Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : I think 3 years ago I added to my Pioneer cartridges this MK2 that I bougth for around 300.00 and I sold it ( sis months latter. ) for the same money.
Yes, is a good cartridge but nothing to die for.
Of course that as always all depends on the audio system, owner priorities and ears.
That price in that link is just " crazy " and not worth to pay for. If I remember a gentleman in Rusia puts on sale similar cartridge and for big money.
Raul, I’ve seen that old listing from strange russian seller who can’t even take a good pictures of what he’s selling for maximum price.
Anyway, i guess it’s not a good idea to talk about prices (in public) from audiogon users like Harrold when the item is for sale, if you don’t want people complain about your own prices.
When you discovered most of the MM cartridges, probably before you have started this thread, i’m pretty sure the prices for MM were 10 times cheaper, but i don’t expect you are gonna sell for what you paid for? Let the buyers decide for themselfs.
It you want to have laugh just look at the prices from this japanese seller on ebay, who asking $599 for Fidelity Research FR-5E :))
BTW this thread and You are responsible for increasing the prices on most MM carts on the global market. But it’s still a great experience. Take it easy.
I went to the ZYX website, finally, to get more information. There they do say that the load R = 100 ohms.
You’re talking about V.2 (Second Generation) of ZYX CPP-1 pre-preamp which is indeed set to 100 ohms. I own First Generation of the same device which is set to 125 ohms, the rest is the same (+26dB step-up ratio).
But I am confused a bit more, because on the ZYX website they give a spec for accuracy of the RIAA correction, which per se does not make sense unless the CPP-1 is a hi-gain phono stage. I had conceived that it was an external gain stage, adding 26db of gain, according to ZYX. Thus it should contain no RIAA filtering.
If you are looking at the specs with RIAA correction accuracy then you’re on the wrong page. You’re probably looking at their phonostage called ZYX Premium Artisan. The wooden box looks similar on the pictures, but this is MC phonostage with 2 MC inputs (62dB gain). The previous version of ZYX Artisan phono stage was actually for MM (35dB) and MC (60dB).
ZYX CPP-1 V.2 (pre-preamp) and ZYX Premium Artisan (MC phonostage) are two different devices of the last generation. That’s interesting, it’s seems like Nakatsuka-San give us no chances for MM cartridges, his previous version of MM/MC phonostage is no longer available and the lastest generation has NO MM imputs. Welcome to the MC world! Must be good for Nandric.
Nope. I was looking at the spec sheet for the CPP-1. However, I agree that the CPP-1 does not contain an RIAA correction filter. 125R would be little different from 100R when it comes to loading a phono cartridge. Specifically, I would expect that the 980LZS would not sound its best with either load. Another question: When you use the CPP-1, do you run it into an MM phono circuit, set up with a 47K load? (That's no problem; they could easily design the CPP-1 to drive that 47K load; I am just curious.) Thanks.
Sure, when i use CPP-1 headamp it is connected to my MM phonostage on WLM Phonata Reference.
The WLM PHONATA works with two-stage amplification:
• An inductive voltage amplification stage (for MC cartridges) using high performance professional audio step-up transformers. • A solid state current amplification stage, using specific MOS-FET transistors with tube-typical harmonic distortion characteristics.
I have tried Stanton 980LZS (without ZYX CPP-1) connected directly to WLM Phonata MC phono stage. The PHONATA MC stage offers automatic adjustment of Load-Impedance, that’s what in the manual:
• You don’t have to adjust the load-Impedance of your cartridge (plus the interconnect-cable between cartridge and Phono-Preamplifier). It goes automatically thanks to one ingenious piece of circuitry. • You don’t have to adjust the source voltage of your cartridge as well.
I’ve never said my 980LZS sounds dull, it was like that only when i put 98S stylus on my CS-100, but later with your help i realized they are not compatible at all, so it is not 980LZS fault. But i still preffer the sound of CS-100 WOS in my system.
Dear @chakster : I don't care about sellers including me.
I know exactly what each one MM/MC cartridge I own or owned is worth to pay for it and the more important: WHY to pay that price or just wait. This WHY is unknow for many buyers.
That Pioneer is not worth to pay for it at that price. That Russia gentleman and this Finland one think are alone in the world and where there exist no persons that can appreciate or not offers.
Btw, you are talking as a true and real seller.
Only for your records in this thread almost everyweek ( not many years ago. ) people posted here not one but several links to buy diferent cartridge models disclosing where exist the best offers. I posted these kind of links " hundreds of times ".
Dear Chakster, I once looked into how those phono stages work that are said to automatically adjust the cartridge load impedance, but I have now forgotten how it is done. However, the question now is whether the WLM, given the design of its input stage, reacts to seeing the output of the CPP-1 as its "load". You might want to ask the Phonata technical advisors about that. You are apparently satisfied, anyway, and that's what counts.
No problem, Raul You’re not the only one who knows what is worth or not, we are all buying and selling cartridges. I think we pay for the personal experience with certain cartridge in our systems. For me it’s the most important, maybe not all of us can afford all the cartridges, just to buy multiply samples and put them on the shelf like you do (but it would be nice). You have more cartridges than most of the professional sellers, but it does not makes your own prices better. Even if your Ortofon m20FL (for example) is a great performer and you know it for sure, it’s overpriced in your own "private" list, because i paid $300 less for the same cartridge in mint condition from another a’gon user a year ago. This is a huge difference, much bigger that Harrold’s margine on Pioneer which is much rarer cartridge than ortofon to be honest. And all the prices are changing, depends on demands from the buyers. There are so many overprices items on ebay sitting there for years, but those Pioneer sold quickly even for $500 and this one is not the cartridge of the month in your own thread. It's much better to pay less, but it's a great cartridge.
I once looked into how those phono stages work that are said to automatically adjust the cartridge load impedance, but I have now forgotten how it is done.
I’m learning a lot from you guys. Once the loading of MC cartridge is so complicated/important (different strokes for different folks), why phono stages with Automatic Load Impedance are not so popular? I wonder how it works too, maybe it’s a panacea?
However, the question now is whether the WLM, given the design of its input stage, reacts to seeing the output of the CPP-1 as its "load".
ZYX CPP-1 headamp goes only to MM input of WLM phono stage (set to 47k ohms), only MC input on WLM has automatic impedance loading which is useless for CPP-1 headamp. The WLM manufacturer once told me that cartridges with extremely low impedance like ortofon SPU (2 ohms) or ZYX (4 ohms) must be used with step-up trans or headamp with WLM Phonata. That means their MC input with automatic load inpedance is better for MC carts with a bit higher internal impedance.
I just ordered 100k ohms resistors from Texas Components on ebay (TX2575 Naked Foil Audio Resistor). After Lew’s advice i made a quick search and realized they are probably the best in the world resistors for audio. Texas Components is the manufacturer in USA, but they are also sell similar resistor made in Israel.
Thanks @rauliruegas who put the light on 100k ohms loading for MM cartridges. I’m really looking forward to try it for a first time soon. I’m gonna start with my old cheap Grado PH-1 phono stage as experiment, this is very simple phono stage with low and high gain, schematic is here. Maybe i have to upgdate the caps also. This is how it looks inside (picture from another user) and my own ph-1 can be different, the parts are different depends on a year of production.
Grace cartridges are waiting to be loaded at recommended 100k ohms.
Dear @florence4 : First than all exist two similar but with different quality performance level cartridges name it the same model:
JVC X1 MK2 and Victor X1 MK2. Both manufactured by JVC. I think than less than one year ago I posted and explained on its differences on quality performance levels where the JVC X1 MK2 was the best one.
How do you know which is JVC and which comes with the Victor designation?, you can read directly in the cartridge top plate where one says JVC and the other Victor.
Hi florence4, If the devil is in the details then Raul is right. My X1,mk2 is Victor without prefix ''JVC''. However our member Don(Griffiths) made the real discovery. Namely the Victor Z-1 S with Jico SAS stylus. According to me nearly as good as the MK2. According to Don , Fleib (?) and some Aussie(?) as good as the MK2. This means an top MM cart for cheap. My sample is available for the price of the SAS stylus. I prefer MC kinds and keep only the real top of the MM kinds.
Dear @florence4 : If I was you I will on the hunt for ( at least ) the JVC X1 and from here to the JVC X1 MK2. Niot for the Victor ones ( SAS or not SAS. ).
Thank you nandric and Raul for your input. I can see there is a different of opinions about the quality of the Victor Vs JVC cartridge, but that was not at all my intention. Thanks again for you both for the information. It is not easy to find either one of those cartridges anyway, as it took me over a year to find the X1 at a reasonable price!
Raul, What evidence do you have that the JVC X1's are any different from the Victor X1's. Are the specifications different ? Given the age of these cartridges they most likely are not up to spec anyway and sample to sample variation could easily account for any differences you may have imagined. For what its worth I have an original Victor X1 with the original Beryllium cantilever and Shibata tip. There is no spec difference between the JVC X1 and Victor X1 (first version, not the mkII ) . The Jico Shibata replacement sounds nothing like the original Beryllium/Shibata. The original stylus produces a quicker faster vastly more transparent sound than the Jico replacement. The Jico replacement is thicker through the midrange and rolled off top and bottom compared to the original Victor stylus.
I’ve bought NOS Victor X1 II in the box, never used with the documents and individual test. I have tested it recently for 5 hrs and it was better than my used X1 II E which is sold now.
Now i have Victor X1 in perfect condition and i’m gonna check it out soon on the same arm againts my X1 II.
All 3 Victor cartridges have no issues with suspension.
Don who has many samples of those models told me the flip down stylus guard (on X1) was considered a ’low tech’ design. So it may cause undesirable resonance.
Nandric, I had just checked the jico web site and found out they have three diferrent styluses: DT-Z1, DT-Z1 SAS, and DT-Z1 S. Which stylus are you referring to be installed in the Victor Z1S cartridge? Thank you.
Dear @dover : I have not precise evidence on the JVC/Victor subject other than:
- Usually what you can find out over internet is the Victor one but no the JVC X-1 MK2.
- In the english flyer JVC stated that the model was not marketed in USA and Canada.
- My take is that the JVC was for the Japan/Asia domestic market and Victor for export.
- In Japan exist JVC ( Japan Victor Co. ) but not Victor as " Victor " alone.
- After hearing the Victor and the JVC ( same models. ) my take is that been better quality performer the JVC this one is " hand calibrated " or with hand choosed the best Shibata stylus and nothing of that was made it with the Victor. This is like the Stanton 980 and 981 that are exactly the same cartridge but the 981 is hand calibrated or the AT 20SS and the AT 15SS tha are the same cartridge but the 20SS was a hand choosed/calibrated one.
I own four X-1 and the Z1 and the Jico SAS stylus and I agree totally with you: the Jico SAS is an inferior item. SAS stylus/tip does not changed only the cantilever, the only real change with Jico is that 210.00 higher price.
Rigth now I only own two of the X-1, the other two already sold.
I have not specs for the JVC X-1 MK2 but outperform both the X-1 JVC and the Victor. I think that the MK2, as I said it last year, is only outperformed by the Astatic 2500.
There is a German catalog with JVC X-2, so at least it was available in Europe under JVC brand, not only in Japan and Asia as Raul said. The JVC X-2 looks identical to Victor X II.
If there was JVC X1 mk2 as Raul said, then it's obscure model, never seen one of these.
Victor Company of Japan was established in 1927 as a subsidiary of the US-based Victor Talking Machine Corporation and in 1953 became majority owned by Matsushita. The products used to be sold under Victor in Japan and under JVC (Japan Victor Company) outside of Japan, to differentiate from the original Victor company which had in the mean time become a subsidiary of RCA though its product label HMV seemed to have been transferred to EMI. My understanding is that eventually the company started using JVC in Japan as well.
Whoops: I don't have the computer skills to forward that chart. It compared about 60 phono cartridges a consumer magazine had reviewed in the previous 10 years. Three which came out way on top were the Empire2000Z, Stanton 881S, and Micro Acoustics 2002e. Sure wish I could figure out how to forward that chart; my apologies.
I have a copy of that comparison and agree that each of these is a fine cartridge, favoring the Micro Acoustics myself. I find it to be the fastest-sounding non-MC cartridge I have yet heard, excepting MA’s upper-line models. Very dynamic and exciting sounding with no objectionable artifacts that I can discern.
The MAs get noticeably better as you move up the line from the elliptical-stylus equipped 2002-e, with increasingly thinner and lower-mass beryllium cantilevers and progressively-better line contact styli in the "System II" models. Starting with the 3002 System II, the bodies are exceptionally lightweight and resonant-resistant, employing carbon fiber and iridium platinum in the body construction. They also have an easy-to-use "vari-weight" system built into the body cavity to optimally match the mass of the cartridge with a wide variety of tonearms.
MA electrets are said to be (and are IME) completely insensitive to cable/preamp capacitance and phono stage input resistance due to the built-in "passive matching network" that converts the output to a 4k ohm resistive source.
These cartridges were extremely high-tech for the day and perhaps even by today’s standards. MA’s demise was reputed to be due to financial reasons and independent of their ground-breaking sonic performance. I am surprised that they have not achieved more of a cult-following among vinyl lovers today.
Dear @boofer : On that chart only the Empire was marked as " excellent ". Btw, the humble Ortofon MF20FL was in that same level. In the Audio Technica models only the AT 24 ( stand alone version of the AT 25. ) is rated as " very good " but I'm sure that the stand alone unit deservs the " excellent " range.
That comparison chart is really old and gaves an idea of what things were on those old times.
Raul: different chart; the one I cited scored those 60 cartridges on a scale of 10. The MA 2002e, Stanton881S, and Empire2000Z all scored the highest ratings, 9.7. Various Shures, Acutex, ADC's,Pickerings, Ortofons,Osawas,, AT's, etc. scored quite high also, between about 8 and 9.5. The Signet TK7E scored between 9.0 and 9.5, as did the AT25. Of course all this is interesting but of course not definitive; is anything in audophilia land definitive?
Dave: I also have a MicroAcoustics [the 2002e and love it.] I have around 15 cartidges four of which are LOMCs: a Denon DL 103, 301II, a Benz Micro Gold, and an Ortofon Cadenza Red. In the past, I've had a Dynavector 20B, an Orofon MC20, and an Ortofon XM3, a HOMC. I also have two direct drive TTs and two belt drives, enabling me to switch cartridges easily due to detachable headshells.
I too have an assortment of vintage tables, an Empire 698 (captive to the Empire 4000D/III), a Luxman PD121 DD with the last version of the Infinity Black Widow CF tonearm (currently fitted with Signet TK-7LCa), and a Thorens TD-147, fitted with the MA 3002 System II. I enjoy them all in rotation in my vintage system. I have three extra arm wands for the Thorens, making it easy to swap between cartridges when the urge strikes.
My experience is that the better-sounding LOMCs are expensive and much more demanding of tonearms, tables, loading, isolation, etc.
Continue to enjoy your MMs and your MA electret. They are special.
My special thanks to @rauliruegas and @lewm for pointing me on 100k ohms resistors for MM phono stage. After a few evenings of playng records i can say it was a very big improvement. In case with top of the line Grace F-9F and F-9U pickups it’s like you’re listening totally different cartridges when choose 47k ohms vs. 100k ohms, the difference is huge in resolution!
And that is what one 100k ohms resistor can do with the sound, wow, i'm so impressed.
That was Texas Components TX2575 Naked Foil audio resistor everyone can buy directly from the manufacturer on ebay for $37 PAIR. It’s revolutionary upgrade for me, only now i can fully understand how good those Grace cartridges are. Grace recommended 100k ohms loading in the manual, using them with 47k ohms is a waste if time, they loose their charm.
The experiment was made with two identical phono stages, one was transformed into 100k ohms, another remain at 47k ohms.
Maybe i should continue with replacing the caps on those devices? Which capacitors would you recommend @lewm ? Thanks
Chakster, I am going ga-ga over my SoundSmith re-tipped Grace Ruby, with OCL stylus. At first it was rather clinical sounding, almost edgy, but after about 20 hours, it seems to have undergone a sea change. Competes with anything else I own. And I have yet to change the load resistor from 47K to 100K.
Raul, By the same token, I have been listening lately to your Ortofon MC7500, another really fine cartridge. I run it at 47K load, contrary to popular custom. With this load (or lack of a load), the MC7500 is very wide open sounding, presents a soundstage that goes outside the edges of my speakers and up fills the room. So far, I have not found an MC that does not sound excellent at 47K, slightly better, in fact, than at more typical load resistances. If you have sufficient inherent gain in your phono stage to obviate the need for a SUT, I urge anyone to try it.
As to the "Victor" vs "JVC" discussion. I have to hold with those who say the JVC designation is/was always seen in the USA for these products. Never Victor. I always thought of the Victor name in association with their products that were not exported from Japan but may also turn up elsewhere in Asia. For example, my Victor TT101 turntable. Most were made to run on 100V, as per the Eastern half of Japan. I have not seen a TT101 under the JVC label, but I would not be surprised if those also exist.
@lewm this loading quest getting even more interesting with your latest comment. I've been looking for phono stage with high gain and sockets for different load resistors to make it easier for both MM & MC. I think McCormack Micro Phono (under $400 used) can be a good option to experimemt with loading, i wish someone could comment.
Chakster, JLTi phono stage has sockets for loading plugs. David Dlaloum (used to post here) has one and thinks highly of it. They were $1800 US. It might be hard to find one on the used market. They are now being made in Australia and sold direct by Custom Analogue Audio - $990 AUD.
I bought a Vista Audio phono MK II for loading options. You plug in resistors on the board for load and gain. Mine also has sockets for capacitors, or you can order whatever native capacitance you want. Gain is from 40 to 70dB. The sound is neutral, fast and clean. I bought it as a tool to check out loading, but it's surprisingly good. It sounds like my AHT (PIA to change load and reset DC offset) only not as clean or refined. $300 US - Vista Audio.
I remember the McCormack ('80s). It does not have enough gain for many LOMCs - 55dB max. I use 60dB on the 980LZ - .3mV out. IMO the Vista sounds much better -S/N, etc, but no direct comparison.
Dear @lewm : """
I have been listening lately to your Ortofon MC7500, another really fine cartridge. I run it at 47K load, contrary to popular custom. With this load (or lack of a load), the MC7500 is very wide open sounding, presents a soundstage that goes outside the edges of my speakers and up fills the room. """
TAS HP editor always loaded LOMC cartridges at 47K that I disagree with.
A LOMC cartridge normally has very low internal resistance 2-5 ohms and this means is not sensitive to impedance loading and if we have changes in the kind of sound when changing impedance then is really because the overall reacting inside the phonolinepream self design and not really because the cartridge it bself.
Raul, Why an MC cartridge is not so sensitive to load resistance has to do with the fact that its resonant frequency is very very high, way outside the audio bandwidth, largely because its inductance is about 1000X lower than that of a typical MM cartridge. Why many persons find that loading down an MC cartridge makes the sound more pleasing has to do with the design of the phono stage, not with the cartridge. So, when you load a LOMC at 100 ohms, you are really loading the phono input. The fact that my phono sounds good with 47K loading the input from an LOMC is an indicator of its stability. Actually, in my case, there is very little difference, certainly no difference in tonal balance, between a typical load of 100R and 47K. I just prefer 47K for the very slight improvement in open-ness of the sound. Actually, more than once I have been fooled after changing cartridges and forgetting how I had set the R on my phono inputs. (I set my phono up so that I can switch among 100R, 1000R, and 47K loads.) This is how I came to find that I liked 47K loading the Ortofon MC2000.
@fleib thanks for pointing me to JLTi phono stage (the price is right), i have checked what David @dlaloum reported about it on another forum, i will put his quote up here (very interesting):
My criteria were 1) Infinite loading variability ranging from 100k down to 10ohm for R 2) No added C load from the phono stage 3) Good sound 4) MM & MC gain levels
I worked out, that to achieve this, what was required was a phono stage with the facility for loading plugs... Both the capacitive and the resistive loads can then be generated by making up whatever loading plugs are required and plugging them in.
To achieve this I needed a phono stage with a "base" resistive load of over 100k (as you can only go down with R load never up) - and the higher the base load, the closer the total load will be to the R plug resistance - so a higher load makes it easier to calculate.... preferably 1Mohm
In the end I selected the JLTI Phono
I talked to the manufacturer, and he provided me with two very important modifications on the standard item...
1) The standard item has a base load of 47k, with the facility for loading plugs for lower loads (eg MC - it comes with a pair of 100ohm plugs) - My JLTI was modified and supplied with 500K ohm base load 2) all additional Capacitive loading was removed, so C load is now provided exclusively by the cabling/tonearm + and plugs I choose to add
For resistive loads I have made up a set of MC plugs (10ohm to 1000ohm) and MM plugs (10kohm to 120kohm)
I bought a 2nd iteration unit (black box) when originally built in Australia. After Allen Wright (the designer) moved production to his Vacuum State facilities in Europe the box was upgraded (along with the price) and an outboard PS became available. Now since Allen's death I see production returned to Oz under Joe Rasmussen, the original builder.
Mine was sold for use with a wall wart but fortunately an audio buddy with better electronics knowledge than myself built a fully regulated outboard PS for mine. It was a real upgrade in performance and I wouldn't recommend using a wall wart. I've intended to change the circuit loading resistors from 47K to at least 100K but have not done so yet. I have utilized the second pair of input RCAs to lower R for MC cartridges with good success.
I never saw dlaloum's comments but certainly agree in recommending the JLTi. At the price this may be hard to believe but it goes toe to toe with the highly regarded Manley Steelhead, among other more expensive units. There is a review in PFO.
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