Dear Fleib: ++++ " I'm beginning to wonder if there was ever a "real" PC550 ....." +++++
that's exactly what I posted weeks ago but certainly existed and maybe was at the end marketed time of the Precept line, you can read it here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&10261&4&&st10250
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Regards, all: Trouting for a week in North Carolina, lots to "catch" up on.
Fleib wrote "I think the ultimate might be a magnet transplant on an exotic stylus." And cantilever. A visit to the periodic table of elements will confirm (if there has ever been any question) that each element has a natural resonance. Of those used in cantilever construction, boron, beryllium and diamond (sapphire) are among the highest, 12-18k. Aluminim is much lower.
AT incorporated a color-coded ranking of stylii. Although it is not entirely consistent, yellow, green, white, blue, ivory and finally black indicate a general ranking of quality. Red, violet, magenta and navy blue are frequently model specific but the lighter "teal" blue and red grips are most often seen on mid-grade assemblies.
Yes, Virginia, there is a PC-550. The VE Library, click on "Precept" describes a beryllium cantilever bearing a grain oriented and polished ML stylus. Unfortunately, the color of the grip isn't related. To the best of my knowledge, AT NEVER marketed a TOTL cartridge with a bonded/industrial quality stone.
Peace, |
Fleib,
"Maybe that should be the Michael Jackson of cantilevers".
And then again, maybe that will become the Wrong Way Goldfarb of cantilevers.
Regards, Don |
Nandric, My agreement was about the PC220 in particular, based on Raul's previous comment. I don't own the cart. As far as AT stylus substitutions in general, IMO they afford an opportunity to dramatically increase performance. Look at the Virtuoso, a cart made by AT, the Soundsmith level 1 boosts performance. I'm sure you've read numerous cases of similar AT stylus substitutions. Regards, |
Dear Fleib, I have no opinion about the possible substitution possibilities among AT carts nor am I so smart to grasp or understand AT nomenclature. Every time I need to clean whatever stylus my heart shrinks. I don't believe that I am the right person to perform surgery on different styli holders in order to transplant some better cantilever as a substitution for the lesser one. Your own story about the,uh, number of damaged cantilevers is not some kind of encouragement I would think. This however is also an particular case not suitable for any generalisation. Anyway I nowehre stated anything in general about AT carts or styli.
Regards, |
Hi Tom,
This AT color code ranking that you have mentioned, is it in the order that you list? I have been aware of the colors, but did not know the order of rankings. As always, your knowledge and you are sorely missed!
Regards, Don |
Regards, Griffithds: Hi, Don. Signet and possibly/probably Percept and ATs' entry-level Compas carts are exclusions. Forgot to mention caramel (AT-12 & 120e). Black is (AFAIK) always nude and with a jewel quality stone. Burgandy (140LCa), violet (AT-14S), orange (13Ea), indigo or navy blue (AT-7V, 130ML & one of the 150 P-mount carts, forget which), purple (140ML & 440MLa) and the brown and dark grays of the Signet line are obvious exceptions.
Visit TTN or St.Needles, even BluzBroz for a quick confirmation. Fairly consistent but as Audio Tech., perhaps just to keep things interesting was prone to the occasional variation, keep in mind there are exceptions.
Apologies if this response is delayed, sometimes it seems as if posts are subject to the technologies of "1984". ;)
Good luck with your Frankenmods & as always,
Peace, |
Tom,
Looking at my 550ML through a 60x handheld microscope, about the only thing I can say for sure is that this stylus is not a pressure fit installation. I have always thought a bonded stylus had the bonding agent on the same side as the tip, in other words, the side facing the record. The one I'm looking at has the bonding agent on the back side. the up side facing the sky. The shaft of the diamond is round. The easiest way to describe what I'm looking at would be this. Picture in your mind, a piece of metal, now drive a nail threw the metal until the head of the nail is flush with the metal. Now seal the head of the nail so there are no chance of leaks. Now view the nail so the point is facing down. Shazam! 550ML May not be poetic, but that is what I see. |
Regards, Griffidths: Peter Prichard (of ADC fame) felt nude mounted styli were prone to damage, he commented that pressure fitted styli were somewhat fragile and subject to becoming loose in the cantilever. Consequently his designs were of styli bonded to a secondary material, frequently titanium but in the example of the Astrion and RZL styli, sapphire. This was the "diasta" stylus. Although the RZL cantilever was thought to lack in rigidity, both are pretty highly regarded.
The most common objective for a bonded stylus was cost effectiveness as a smaller stone could be used. A frequent criticism is that tip mass is increased, not sure this is an entirely valid argument. With a nude mount, the optimal practice is to laser bore a shaped hole through the cantilever, insert the stylus and then apply a fixative to the point of contact. AT used glue most often at the top, some are glued at both top and bottom.
The primary advantage of a nude mount with square shank stylus is the ability to accurately orient the stylus to the cantilever, the stylus' shank is essentially self-aligning. A round shank or bonded stylus will require careful positioning by the technician. By your description, the said 550ML is a nude mount. If bonded, under modest magnification a material transition should be evident, usually at the termination of the stylus' cut.
Should you find the ATN440MLa stylus a little too "hot", the 140LCa stylus should offer more lower-mid apparency. Both are nude mounted styli of good (clear) quality.
Hope not to bore with what you already know, a return to reading "Fahrenheit 451" & check the thread tomorrow.
Peace, |
Don, That's how a bonded platform looks when viewed from the top, like the head of a nail. Depending on your angle and where the light is coming from, it can almost look like a separate platform on top. In the photos on Asylum it looks like that. It's a shadow.
Look at the business end again from different angles. Don't you see a ring around the bottom of the round diamond shank on the underside of the cantilever? It's the same silver color as the cantilever. That's the platform. Glue doesn't look like that.
We really need better photos. It's surprising that none of us has a decent USB set-up. The tip could in fact be a bonded ML on a straight cantilever. AT made one of these, the 3472ML P-mount, made with dark green plastic. I just looked at the PC again. Compared to a stock 95E (with the fitting so I know it's stock), they look the same except the PC has something black covering the part that looks like the head of a nail. The bonding under the tip looks much the same.
I've never seen a bonded ML, but the others look much smaller than this. Back to square 2. We know it's not beryllium or a TOTL PCN550ML. It's a fake, a blue PCNwhatever. Sounds good on my 12E. Regards, |
Fleib,
There is one thing that I have to admit. What ever it is, I do like it. I don't know it my comrade Nikola sprinkled magic Balkan fairy dust on it while in his care, or if it was the round trip at freezing temperature to Europe and back, somehow cryogenically treated it, or perhaps it is the extra care I used in setting it up this time. It does sound quite lively, clean, with 3D depth and amazing width. Almost surround sound in it presentation. Definitely a keeper in my system. Better than some of the thousand $ MC's that I've had. I'm seriously thinking perhaps it was just additional break-in?
Regards, Don |
Don, Seems that comrade NiKola didn't think too highly of it.
AT once made a cart, the AT-150 Ti. It had a titanium coated beryllium/ML. 4mV, 550 ohm. Never saw one or the stylus. The gold coating on AT exotic cantilevers is super thin, not like this. ???
Maybe I'll put some more hrs on mine. Sounds good on the 12E body. Still think I could have done better for $200, LOL. Regards, |
Fleib,
Yes, it is/was a little surprising at how fast we parted with our money on something no one had ever heard of. (grin)
Regards, Don |
I understand that the South Carolina Fish & Game has asked the State Highway Patrol to search any out of state individual trying to leave. It seems someone has decimated the state Trout population! Hope it wasn't one of us? (grin) |
There is this German saying: Das bessere ist dem guten Feind'. Not easy to translate but, put in our vocabulary: 'a better cart is the enemy of the good one'. I prefered the Akai180 above the 550 ml. According to my microscope (50x) the 550 ML has a cheap industrial diamond of, uh, conical shape. No cryo treatment of course . Rather the other way round in our correlation. But my comrade is so fascinated with his 'quest microcope' of 200x 'resolution' that he listen to the music with his eye(grin).
Regards, |
Tom,
Why is it that everytime you post, I want to "copy and print" your replies for filing. They are so informative that I must say thank you. I have both the ZLM and the Astrion stylus. Both are in my opinion very special in what the do. Underrated I think! Fleib has been so kind to offer a stylus housing suitable for my 440MLa transplant. Within minutes of its arrival, I will have it transplanted and mounted. Thank you for the 140LCa input. I had not given that one the slightest thought in reference to its possibilities. BTW. Great read! One of the few books I have read twice. It does make you think! Don't give up on this forum. We need your input to keep the rest of us honest! (grin)
Best regards, Don |
Fleib and fellow 550ML owners,
How light is your tone arm? I ask because while my 550ML was taking up residency with my comrade for awhile, I removed the counter weight from my Graham 2.2 taking it from a mid weight to a light weight arm. I have noticed a major difference with the performance of this 550ML since its return. I had forgotten the change I made to my tone arm while the Precept was out of the country. It has been several weeks. Those of you who have this 550ML, see if you can listen to it on a light or lighter arm. I am sitting here with the counterweight back on and I am not happy with what I'm hearing with the 550ML. It's like the life has been sucked out of it! As soon as I hit Submit now, that counterweight is coming off!
Regards, Don |
Don, Eff mass is a touchy subject around here. How can you run your arm without a counterweight, is it an aux weight? What is the eff mass of the 2.2? Normally, reducing the weight of the counterweight and moving it back to balance the arm, actually increases the eff mass. Eff mass is a diff expression of moment of inertia and length or distance figures in.
Many higher cu carts sound sluggish (to me), on a heavy arm. BTW, that stylus in NOT a PCN550ML. Why don't you call it PC-Blue. Regards, |
Fleib,
You are correct. It is referred to as the counterweight adapter I have 2 Denon 103's. One being the 103R with an aluminum housing. The other is the Limited Edition 103FL. It has a sapphire cantilever and a paratrace stylus installed by Expert Stylus in the UK. Because of their weight, I would install the adapter so that I could balance either of them. I soon got tired of installing then removing then reinstalling it so I decided to just leave it on even when lighter weight cartridges were install. To balance real light cartridges, I would add head weight in the form of a thin lead shim place between the cartridge and the head of the arm. I have noticed that 90% of the cartridges that I'm listening to were requiring the additional head weight so decided to remove the adapter to accommodate the majority of my stash. Actually the 2 Denons are the only cartridges that weighed enough to require the additional adapter so to simplify cartridge installation, I felt it best to remove all this extra weight. If I need to add weight at the front end to compensate for the added weight at the back end, well, it just doesn't sound like the right way to mount cartridges. |
Fleib, Wish we could edit. I forget to answer your question. The eff. mass is 11g, and Blue PC sound fine to me!
Regards, Don |
Dear Don , you have the P77 SAS combination in your collection. You noted it' s like music a few weeks before. Can you describe it with some more details. If you find the time to do it. I am interested in soundstage, voice presentation, bass management, hf. Is it neutral, good tracker? Want you compare to the Glanz models or the totl Audio technica in your collection? I have a p77 and don't know if should order SAS stylus from jico. Thanks for your help. Regards. Knut |
Don, It was the additional weight at the headshell that increased the eff mass. Any weight there increases it close to the amount of additional weight, depending on whether it's in front or behind the cart. Regards, |
Fleib,
This adapter slides onto the shaft behind the counterweight and attaches via 2 allen screws. Because of the difficulty of installing those 2 tiny screws by use of a tiny allen screw wrench with the table up against the wall, I am thinking about just sliding the adapter on and leaving it just loose. I do not like even typing that option because the "just let it hang there", runs counter to how I think. Do you or anyone else on this forum have an opinion about this option? On the surface, it doesn't seem like it would make any kind of difference at all, but when I think about the tiny amounts of weight (grams), that we deal with at the other end, and what miniscule amounts of vibrations can do to a stylus, red flags get raised in my head! All opinions welcome!
Regards, |
Dear comrade, There are rules and there are situations without rules. The last mentioned situation is present when you read the known expression: 'it depends...'. My Sumiko 'The arm' has 5 different counterweights meant for cartridges from 5 till 22 g. 'Meant' means that the counterweight should be put as near as possible to the pivot. This of course imply some rule. I also own the Triplanar VII which is probable made in the Wild West. No rules of any kind regarding the position of the counter weight(s). 'As your ears like it or command 'is a (hazy) instruction. So it is obvious that you don't need anybody opinion except your own. However where ever your counterweight is positioned it should be good fastened. No loose connections nowhere is a kind of a meta-rule.
With comrades greetings, |
Hello Knut,
To describe the sound of a stylus/cantilever is what some refer to as trying to walk down a slippery slope! In this hobby a word like "musical", can mean many different things to many different people. The short answer to your request would be this. Get the SAS1. It is an absolute bargain and will transform your P77 from a very good cartridge to one that just might be the best cartridge that you have ever heard. You have not stated which P77 you own? There is the Garrott Bros. version and then there is the A&R version. I own both and will state that the SAS1 Garrott Bros. is the better(bass is more authoritative with better definition), of the 2. Not by a lot, but enough to notice. If you have the A&R, do not feel sad. The difference is small and just noticeable during a direct comparison. My TOTL Glanz is the Astatic MF100. My TOTL Audio Technica cartridges would be the AT180occ. I do have others that I could include in this group. The Signet TK10ML and the Benz Micro Ruby IIIS, being a couple of them. I am serious about what I am about to state. The "original" Garrott Bros.P77 is not in nor near this group. It's a great cartridge but just not at that level. With the installation of the SAS1 stylus, well, we are talking about a totally different cartridge. I would consider it equal to my AT20SS group (just slightly under the performance of the TOTL mentioned above). If you own, have access to, or just have heard the AT155LC or its "P" mount version the AT152LP, then you have heard the P77/SAS1. Everytime I mount either of my versions of the P77's, I think of the AT155LC. They sound so similar! Very neutral in it presentation, that heaviness in the original P77 has been lifted thereby giving you a much more airy/lively musical portrayal. Sound stage is similar to the original, but the depth does increase. Tracking also improves. You can, and will want to "turn it up" because music will no longer become slightly muddy as it did with the original. I want you to understand, this is not a put down on the Garrott Bros.P77 in any way! What I'm trying to convey, is that you are taking a great cartridge and just making it greater! If I had to describe the difference between the 2 versions in just one word, I would have to say that word would be "CLEANER"! I emphasized that word because the difference is dramatic in comparison. It changes the original so much, that I can safely say, you will start looking for another body so you can have one of each. That is the honest reason why I have them both. BTW. I bought that A&R body for something like $25 on eBay UK. Get both, you will never stop smiling! I hope this in some small way helps you in your decision. For me, this decision is what we call "a no brainer"!
Regards, Don
|
Comrade Donsky, You already know the answer. Remove the loose collar and reinstall it for a heavy cart. This would have the potential to degrade the sound and no potential to improve it. What if the collar slipped forward or backward? It would change your VTF, not to mention vibration considerations. You could tighten the collar and keep it there to move your counterweight closer to the pivot, but leaving it loose is a bad idea IMO.
I'm curious about the P77. Jico makes an SAS for it? What's up with that cart? Some people say it's silly good. Regards, |
Comrade Don,
Now you have raised an interesting issue. I don't beleive Garrott Bros modified the cartridge bodies. My understanding is that these cartridges are all related:
Arcam P-77 = A&R P77 = Cambridge P-77 = Rega M-100 = Supex M-100 (yes, the only Supex moving magnet built by Master Sugano)
I'm curious if anyone has tried the Jico SAS1 with the Supex, or if it is even compatible. I have the Supex M-100 Mk III. Seems to me like it would work, it certainly looks like it would fit. Or if anyone knows where I can pick up a non-conical stylus for the Supex other than Pickupnaalden in Holland. |
Correction, that is Rega R-100 |
Tubed1,
There is no difference in either of the "bodies", but that leaves it wide open for what they might have done to the insides (pot, tweak, damp, etc). Potting is what I seem to remember someone saying on one of these forums. This was by a person who states he had spent time with the Bros. at their home in Australia. It might have been some article I read about the Bros. themselves. The fact remains that I probably could pick out the Bros. version 10 out of 10 times when compared to the A&R. I can say this only because I have spend many hours "fly shit" picking differences between the two. It took me a little over 2 years to find a good Garrott Bros. version at a cost of $338 and I had to frequent the Australian eBay daily to find it. I see the A&R versions every week on the UK eBay and it can be had dirt cheap! For less than $150 (SAS1 & A&R body including shipping), you could have an entire cartridge that can be place in the same class/group as the AT20SS for $50 less than just the price of a AT20SS replacement stylus! Keep in mind, you will not experience this special cartridge in all its glory if the system being used has a "K Mart" sticker. (grin) Nikola, if the term "K Mart" is unknown to you, it means in audio speak, very low(even below entry level) quality. There are others on this forum who also own this gem. In my/our forever quest to try different cartridges, we will rotate the P77 out and sort of forget its there. It will always and I do me always, put a smile on my face when it finally get remounted. It has earned its right to be on my very small "never to sell" list. |
Dear Tubed1 , did you asked at Musonic.uk for Supex sm100 stylus? Regards |
Thank you both, Nikola and Fleib.
Your comments are both highly regarded and appreciated by me. To know something and to admit that knowledge, sometimes is not the same thing! The term "wishful thinking" comes to mind. There was one option that was not mentioned by any of us. That option to avoid this dilemma would be to take my plump, heavy weight children and sell them! (grin) Regards, |
I was going to write something on the Garrott P77 Original vs Garrott P77/SAS.........but Don just covered it so well. Everything he says is spot on. The Garrott Bros certainly did modify the internals of the original A&R P77. Dover actually worked with them in Sydney and is more qualified to comment on the details. When Don says the P77/SAS sounds like the AT 155LC.....I can see (or hear) what he means. I however believe that the sound is more robust and euphonic than the 155LC with possibly greater bass extension? The bass....whilst extended on the P77/SAS....is not yet what I would call completely 'controlled' or 'tight'? I'm hoping this may improve with time....although it is not a noticeable criticism overall. I have another Garrott P77 with the original Garrott stylus and concur in totality with Don's comparisons.
Regards |
I meant that the P77/SAS has greater bass extension than the 155Lc. It's confusing....the way I wrote it.... |
Dear Don, many thanks. that is why asked you. you can describe it so perfectly, I ordered the SAS stylus at once. I have to wait 4 weeks before shipping. I had both P77. I prefer the A&R. So the Garrott is gone last year. Yes you're right. is more bass control with Garrott P77. But to my record collection the A&R better fits. I have many hard rock records from the 80's , but also Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and so on. I like the full bodied sound of the Arcam. But voices could be smoother sometimes or cleaner as you said, if I compare for example to my Glanz or At20ss. So I believe you the SAS stylus is the choice. I feel it already.
Regards
Knut |
Whoops a precept pc 550 ml in ebay. Looks darker blue and other cantilever , complete with box. For buy at once. I have other plans , so good luck. I hope a audiogoner brings light into the 550ml story. |
Did someone get the Precept 550ml? |
Jah is for me. It's worth $299 to settle the controversy about blue whatever. |
Degarretson,
Do you have the ebay number? Even though the auction is closed, I could still get to look at the item. I am also curious about the comparison? That thing came and went faster than my eBay saved search notification could even sent me a notice that one was available. I never even got to see it! Regards, Don
|
Don,
You may find it here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Technica-Precept-PC550ML-With-Original-Box-Stylus-Accessories-/300905777631?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=wkJJNY54UOLxCmAahyG4%252F4Q6JR8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Regards,
Dave |
Dear Dgarretson: Congratulations!
Obviously yous experiences with will be highly appreciated.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dave the Messenger will enlighten us again. Evolution is taking another giant leap. |
Dave,
I can not believe it! You got the entire cartridge. You are the new KING, and I bow to you "Ole" great one! |
Don, as Jagger said, it's only rock n' roll but I like it. For a clear comparison I just need to find a better microscope. |
Using the magnifier provided on eBay, I can already see that the mating of the stylus to the cantilever, and the crushed "U" shape of the cantilever where it mates to the stylus in the LP Gear imitation, are not the same as what you've got there. So, there is every reason to suppose it is authentic. You dog.
But we don't even know whether it sounds good, heh-heh. |
Now all we need is for someone to discover a usable part number for a screw type stylus housing for the CA plug transplants. I have been burning up $20 bills, buying useless donner housings with NO SCREW!
Regards, |
Comrade Don, when looking for the compliance screw some are painted over. The unit I looked at had white paint on it. If you carefully scrape away the paint the screw-head is revealed. |
Tubed1
In the last 10 days, I have received 5 styli from 4 different ebay vendors. None of them had the screw. 4 of the 5 were white inside but this just covered up the black injected plastic that was inserted hot to lock the cantilever in place. The other one (1 out of 5), had the AT locking metal insert ring. The most upsetting part of all of this is that 2 of them, looking at the pictures on ebay, actually looked like they had the painted over screw. Even had the screw driver slot visible. It turned out to be nothing more than just a thin layer of white forming plastic. The actual part used to create the forming die for the replacement part must of had the screw in position with copied. All 5 have been dissected using a utility knife. All 5 have had the black hot plastic injected into either the screw hole or the hole in the back side of the post. That would be the hole used to push out the cantilever from the post. All 5 have taken up residency in the trash can! Thankfully Fleib has offered to sent me a known screw type housing so that I can perform a AT440MLa transplant into a plug to try on the Maestro. Sure wish someone had a known part number WITH SCREW! Burning money is not one of my favorite things! Regards, Don |
Don, I don't think there's a part number for a plug. If there were, you'd wind up with a pressure fitted one. A plug is an integral part of the plastic holder. Probably, the only 3400 series plastic stylus holder made by AT has a pressure fitted retainer. I believe the AT-95SE (@ Gear) is the least expensive aftermarket one with the screw. I don't know this as fact, but it's a .3 x .7 - probably Jico.
I'm a little surprised you haven't received the plug I mailed last Friday. It's in a video mailer. Maybe tomorrow. Regards, |
Fleib,
Yes, I meant the housing (plastic holder). Considering all that I would be using is the plug, I've been thinking only in terms of "the plug". The LPGear AT95SE just might be the only game in town. At roughly $50 for a donner plug, well, it kind of makes you wish the screw was at least gold plated! (grin) You kind of surprise me with the shipped it Friday comment! Maybe it's coming by bicycle mail? As hard as those are it find, I sure hope it's not lost! Several years ago, the post office lost my income tax returns. I had a small return coming, and kind of forgot about it. Following year when I filed, I got notified that I had not filed for the previous year and had to pay a fine for late filing! Talk about pissed! Regards, Don |
Dear comrade, Dangerous undertaking for a (damn)foreigner but I am not able to resist: you screwed up with those screws. I, 'in the other side' as Raul is used to say, deed try to get rid of the AT 12S but nobody was willing to pay $40 for,uh, the 'treasure' with the mentioned screw. Thanks to your instructions I made my first transplant and discovered my 'hiden talent'. I should become a surgeon. The TK 7Su with the AT 12 S transplant 'got' the 80 micron 'pure' with only 1.2 g . My best tracking cart so far. I have listened to my 'reborn' TK 7 SU for anly one hour but 'it' sounded very promissing. Now I at last understand why Tom and Fleib are messing with those AT cantilevers.
With comrades greetings, |