Generalization and over zealous ownership biases. ....
Two of the absolute worst criteria to choose most audio, but especially turntables , and the arms and cartridges needed to complete the job.
Many think direct drive is the " only " choice for best of in a field with exceptional belt and idler drives when executed properly are preferred by many. If a direct drive sounds brittle to one persons ears and pleasing to another......it’s why we have choices for our own tastes, and not just for the zealots of one drive choice. They ALL, have strengths and inherent weekness’s and all are not equal in their own camps or against each other.
Direct drive and the claim of perfect pitch with all the faults some hear and others are bias blind to ignore , is just a preference. Like belt drives some more accurate than some realize and others that are not as accurate but have executed all other perameters to remove self noise. The .025 wow and flutter of a good direct drive , on the surface is impressive but it’s just one thing of many that harms playback. A good belt drive with .05 wow and flutter , as much as some direct drive and idler zealots scream, will be unoticed by most as a problem at all.
Thats about 16 thousands of an rpm off or .6 seconds off after an entire side. Some claim to hear it....I think they are full of it.
Belts can suffer the same with a power supply constantly adjusting apposed to minor corrections . Their is no one drive choice is better in my view. They all have brands/models that excell, and that suck ,both in performance and value (price).
Turntables and phono preamplifiers I think an open mind is better than a personal biased closed in narrow view of what OTHERS should like. We all hear differently and focus on different points of music, genres, frequency extremes etc...
What’s wrong with choice let alone mine over yours..... |
@chakster
Yes , of course the same arm n cart. Apples to apples, always.
I'm really not as impressed with specs as you seem to be. Wow and flutter is but one measurement and also one with dubious formulas behind its final claims. Not really seeing the reason for you to say that .025 for a DD needs to be lower to be a better table. Its the same as your Lux 444, a table I owned a lifetime ago which you praise but now what are you actually saying? Its not up to par?
Specs mean little without all the accompanying perameters to do no harm to that tiny signal. Self noise and rejection of outside vibrations is more important than .008 rpm off speed by a large margin IMHO anyway.
What does a DD motor on a cutting lathe have to do at all with playing them back. THAT'S apples to avacodos. No music is played or noise in the room when a cutting lathe cuts grooves and sits on a secure floor on a stabilized and isolated stand.
Your home environment is more hostile for noise, static, reflection and deflection of floors and walls . It means nothing as far as the superiority that a turntable needs to be DD to be the best. Thats just nonsense. Any honest music loving anologue head will know all drives offer some exceptional playback regardless of what biased zealots claim.
We have preferences for sound, looks, and the ergonomics of use we gravitate towards. They all have strengths and weaknesses no matter how low some formulated spec is.
It's no guarantee it will sound it's best or be the best or be the general consensus that it is in fact all that. There are a lot, a real lot of non DD tables that many prefer over the technics and others. Thats proof, generalizations and biased ownership are the worst forms of choice for all. Best for those that can't acknowledge others right to choose what suits others needs and preferences of sound. I've heard very good belted units, DD's and idler drives. Very good examples of all drives exist for superb playback. In fact I heard a very well sorted idler drive make an expensive technics DD sound anemic in comparison just yesterday. Like the folks who like the sound of their Rega over a DD......it doesn't make them wrong and your bias right. It just makes them enjoy a choice they made and prefer over something like DD that they hear as hard unenjoyable to THIER hearing , not yours or mine. I like and prefer choice and the flavor some drives bring to certain music also. Choice is good or the only question asked on this forum if some had their way would be " so what color did you get your technics in?"......
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@chakster
You really should get use to adding to your Japanese DD obsession diatribes with the caveat...."in your opinion"...not everyone does or is required to be that narrow of mind and sight to enjoy their music , played back their way. Some folks don't want to have to build a massive plinth and modifications to motor drives that actually sound terrible without that expense. So they really are in many cases incomplete for some. I own all drives. They all have as I said before, their own strengths and weaknesses, their own sound which for some, that sound is the preference THEY choose. All the ranting and knocking down of others choices and labeling what they choose as cheap junk and yours as the best choice for all, doesn't make it so. It makes you come off as unable to allow let alone even entertain the fact others choose for their needs and wants and don't really care about what you or anyone else claims as fact.
Its just your opinion, and that I respect and your entitled to it.
You just need to realize your not in any way entitled to belittle or force your narrow view of things on others as gospel. They are also entitled to have the right to their own opinion and it be respected as such..... till your given the official title of The authority on turntables. ...it's just your opinion. The nice thing about opinions when respected, people can absorb and learn new things. Thats how an open mind and an open forum works. When it parades opinions as fact with personal jabs it becomes something less functional and less knowledge is willingly shared and those that push their opinions often don't even know the experience they are shutting themselves away from .....
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@chakster
You really , really , really should read , then comprehend BEFORE you reply. Where did I say or give the idea I was all about belted tables or cheap plastic stuff. Why are you so demeaning to anyone who points out there are other choices besides what you narrowly see and opine like your the gospel according to chatter.
I like , own and appreciate all drives for their individual sound and the unique way each approaches the same goals for playback. I currently own an Orbe SE with Graham 2.0 tc arm,
Recently purchased back my Micro RX 5000 and put on an Sme iv arm and the max 282 I had kept. I have a Lenco 75 with a Trans Fi terminator arm. I recently refurbished an SP 10 mkii A and set it in a panzerhotz and carbon plinth with the EPA 100 mkii arm I bought with it. I have a Reed 3p arm to be used on a custom table I am in the middle of building (mass weight heavy plinth and platter belt drive.
I use to repair and refurbished many of those Japanese DD tables so it's a mystery to me why your so thick and quick to defend what you don't need to. I NEVER said they were inferior or belts were better....that's your thing to run others choices down because they don't match yours and even go off half cocked when no one said your wrong , but desparaging others opinions and choices is not impressive, at all.
I am fully aware of how good many DD tables were in their day and how the value they have can be good IF YOU LIKE THE SOUND OF THEM. To some they don't do it for them , some like a good idler , others a good belted unit for THEIR preference and budget. Not everyone can afford what some of us took a lifetime to build up and enjoy. This I do know, many a Rega owner is happy with what they have, enjoy it and that's all that matters. Owning this stuff isn't impressive chackster, it's fortunate we do , but the guy with the lowly belt drive you actually used the word hate to describe. ......he enjoys his own preference, his music and gear as much as anyone....so why be a jerk and look down on them.....respectful attitudes to fellow enthusiasts costs nothing. .......
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@chakster
Museums are for looking and usually for looking at static objects. My tables are used, as they were designed for and enjoyed as such. Often get sold and different models are refurbished and or rebuilt and enjoyed and the cycle continues. A museum would be for say a pair of older unrestored DD Japanese JVC 101,s sitting unused , underapreciated, and just static weights......or is that mosileum. .....for some it’s one and the same.... but hey critisize the someone putting them back to use and in use for others..the weakest link in your system would appear to be severe ownership bias and a severe case of under appreciation of others preference when indifferent to your own.
Japanese DD are not the be all and end all turntables for everyone no matter how many times you post it or how blindly you believe it is or should be everyone’s choice. Many ,like Harold described his time with the Lux 444 feel no emotional involvement to the sound as I did with my 444 decades ago when current. We all don,t hear the same or gravitate to the same tonal playback or listen to the same music, let alone key in on the same frequency or timbre within the music. The difference for some folks preference / hearing for choosing a drive is much like the difference between digital and vynil. One just works better at bringing out the music and drawing them in than the other does.
Its a choice, a preference and not yours to demean as a right or wrong thing at all. No one is ever forced to buy anything like you posted above and these guys that post for advice quickly tire of a constant wet blanket of DD is the best your belt is cheap crap etc. etc.etc ... I advocate a choice ...you only advocate your own biased ownership while claiming people are forced to buy what you " hate".....one of the worst things a dealer can do for many is to always run down the other guys products to lift the status of his own....you are doing that almost daily here as a fan boy ...enjoy your vintage DD Japanese tables as many people are and do....just be aware many others have made other choices and while they respect yours....try putting some karma back in the world and try " in kind " over indifference.........
Ps...those jvc 101’s in a constrained layered ring as a plinth and wrapped in leather as a finish with function, looks and sounds quite good with a nice vintage arm to finish it off with..... |
Thanks Lew, guess myself and spell check are not as quick as you are.... lol .......looked funny when I typed it, but the point came through thought. ... |
Hi Raul,
It certainly makes it less enjoyable and inviting when someone refuses to allow others to express their own opinions or discredits them . More importantly , passing along some knowledge along the way and learning some from those different experiences others have to pass on often gets lost along the way.
One thing that most open minded and knowledgeable people learn quickly is there are not just many choices but also very few hard rules with many exceptions or in general as they say.
Some folks just can't escape the personal bias of ownership even in the face of reality that they aren't much past mid fidelity in the grand scheme of all things audio. The guy who knows what he has , appreciates it , maximizes it's performance in his budget and to his preference while still respecting and appreciating the choices and opinions of others is always, always the smarter man and the better to learn and learn from.
The ones who refuse to see past their own biases and belittle anyone in difference to their opinions often just spew general knowledge about their audio pieces while critisizing others audio they most times no nothing first hand about.
There is a lot of experience and knowledgeable guys on this forum,but I wonder how many less the argumentative narrow views of a few have caused to no longer be as active.
Keep spinning them and enjoy the music.
Cheers... |
Most any company , big or small producing turntables could produce a direct drive table if they chose . Most companies don't produce any motors themselves at all and outsource and use the expertise of the manufacturer to build to suit. Just because technics can do it in house don't think outsourcing couldn't find the same results. Its scary how narrow some people's views of business and ability are. The only question is...would you buy it at a cost like the 20 k the new technics is or 10 k and still need to build a plinth and arm....
So if your too cheap to buy that and opt for the 1000 dollar 1970's DD. ....why would anyone bother to invest what won't sell....that's the question not that they can't do it...
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