Nikola, That's interesting. I have an AT12E which has a different motor than your 12S. The 12E is the same motor as a 13E(a), while the 12S(a) was designed for 4-ch and has extended response and seemingly top specs - 500 ohms/2.7mV. The 13Ea is the cart that the Prof transplanted a ATN155LC into and got great results. This motor has 1200 ohms/4.2mV.
I suspect your 12S body would respond very well to a beryllium cantilevered stylus, although I don't know if it would outperform the 20SS. If you have a 15/20SS stylus, or any 20 stylus, no transplant required. You might have to trim some plastic off the stylus holder. I normally use a wire cutter for this. Because the plugs are round I normally leave some plastic on the sides for stability.
Welcome to the dark side. May your redirection of the force be productive. Regards, |
Dear Dgarretson: Maybe after a enjoy time your 550ML you can be willing to make an interchange with my JVC X-1.
If you can be interested please let me know.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Fleib, My comrade and I are talking about our carts as if they were our children. I complained to him that one of my kids (TK 7SU) has no shoe(s). My excuse by the 'borrowing' of the 'shoe' from the AT 12S was that I don't recoginze the AT 12 S as my legitimate child. You will understand that in this context I am very reluctant to use the expression 'transplant' or 'donor'. I also thought that to list the (death) body of the AT 12 S on ebay would be to much trouble for nothing. But if I understand you well this death body has still some life in it self? Even some(money) value? But to put the exclusive beryllium 'shoe' of my AT 20 Sl on the (death) body of the AT 12 S would never cross my mind in centuries. As an ex Marxist (aka 'scientific materalism') I could not even dream to enter in whatever 'dark side' of anything. But the facts are the facts as one would say.
Regards, |
Fleib,
My dear comrade Nikola, has officially become a transplanter. He is now one of us! I am waiting for the email informing me that he has one morning awaken screaming, "NOOOOOOOO. I HAVE ENTERED THE DARK SIDE"!
Regards, Don |
Has anyone got a "sedagive"? (See "Young Frankenstein" for reference.)
These esoteric discussions of body parts have got my head in a tizzy, even with my medical background. |
Dear comrade Don, For the first time in my life I am glad that my dad is death. He was an 'ortodox communist' and would disinherit me without any mercy for such a 'deviation'. |
Dear Lew, I don't believe at all that you can be confused. But pretending to be is of course possible and even legitimate. |
Fleib,
You were quite right. It arrived today. I wanted to say thank you for your kindness before I do anything else. This truly is a gentlemans forum. Now if only Tom could be brought back into the fray, then the circle would be complete. Now, off to the 440MLa! Regards, Don |
Maestro with AT440MLa transplant.
Let me start off this mini review, with saying this. The stylus that I had mounted in the Maestro is the Level 1 from Sound Smith. A tapered alum alloy cantilever with an elliptical tip. This has been referred to as his entry level replacement. The term entry level does not apply to what this Level 1 replacement accomplishes. It, in and of itself, is an excellent item to own and is one of the best and quietest ellipticals I have ever heard. Bargain would be a better word for its description. There was some concern that this combination (CA/440MLa), might be a little bright or that the voicing would not be right. Neither concern proved to have any merit. I have not had the 440MLa in rotation for at least 4 months so I had not intended to mention anything about what I was hearing until I had several hours of suspension exercise under its belt but this thing just sound so good, I just couldn't wait. Things can only get better with more hours of play! I have not heard an original Maestro with its original boron cantilever & tip. This comparison will be the differences I hear between the excellent Sound Smith Level 1 and the AT440MLa. Similarities abound but what gets noticeably improved is the air around the instruments and the depth/decay of those same instruments. The record I have used for this part of my evaluation is the Andreas Vollenweider Caverna Magica (...Under the Tree-In the Cave). If you do not have this, then you are definitely missing out on a great musical experience. Easy tool to use for cartridge or system evaluation. In comparison to the Sound Smith Level 1, I have detected a slight reduction of bass authority with the MLa. This might be nothing more than the 440MLa just needing more play time, or possibly a slight shift in VTA. Remember, this is just a preliminary 1st impression report. I have 4 stylus assemblies for this Maestro or the Virtuoso. I have both models but have not tried the 440MLa in the Virtuoso. They are the AT95e Vital Line from LPGear (manufacturer unknown at this time),the AT95e Jico Shibata, the Sound Smith Level 1, and this AT 440MLa. If a rating order is what you wish from me then please re-read the 4 but do so in reverse order. Something else that I notice. There is very little, if any stylus drag noise. Just dead quiet. The quiet groove is truly the "quiet" groove. This kind of surprises me because the first thing I noticed when I touched the tone arm is it picked up the vibration. I'm not talking about humm, but the vibration that got created when my fingers touched the metal arm lift. Alive for some reason comes to mind. (grin) ......It has now been 4 hours and I am currently listening to Shangri-La by Mark Knopfler. Forget what I said earlier about a slight reduction of bass output. This thing rocks! Powerful bass with clarity. I turned down the volume to see how the bass would get affected and to my surprise, the bass definition just stays focused and authoritative. Its got that grab you by the balls and listen to me presentation. I don't know if I would give up the boron for this, but this would slay anything available for the Virtuoso short of a trip to a re tipper. But even that would have to get evaluated. What I am noticing the most now is the space between everything. I guess 3D is the word, but that doesn't say it all. It is the dead quite between this space that is so startling. Before this evening is over, I want to transfer this plug into the Virtuoso. I do not want to assume anything as far as they being the same or not. I will say this about what I have learned about the two. With the V/L, the Shibata, or the SS level 1, swapping any of the 3 between the two cartridges, made no difference in presentation or tone between either of them. The Shibata in the Virtuoso sounded exactly the same as the Shibata in the Maestro. The little extra wood on the Maestro does not affect in any way the Alum base alloy cantilevers voicing. That's not to say it doesn't affect the tone of its original boron cantilever. I do wish my $98 Maestro came with its boron/stylus in some kind of usable shape. I really would liked to have removed it and placed it into the Virtuoso to determine if "it" would become perhaps brighter. Anyway, this thing is definitely a keeper and as addition observations become evident, I will post. BTW. I went to the J&R web site to purchase a 440ML and they are only selling the MLa, which is showing out of stock. I guess they are sold out of the ML (higher output), version. I really don't think additional output is required with this setup anyway. Would the increase in output change the voicing. Well, there are a couple of 440ML's on eBay. I might try for one and just find out! Thank you again Fleib. I would not have been able to experience this had it not been for your generosity in giving me the screw! (grin) |
Griff, Nice write up. **Would the increase in output change the voicing.**
Not entirely known. The big improvement should be in dynamics. It seems to be better according to some CA V2 users. Some say much better. Presumably the voltage increase would be almost twice that of V2. That could change the voicing, but might be better yet. Gear has the 440ML for $150. Regards, |
Fleib,
Is it possible to have too much dynamics? This combination sounds "alive" now. I'm wondering if additional dynamics would make the entire soundstage sound artificial? Interesting at first listen, but tiring after awhile. I think I will try for the 440ML eBay complete cartridge first. If the ML transplant turns out to be a step back from what I'm hearing now, I could always return it to its original housing/cartridge. BTW. I was not aware at just how tiny in diameter the 440MLa was. I've had to blink a couple of times to focus my eyes so that I could see for cueing it up. The cantilever alloy is of a different composition also. Much darker in color, making it even more difficult to see. A person definitely has to pay attention when handling it if they don't want to be replacing a bent one soon!
|
Dear Raul, I received the 550ML and indeed its (dark blue plastic) assembly is quite different from the ersatz (light blue) LP Gear offer. I have not yet examined it under the scope, but casual inspection suggests a solid rod cantilever and a smaller diamond. After a time in the saddle it will be interesting to compare to your JVC X-1. |
Dear Dgarretson: First than all enjoy it an if after a time you are willing to interchange with the JVC X-1 please email me. I own two X-1 cartridges.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Don, nice write up. We want to hear how the 440MLA transplant sounds int the CA virtuoso wood. |
Tubed1,
I am going to have to force myself to do the swap! I am sitting here listening to the "FrankinFleib" as I type this. What I have on the table is "the ghost of tom joad by bruce springsteen. I must have listened to this a dozen times since I fist bought it but have never been brought to near tears. There is so much emotion that this cartridge/stylus presents it's almost frightening. I just don't want to stop playing records. What I really need to do is mount a couple of my other top cartridges to compare. But I'm afraid "they" just might get embarrassed. I kid you not! But I will do the swap! Regards, Don |
Virtuoso/440MLa
I have back tracked my play list and I am currently back to ghost of tom joad by the Boss. I hear absolutely no difference between the Maestro and the Virtuoso using the 440MLa as the driving force. Even the pop as the stylus gets lifted at the end of the record sounds the same. I'm having trouble typing this while the Boss is on stage. Just an amazing cartridge/stylus combination. I have noticed that I did not mention several things that I would consider important. I keep my records clean. I have and use the VPI 16.5 RCM. I also use the LP Gear's version of the Hunts 3-way record cleaning brush. Final cartridge setup is done with the Best Tractor by Mint. The stylus get cleaned before each side of play with the Onzow ZeroDust. The phono stage was set at Resistance 47K and capacitance 100 + cables which brings cap. total to 156. It is the contrast between dead quiet and hearing his voice or each of the instruments that is most striking and what is contributing to what appears to be the Boss standing in front of me singing his heart out. Out of the 60+ cartridges I own, the only other cartridge that can do this is the London "Decca" Jubilee. And oddly enough, the "Decca" is also the only other stylus I have that picks up the vibrations that are created when I pick up the metal arm lift. Yes, both the Maestro and Virtuoso did this. To me,there is no doubt this will be ranked in my very small #1 group. How close to the top? I'm starting to think on the peak! Before I make that final judgement, I need to mount a couple and compare. 1st up will be the AT180occ! To be continued!
Regards, Don |
I'm a newbie, or a long lost but now found music lover. Putting together a what I call reference system,(good enough for me). So this is for advice, not information. Been doing the research, you guys are EXTREMELY helpful. My proposed system. I have so far a Zesto Leto preamp, in the box, Clearaudio . Maestro, in the box. Next is the phono preamp- BatVKP10SE or a balanced phono pre, Rhea,IO, maybe. Bi-Amp Salk S12s or 10s Have a pair of Mcintosh MC60s for the top end. Considering a restored Thorens 125 with balanced Silver Audio Cables, but unsure. Need to get it right the first time. I don't want to be chasing the next great thing. This will be so much better than my old rig. Back in the day I had a pair of MC275s and JBL Pyramids and a Winn Strain Guage Cart. Would love to swap/compare carts but have a lots of music to listen to.
Turntable and tonearm and headshell suggestions would be GREATLY APPRECIATED! Raul or any other of you genuses' input would be most appreciated.
Thanks, Dentdog |
Fleib,
Earlier, you mentioned that you had transplanted a AT152MLP into a AT440 body with loss of dynamics but a gain in detail. Do you feel it was because of the less powerful magnets or something else? I ask because I am really trying to get my head around this weaker/stronger magnet hypothesis in regards to the AT440ML. The dynamics on the V/L from LPGear was better than the Shibata from Jico. Could this also be due to better/stronger magnets on the V/L as well? I use to think stylus profile had something to do with this, but your example with the AT152 and the AT440 should have both been Micro lines so perhaps profile doesn't have anything at all to do with dynamics? Regards, Don |
Hi Dentdog, I'm not familiar with all the equipment you mentioned, but I wonder about the restored Thorens 125. I've seen restored tables going for relatively big money and wonder if it's worth it. You didn't mention price and it might depend on what else is available, but I suspect you might be able to do better. Regards, |
Regards Dentdog, Firstly forget rubber belt drives as they can´t maintain constant speed: the stability of platter´s rotation is the MOST important thing. If you have a limited budget I suggest a Japanese direct drive from the golden age late 1970´s/early 1980´s. Many experts here wiser than me can enlighten you. Also buy a (refurbished if you like) Terminator T3Pro air bearing linear tracking tonearm direct from the maker Vic himself. He is one of the very few scientific experts in modern analog audio.
But I strongly advice you go straight to the top: The modern inventions on linear tracking tonearms and direct drim drive and platter technology are here:
http://www.trans-fi.com/
Also, he is using very interesting open baffle speakers...
For me and many other A´goner there hasn´t been no looking back after Terminator and drim/direct drive: these new methods are breathtaking when replay this very complex signal called music.
Best of Luck ! |
Griff, The ATN152MLP to a 440 body isn't a transplant, it's a straight up replacement. I was coming from the orig 440ML stylus so I guess a loss in dynamics is to be expected. It's extremely hard to figure out in advance what the final results will be, because there are too many variables specific to individual generators.
In the case of the 440ML the voicing and resolution changed dramatically for the better with the 152. I used to load the 440 at 32K and switched to 47K with the new stylus. It had detail and refinement that completely eluded the cart with the orig stylus. Sometimes I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from one sample because of mfg variables, but in this case the only difference was the cantilever, aluminum vs beryllium.
The CA has a very different set of specs and I was a little surprised with the extent of your results, but according to your posts you've never heard it before with a micro tip or an exotic cantilever, so you have no basis for comparison. Either do I, not with a CA. The Vivid Line is from a different mfg. Apparently the others are from Jico. Difference in output could be due, at least in part, to voicing. Shibata sounds a little soft, sweet, and might do something different with high freq phase - not sure.
If you believe the results of posters who like the V2 CA, then you can conclude it's better with an additional .5mV (approx.) output. There is the risk that 1mV would be too much and exaggerate some hidden anomaly. That's the chance you take when you redirect the force, Darth Griff. The question is, what would be better the additional output or an exotic cantilever/micro? My vote would be for a SS level 3, but it's a guess and might require changing your arm height. On the other hand, maybe the additional output would be a revelation and blow away Raul's Denon CD player, LOL. If you get the 440ML stylus you can try a magnet transplant. ? BTW, LpGear is now sold out of the stylus. Regards, The Emperor |
Emperor Fleib,
Your latest post has convinced me to take the FrankinFlieb all the way. It will be done with either a MLa or a ML. The ML cantilever auction ends today. If it works well in the CA, I will sent it off to SS. If it doesn't, off will go the MLa. Let see just how far this CA can go. May the force be with us! Hail. all mighty one! Don |
Hi Harold..., It looks like the TT fashion is similar to the clothes fashion. My Kuzma Stabi Reference feels insulted by your sweeping generalization. Syntax measured the Kuzma S.R.(which he owned for some time), among other TT's, with the Timeline and was not able to see any deviation whatever by the Kuzma. So if this rubber belt drive TT has no speed problems whatever there may be some more. |
Fleib and Harold, thanks. I can spend 2-5 K, or whatever is necessary to get there. I guess my concern is, knowing that the cartridge-tonearm-headshell-tt is so important, I would like to make a solid choice in that regard. I prefer a traditional tonearm. Thanks again. Dentdog |
Dentdog, FYI, Rhea is not balanced. Io is balanced. That's one of the major reasons for the far higher cost of the latter. This is not to say that the Rhea is not a fine sounding phono stage. I have noticed, however, that a lot of companies blow smoke as regards balanced operation,particularly where phono stages are concerned. You have to do a lot of careful reading to figure out whether some of them are truly balance, or not. When you boil it down, not too many can actually make the claim. |
Thanks Lewm. Granted it's tough wading through all the claims. I think BAT will probably be my choice. Surely they're balanced. Just don't want to buy a tt and tonearm that's not compatible with the Maestro. I've been stumped on this but Harold's link to trans-fi was certainly informative as is your info. When I put this together would like to catch "lightning in a bottle." Don't mind the digging in advance. |
Dentdog,
I run the BAT VK-10SE with 60+ different cartridges, including a Maestro and several M/C's. The table is the VPI Aries extended with a Graham 2.2 arm. I have had no compatibility problems with anything I've rotated in and out of my system, weather it be tubes or solid state. I run true balance throughout down to the BAT VK-70SE amp. Only problem ever encountered was when I tried to run balance from the cartridge to the phono stage. I couldn't get away from humm. I tried many different combinations and finally called Victor (BAT guru). His advice was run single ended from the cartridge to the Phono stage. It, to his ears, made no difference. I still wonder to this day, if you don't start out balance, how can it be balance at the end? Regards, Don |
Hello Nandric, Tell Kuzma my apologies but he got me wrong: I have nothing against his stiff plastic belt drive. On the contrary, stiff plastic is completely different than flexible rubber a´la Thorens, Oracle etc. Stabi Reference´s drive method combines the best from both belt and rim drives very successfully. No wonder he is hailed as Class A TT by Arthur Salvatore.
A year ago advised by Vic the Magician and his many years´ study on idler drive I had a very serious conversation with my good old Oracle Delphi MK II.7 to improve his performance. I had no doubts about idler drive whether it works fine on him. He was very keen to progress and we said welcome ! to new drive method, the direct drim drive. Superiority of the new drive was simply breathtaking, we couldn´t even imagine the wonder of this new era. He is very proud and enjoys his new life. We also have new ideas and hopefully complete them in a year. Now the rubber traction belt on the edge of the Oracle platter has replaced the peripheral wave trap and he and the belt drive are happily retired.
Congrats for your intelligent choice for TT and TA ! Your opinions and reviews are highly appreciated. |
Dear friends: I know that some of you are really exited and learning with the cartridge transplants and other pertinent subjects to the thread, well I think this is a pertinent subject because it is a cartridge that I was lucky to find out when in the past I intented everything even to buy it second hand in Japan with out luck:
the cartridge is a LOMC Satin M21-B that not every one knows whom's Satin.
Satin designed cartridges and tonearms for year in japan and its products were at the begin for domestic market and latter on to Europe.
I own its next top of the line unipivot tonearm that IMHO is the best unipivot ever made ( when I posted that statement no one ask because only a few persons know Satin. ) and today I bought the M21-B to a seller in Berlin.
In theory the top Satin cartridges have no cartridge ( MC ) competition due to its unique ( like the Astatic MF-2500. ) design. I don't know if that's true but if we take in count that you can't find out to buy and that's " very rare " item has a meaning then could be that the Satin cartridge is the best ever ( we will see. ).
Trhough my audio life I never seen on the net for sale, its extremely rare buy status is similar of that MF-2500: so figure!
To put my hands on this mint Satin cartridge I think beats any excitation from my part ever for an audio item.
It's a 1980 design and in those times its price was around 70-80K Yens. Nothing spectacular on its body that's of plastic and no ultra exotic cantilever or the like, in theory was its design and consequent top performance what gave the Satin cartridge its best cartridge status.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
My mistake: the Satin M21-B is not a LOMC but a MOMC.
R. |
Dear Don and Dent, I am very puzzled by Victor's statement as you (Don) report it. This seems contrary to the very raison d'etre of a company calling itself "Balanced" Audio Technology. Without having researched the VK10, I too would assume it has a true balanced circuit inside. I use an Atma-sphere MP1, which is for sure a balanced device. One of the greatest benefits of balanced phono is lack of any hum. I cannot imagine why you had a hum problem in balanced mode, unless there is something amiss. I think Victor's advice to switch to SE mode is rather flippant. As a maker of your phono stage, I think he has an obligation to help you solve the issue, rather than to suggest you avoid it. On the other hand, I hold Victor in very high regard, so I don't know what to think.
I personally have run tonearm/cartridge combos that were giving me hum problems with my other (SE) phono stage into the MP1, and I was rewarded by dead silent backgrounds. (By the way, Dentdog, you should consider the Atma-sphere MP3. It is balanced and more reasonable in cost than an MP1, if cost is an issue.) I have never ever encountered any hum with a true balanced phono hook-up, and there are some other inherent advantages to running cartridges in balanced mode, as well. More output for one. |
Lewm,
Victors remarks, in no way changed my opinion of him. He is a genius in circuit designs and product development. That discussion, that long discussion with him, had to have been 15 maybe more years ago and I have since gotten a better idea why he had made that statement. He was definitely not flippant and I am sorry if that is how my short reply might have sounded to you. You can not truly wire a phono cartridge to the phono stage in a truly balanced mode. It has been called Quasi-balanced (meaning sort of balanced?). The problem definitely was not the BAT phono stage, but was the silver unshielded phono cable from Bob Graham. Bob was kind enough to refund my purchase price and I then went with the XLO signature's. Because of Victors comments about not being able to hear/or measure any difference in either Balanced or Single Ended configuration coming from the cartridge and going to the phono stage, I went with the more common (and cheaper), single ended phono cable design. It is this Quasi/sort of balanced that makes me a little confused, when discussing truly balanced circuitry. Can a circuit be "truly" balanced, if at its very beginning, is just Quasi/sort of balanced? It was your earlier comments pertaining to being careful about products being truly balanced that sparked that memory . Regards, Don |
I've had three balanced phono stages: BAT VK-P10, AtmaSphere MP-1, ARC PH-2. I recollect that in the first generation P10 the first gain stage is single-ended, the rest of it is fully balanced. In subsequent P10s the first gain stage is fully balanced. |
Dave,
That would explain alot! My original VK10 arrived with the dealer display unit, in other words, one of the very 1st units in San Diego, very early production runs. It has been back 3 times for upgrades and is as current as it can be. Never had a failure of any kind. Bulletproof to say the least! Currently it is the SE model with the 6PACS (kindly referred to as depth charges), and Lundahl SU. Thanks for the clarification, Regards, Don |
Dear Raul, I hope this is not a stupid question but I have no idea what an 'MOMC' means. As far as I know all Satin MC carts are 'HOMC' (high output) but also with replaceble styli. In this sense they may be called 'special'. I hope you deed not shoot your self in the foot by your enduring quest for the new carts?
Regards, |
Nandric, I do have a Satin m-117g bought in 2010 and I believe it is a low output version. |
Dear Don, With all respect as our professor, your statement "You can not truly wire a phono cartridge to the phono stage in a truly balanced mode" is not correct. Cartridges are inherently balanced devices, except for some rare exceptions like some of the old Decca designs. The cartridge does not "know" whether you are taking its output from one side of it or the other; there are equal and opposite polarity signals on either end. Conventional SE input phono stages selectively ground one side and take the signal output from the other. True balanced phono stages DO exist. (I own one, the Atma-sphere MP1. MP3 is another. I used to own also an Ayre p5Xe, also truly balanced. I assumed that BAT phono stages were also truly balanced from input to output, but now I am not certain. It may be that only the output is balanced. That would explain Victor's statement; if the VK10 does not have a true balanced RIAA stage, then indeed he was correct in what he told you.) Here are some words from Wikipedia:
"Most professional audio products (recording, public address, etc.) provide differential balanced inputs and outputs, typically via XLR or TRS phone connectors. However, in most cases, a differential balanced input signal is internally converted to a single-ended signal via transformer or electronic amplifier. After internal processing, the single-ended signal is converted back to a differential balanced signal and fed to an output. A small number of professional audio products have been designed as an entirely differential balanced signal path from input to output; the audio signal never unbalances. This design is achieved by providing identical (mirrored) internal signal paths for both pin 2 and pin 3 signals (AKA "hot" and "cold" audio signals). In critical applications, a 100% differential balanced circuit design can offer better signal integrity by avoiding the extra amplifier stages or transformers required for front-end unbalancing and back-end rebalancing. |
Whoops! Sorry Timeltel; I believe you are the professor, not Don. No disrespect to you either, Don. |
" No disrespect to you either, Don."
:)
Peace, |
Medium output: Satin M21-B.
R. |
Hello Lewm, and you to Tom,
No disrespect ever taken from either of you. My comments, the "Quasi-balanced" were from an article I read many years ago. I will try to locate, copy, and paste it here. My BAT phono input configuration has both single ended (RCA) plugs, and XLR's. Only XLR's for output. The article I am referring to was all about how to mount a modern phono cartridge to a modern tone arm in a balance configuration. The reason I even remembered it is because of how shocking it was to me to read such a thing! I readily admit that things electrical (circuity, etc.), will and does easily float over my head at times, but the reading of that article made since to me so it stuck. The article BTW, was not talking about the signal once it enters the phono stage, but was it a balance signal "when" it enter the phono stage. Regards, Don |
Lewm, I ran across this in my file from Victor. This is for our information purposes only. Interesting read.
"Posted by Victor Khomenko on January 4, 2001 at 12:36:22 In Reply to: Is phono cartridge a " balance " device ? If so, why is 99.999% phono preamplifer single ended ? posted by adnut on January 4, 2001 at 11:51:55:
***Some phono guru told me that phono cartridge is basically a " balance " device. It is not. It is neither balanced nor single-ended. It is correctly called "floating" source that can be used either way. Much like a battery. The connection to the circuit defines wether it is now a balanced circuit or whatever.
But all this is really not important, or at least far less important than in the case of say, a preamp interfacing with a power amp. Why? Because the catridge has no ground reference, while the preamp and power amp do. Connecting two chassis always creates some issues that floating sources simply don't have.
The funny part is that floating sources can be connected to single-ended inputs and still behave like trully differential ones. I would much rather use the term differential, because it is better defined than the "balanced" - that has many definitions. We have built single-ended circuits with 140dB dynamic range that behaved completely as you would expect from differential circuits. The trick was - they were floating. Much like the input circuit in your DVM doesn't need to be trully "balanced" or "differential" (and they usually are not) in order to not have your typical single ended nastiness.
All this simply means that one should not get stuck in some terminology black hole, but rather do what is right. One particular case - tube inputs in phono stages. There, given the floating nature of the cartridge, it is more advisable to connect it to a single-ended input, gaining 6dB better noise performance (for the same resouces) that is extremely valuable in tube phono stages working with MC cartridges.
Again, each case is different and every designer sees it in a different light, and two products from the same designers might be different. All thank to the floating nature of this source."
I'll keep looking for the Quasi-balanced article.
Regards, Don |
To put the balanced dilema simply, to properly run a cartridge 'balanced' you must remove the ground strap or internal connection from the cartridge pin negative - only then will it behave as such. This cart body ground can then be connected to system ground |
"Some phono guru told me that phono cartridge is basically a " balance " device. It is not. It is neither balanced nor single-ended. It is correctly called "floating" source that can be used either way. Much like a battery. The connection to the circuit defines wether it is now a balanced circuit or whatever."
(Quote from Victor.) To an engineer, this is a valid point, I suppose. To anyone else, this is semantics. If you hook a cartridge up in balanced mode to a true balanced RIAA equalizer, you will have all the benefits of the noise rejection available via balanced mode. It's "floating" because there is no center ground between the two phases. As soon as you attach it to a balanced phono stage, which WILL have an audio ground, then it becomes balanced to the satisfaction of an engineer, I would think. (The ground in the phono circuit becomes the reference for the cartridge.)
The fact that your VK10 has XLR inputs for the cartridge does not necessarily mean it has a fully balanced RIAA. Probably it does not. I am more and more convinced of that as I read what Victor says about it. This is no slur on the VK10. There are many many great sounding single-ended phono stages. Moreover, seems the VK10 does have balanced output. |
Storyboy, That's a good story. 99.99% of cartridges have no such strap. As I noted above, some vintage cartridges, like the Decca's, did have such. Think of it this way: what happens if you make a mistake wiring your cartridge? Answer: the channels can be out of phase. Why? Because the so-labeled "ground" peg on the cartridge is just a choice made by the maker; you can get signal out of that peg. |
Lewm - You can easily verify for yourself by measuring DC resistance between pins and body- as stated, most carts have a strap or internal soldered connection, usually on the left channel. Shure, Pickering, Stanton, Empire, etc. have a physical strap you can remove, others will have an internal connection that may not measure correctly because of paint on the metal body. |
Lewm,
Why must all the 99.99% of cartridges have to have an "outboard" grounding strap? Are there not also many cartridges with internal groundings, unseen by the naked eye? One more point that pertains to the VK10. If you do choose to use a single ended phono cable, you must use Victors supplied grounding plugs in the unused XLR inputs. I would assume that this is because his phono stage is a balanced input as well as balanced output and the grounding plugs allow for the use of single ended connections. Regards, Don |
Don, I have a similar experience with my Halcro DM-10 Preamp. Running balanced XLR Phono cables into the balanced inputs of the inbuilt phono stage gives me hum with ultra LOMCs.....below 2.0mV but no hum with high output MMs. When I run single-ended phono cables into the RCA inputs of the Phonostage.......no hum whatsoever. Even 1.5mV?
Can you remember if it was all cartridges you had hum with?......or just LOMCs?
Regards |
Sorry....that was supposed to read LOMC below 0.2mV output. |
Dear Audiopulse: I can't say about your Satin 117G but the 117E, 117S and M20 are high output MC designs and I think too that some of them are user replacement stylus.
The M21 nad M21-B are medium output with fixed stylus and the M21-P is LOMC one.
Tha's the Satin cartridge information I have.
Could you share your playback experiences with your Satin 117G?, appreciated.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |