stuff going on under your cartridge is never a good idea. The Japanese are artists at making a simple proposal as complicated as possible. How many buttons on that remote do you actually use? They are wonderful at making small intricate things like cameras but when it comes to mundane tasks like spinning a record simplest is usually best. To those guys who like old turntables like TD 124s or the Garrards, anything with an idler wheel, you need to improve the bass response of your systems. I am all for nostalgia but those turntables rumble like express trains. They are the reason belt drive came into being. They had no way of changing speed without a stepped pulley. Now we can do it electronically so there is absolutely no reason to add another bearing and a rubber wheel that will never stay round. They are Tim Burton's idea of what a turntable should be. They are museum pieces. Alex, just because you like Qued ESL57s I'll have to admit you have good taste in speakers.
You never have listened EMT950 or EMT948 in you live. How can you judge it? I know that most of EMT collectors who have in their collection EMT927 (the best idler drive turntable ever built) prefer sound of EMT950. Because 950 is more accurate.
ALL vinyl record lacquers disc (from 70x up today) are cut by DD turntable machines. Older lacquer where cut by worm-gear turntable machines. So, in any case you listen hated by you DD when you listen you records :-)
I know there are a very few EMT turntable in North America. As result, US and Canadian audiophile don’t have any idea about these turntables sound. All their experience base on guesses and fairy tails. But, on other hand, EMT turntable are very popular in Europe, Japan and Russia. And they are very appreciated in these countries.
The EMT 950 is a fantastic Turntable - I own one - among dozens of other tables, in use are only DD tables. As far as speed accuracy nothing really comes close to the EMT 950 - the Denon DP80 and the DN 308 perhaps. Heres a small video of the speed accuracy of the EMT950 - I used a RoadRunner Tachometer for this one.
and this one I have posted before - a GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DP80 Professional - donor to this is the Denon DP80. Shows the astonishing speed accuracy of the DP80 over an entire album side - the wall the dot from the timeline is projected on is 26 feet away from the turntable center.
Dear @alexberger : """
Why studios and radio stations that have enough money bought EMT that where 2 times more expansive? """
in reality that's unimportant because at the end the EMT design still is a broadcasting design to fulfill the broadcasting needs but certainly not for the expert audiophiles/music lovers.
Now, I'm not in love with the Technics SP10MK2 that was designed to a price point for broadcasting job not for audiophiles where it needs a lot of tweaks to perfoms decent.
But exist other broadcasting TT design coming from Denon the DP-100 and its studio version is way more expensive than the Technics and maybe that the EMT and several radio stations bougth it. But the DP 100 home version is better unit that any of the Technics including the MK3 and does not needs any tweak.
As I told you I had the opportunity to listen to two different EMT models and I already posted that specs can't tell us the whole history. I'm not judging by specs, not this time.
DD/idler drive have not the exclusive for a rigth quality level performance. Rockport made DD and belt drive and Goldmund was belt drive but the today NVS is DD but the MS statement SZ-1 is belt drive and I know and agoner that own it and is the Lyra cartridge designer @jcarr and he can put true " ligth " on this outstanding MS unit.
In the other side DD designs are used/using in the cutting michenes because it needs very high torque and speed stability but this kind of work is way different of what we audiophiles need at home. You or me or any one do not need that very high torque.
You are entilted with your EMT but that does not means it's a top audiophile TT because it's not, it's what you like and that's all.
What matters is to listen to a wide variety of turntables of all types, carefully and for extended periods of time in one's own home on one's own carefully selected system, and thereby to decide what sounds best to one's own ears. That process in reality never ends. If you have honestly taken on that task, then there are no explanations necessary. And this thread is a waste of time, although it is a credit to Vinnie, who definitely knows how to start an argument and now must be laughing his ass off.
For every pro and con in favor of one drive method, there is a complementary pro and con for either of the others. The matter cannot and should not be expected to reach absolute conclusions and certainly not through verbal debate. If you think you own the one and only absolute truth, you've missed the point.
That will only tell you which of those particular 3 you like best. It won't give you an answer that is broadly applicable overall, because there is no way to do that in a finite lifespan. That was my main point. Be sure to keep tonearm and cartridge constant, if at all possible.
@uberwaltz im a big lenco fan so carry on with the lenco crusade. I beleive 75 is the best turntable ever made id put it up against emt sota vpi linn or technics or any overrated overcost piece of junk garage made belt driven obscure motor pump pulling toothfloss belt turntable.
Well vinny55, that certainly explains why all the very best turntables are belt driven and why in spite of all these major developments in TT design the very vast majority of us still prefer belt driven tables. I suggest all you idler wheel guys get yourselves a subwoofer array that is flat to 18 Hz and I guarantee your love affair with that antiquated design will end in a hurry.
A highly tweaked Lenco, including plinth, will surprise you, Mijo. That's why there is a whole website devoted to the L75/L78 and other Lenco turntables ("Lenco Heaven") and why there are several satellite businesses that have successfully grown up around the idea of getting the most out of a Lenco. In my experience, Lenco is way up there in terms of bang for the buck. But you have to get rid of the stock plinth and either get rid of the mounting template or strengthen it considerably. Add a Phoenix Engineering speed control system, and you've really got something.
So called, home market equipment made today in garage is designed by
mediocre engineers, who don’t have enough education and talent to work
in Hi-Tech.
Except for those that have degrees?? Obviously this statement is false.
ALL vinyl record lacquers disc (from 70x up today) are cut by DD
turntable machines. Older lacquer where cut by worm-gear turntable
machines.
This statement is also false. Many LPs were cut in the 70s and 80s (and today) on Scully lathes. There are a good number of Scullys still in service (I have one FWIW). It was the Technics SP10 MkIII that was used for LP mastering, not the MkII; the latter has insufficient torque.
After all my years in this hobby, I have not seen such a complete package and so much for your hard earned money as you get with the Technics 1200G and GR. You will have to spend many times more to get the performance. If you switch the arm out, it just gets better but I think for most including myself the stock magnesium arm is very good. I could never go back to belt drive. I think you would have to spend tens of thousands to get the performance without the coloration of belt drives. The idlers are very good as well and I can see how owners would have a hard times parting with them, but for now I am pretty content.
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