Me too.
R.
R.
Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Recipe for finding an Astatic MF200: Simmer one audiophile over a low flame for two months, until there is a new flavor of the month cartridge here, and the MF200 is in the dustbin of history. Meantime, look out for long-forgotten flavor of another month: MF100. Stay tuned for upcoming be all and end all, MF300. |
Dear Lew, This is not a recipe but wishful thinking. My problem is this: I have somtimes difficulty to recollect the name of my mother but I know exactly all the 25 names of 'the cart of the month'. Only thanks to the fact that Raul is not well known in Germany I was able to get the AT 180 + 2x Virtuoso black on the German ebay. The strange thing however is that I have never seen Astatic's of any kind on ebay.de. But if the Germans are unaware of this brand then there must be something wrong with this brand? Raul is also only human, you know... Regards, |
Hi Nandric, I have the Astatic MF100. It had been previously owned by Raul. I concider it amoung the very small group of best I own! The music just flows from it like water. In conparision to our Virtuoso black, I would describe the MF100 as it's equal. Different in a more romantic way, whereas the Virtuoso would be more dynamic. Beauty vs. Bold it that makes any sense. BTW, it your are interested, there is a MF 300 on ebay (US), just listed. Regards, Don |
Don, did you have to go and spoil my recipe? The MF100 was fading from memory slowly. I was preparing my attack carefully. But NOOOOOO; you had to throw salt on my ice cream, water in my coffee, basil on my soufflé. Truthfully, I am stuffed. Could not digest another cartridge if my life depended on it. On the other hand, I thought I over-stepped when I purchased the Grace Ruby, did not need it, had too many already, was getting ready to re-sell it without an audition, and even at a loss. But then I fell in love... I suppose the same thing could happen all over again with the MF100/200. |
Hi Lewm, I hate to throw more salt into your open wound but let me give you something to think about. If I had to choose between my Grace F9E and the MF100, I would have to keep the Astatic. I have other cartridges that give a similar musical presentation as the Grace. The Garrott Bros. P77 comes readily to mind, also the Andante P76, but the Astatic is in a class all by its self. Of my 40+ cartridges, the MF100 is unique! Regards, Don |
Dear Lewm: Again, IMHO the Astatic MF-200 is a must to have. Certainly other cartridges like your Grace Ruby are more easy to find out, even my MF-100 was more easy to get that the MF-200 or the MF-300 and things are that IMHO in the Astatic MF series crown belongs to the MF-200. I bring " here " the MF-100 and I can't remember whom bring ( lately ) the MF-200 but I say: thank's for that because this lovely " window " was closed and unknow for many of us. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Lewm, This is only my experience but I very recently sold my (allegedly, 'top of the range') Astatic because of its inferior performance compared to my best cartridges. Others obviously feel otherwise and you can still find them occassionally coming up for sale (mine came from Canada and was sold to an American). Such is the joy and variety of life. As always... |
Hi Dgob,'Such is the joy and variety of life'. I myself enjoy in particular to contradict others. So I intended to write some critical remarks about your insufficient arguments against our most important cart authority. But then I realized that any doubt about Astatic's MF 100 or 200 is actually in my interest. So, as I already stated, Raul is also only human. Regards, |
Don, By using the phrase "flavor of the month" or similar, I for one do not mean to dismiss the particular cartridges that got that label. Most all of them that i have been able to sample are in fact superb. My point is that one can live happily with any one (or two?) of many of these cartridges, that while I believe they all sound subtly different from one another, more than one can be truly "great" or "exceptional". So it is not a tragedy not to own any one particular one of our collective favorites. I just bought a second Ruby from eBay, with a broken cantilever and no stylus; I intend to send it off for a ruby re-tip to see what effect that has, compared to a fully original one. Should I send it to SoundSmith or Axel? Should I stick to elliptical stylus or try a line contact type? Meantime, I am tending to rank the Grace Ruby ahead of the Acutex LPM320. Cannot say where the Stanton 980LZS fits with respect to the Ruby. Thanks, Dgob. The fact that your opinion differs so dramatically from Raul's and others is evidence that we all have very different systems and different tastes. |
Hi Lewm, So you are the one who won the Ruby! I was susprised at the low number of bidders. Congratulations! I had it on my watch list. I have to some how get off this merry-go-round. You are quite right in your statement "they all sound subtly different from one another". Without a direct comparison between any 2, I also would be quite happy (for life), with any of the flavor of the month cartridges. Your statement "So it is not a tragedy not to own any one particular one of our collective favorites", is the merry-go-round I need to get off of! |
I bid 2 bucks above his minimum opening bid and thought for sure that I would never win it, but that was all I was willing to pay for a Ruby that needs a rebuild. To my surprise, no one topped my offer. I think I have the addiction under control if I am only spending a couple hundred bucks every 2 or 3 months. Plus I have at least a half dozen cartridges and a few tonearms that I am preparing to sell, if I ever overcome my inertia. (This is what I would tell my shrink if I had one and if he were a Freudian.) |
No problem Lewm, And I share your view "that one can live happily with any one (or two?) of many of these cartridges". That is in fact the approach that I have pursued. I also did not intend to undermine the performance of the Astatic or its little siblings in my admission. It was just that I came down to a straight choice between the Glanz G5 and the Astatic. The former - although sharing many design characteristics - seems clearly superior when it comes to detail retrieval. I felt that fact gave me the option to further thin out my collection of cartridges, which I had been hoarding somewhat shelfishly. As I sought to suggest much earlier in the life of this thread, I also share your view about the complexity of what you call 'taste' and I've sought to indicate this with specific reference to research and publications around varying acoustic conditions at distinct venues. My view was that this is very relevant "if" one takes live performances as the criteria for assessing our hifi systems and the spiritual satisfaction that these can bring. I also feel that I share many of Raul's sonic objectives, although not necessarily all of his surrounding views. I suppose that is reflected in his direct impact on the early manifestation of my current set up. As always... |
There is a problem Lew, 'One can live happily with any one (or two)...' The problem is that 'the one who can' is usually somebody else. Consider Giacomo Casanova stating:' I could live my whole life with Silvia only'. Paraphrasing Casanova for your situation:'from the 4 TT's that I own I would keep the Kenwood (if forced ), from the 15 carts I would probable keep the Ruby , from my 5 tonearms I have no idea (yet) which one I should keep and reg. my electrostats I need first to fix my Beveridge and then decide.' Well I hope for you that there is some Freudian shrink in your neighbourhood who will seriously listen to such confessions. Now the opposite of the Casanova kind are those who really believe in 'the right and the only one'. I noticed for some time already that the Glanz 5 is such a kind of a 'unique being' worth to spend the rest of ones life with. This 'choosen one' got its own thread btw. Strange however that 'Casanova' and the opposite one are able to reach such a consensus. Regards, |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " My point is that one can live happily with any one (or two?) of many of these cartridges, that while I believe they all sound subtly different from one another, more than one can be truly "great" or "exceptional". So it is not a tragedy not to own any one particular one of our collective favorites.... " +++++ all this statement is far away to be true, you as other people including me CAN'T LIVE WITH ONE OR TWO!. If your statement be true you and any one else own only one or two and the fact is that no one of us own only one or two cartridges and you know the reasons behind this fact. Even the persons that are LOMC advocates owns several cartridges because today many persons owns several tonearms. In the other side " I believe they all sound subtly different from one another, " this is one of the reasons to own several cartridges. I remember your posts in the past where you " swear " you won't buy any single cartridge again and after those posts you follow buying more cartridges and I'm sure that if you see one cartridge you like then you will buy it. Btw, I don't know which Astatic MF model Dgob is refereing to but IMHO is very hard to believe that any one with a MF-200 could put it as an " inferior " performer against other top MM/MI cartridges other that a wrong set up or a cartridge sample out of specs that could happen due to its vintage state. Anyway, I love the MF-200's distortions. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Well, Nikola, you got me. I am guilty of all you say. But I don't own a Glanz cartridge and never heard one. And from my ~10 cartridges, I would probably keep six of them, not just the Grace Ruby. I believe Casanova would have said, "Love the one you're with". Compared to owning boats or collector cars or chasing women, it's a relatively cheap passion. |
Dear Raul, I agree with you about the Astatic MF-200. In particular I admire it's ability to portray a level of musical nuance that goes missing with some other 'top' vintage cartridges I've tried. This thread recently reminded me to enjoy it again, and I over-dosed on chamber music for a week or so before getting back to my Stanton 881S audition... The Astatic remains among the small handful that I have kept for the longer term and it's hard for me to imagine selling. Jim |
I have been enjoying the Shure ml140he for not more than 5 hours when the flavor of the month (sort of) pops up on my screen. Why am I so fickle? Hopefully, a mf 300 cartridge with mf 200 stylus is as good as the flavor of the month. I read somewhere that the mf cartridge bodies are all the same. True? |
Dear Banquo 363, I was sure that you are refering to MF 300 which we all, I assume, have seen. But this one is listed for the second time. But when I looked to your 'flavour of the month' I was perplexed to see the MF 200. How I missed this opportunity I have no idea. I check ebay.com, ebay.uk and ebay.de each day. On the other side one can see Rauls influence. He deed not recommend the MF 300 so for this one there was no interest at all ($99). The MF 200 was probable listed for a single day? If so the seller also missed his opportunity. Regards, |
Dear Nandric: Perhaps you'll appreciate the following. I had a personal rule that had prohibited me from acquiring another cartridge, and it 'worked' for a year or so. The night before though, I went to sleep after having read the TAS's review of the AT 150mlx. I must have dreamt about cartridges all night long because when I awoke, I had a running fever to buy a cartridge. That fever, in conjunction with the general one induced by this thread, caused me to hyperventilate and violate my principle when I saw the mf200. From this we can conclude 2 things. As a general rule of thumb, don't go to sleep after reading a glowing audio review. Secondly, passion is motivationally stronger than principle and the only reason my principle 'worked' for a year is because the fever wasn't strong enough. As a corollary, we can't be trusted to act on rules of our own devise. Kant must have been wrong then to make that the foundation of morality. The cartridge I got is not exactly a mf200 but rather a hybrid. If Mike is right (thanks, Mike), then the value is not quite the same. If the cart doesn't measure up, then the search is on for a mf200 body. |
Dear Banquo363, The remorse is a dreadful feeling to live with but as good forum buddy I am willing to help... Raul, Is the stylus difference between the MF 200 and 300 such that MF 300 should be regarded as a sub-top cart? I noticed not only difference between styli shapes but even more between the styli quality qua polishing work done. Regards, |
Hello Nandric, The Astatic MF200 is shibata, and the MF300 is elliptical. In my comparison the MF300 is the more lively of the two. It gives up a little in refinement/resolution but not a giant step down. I preferred the MF300 on some recordings and moved back and forth with the different presentation between the two stylus. If I owned the MF200, the MF300 stylus can be had relatively cheap. The MF200 is harder to find. I would like to hear Raul's take on the MF300 with his torture test. He originally said the Astatic MF 200 and 300 were just below the best, but that was 3 years ago. Danny |
Hi Raul, I have a question for you. I picked up a SOTA Saphire TT from an estate sale. I have requested a shipping carton from SOTA Industries so that I can send it to them for their latest upgrades. It did not come with a tonearm. My question to you is how close are you to bringing to market, your tonearm? Regards, Don |
Dear Danny, thanks for your info. My assumption is that the cantilevers are different. I am not much impressed by the Shibata styli btw. Your statement 'If I owned the MF 200 , the MF 300 can be had relativly cheap' is confusing for me. First your comparison imply that you own both and, second, that the styli for the MF 300 are easy to get? But I hope that Banquo 363 will get his (strong) will back, get rid of his MF200 (to me) and live further in accordance with all Kantian imperatives.Then he can be proud of him self and I will declare that he has the strongest will among us all. I myself intend to join Lew with existentialism because this movement is much more liberal than Kant in moral issues. Regards, |
Dear Danny & John, It seems to be obvious that we expect that the MF 200 stylus should be better than MF 300 stylus. Assuming that Raul is right regarding 'the same generator' what other explanation is there for the difference? I think that we are right to assume the importance of the cantilever/ stylus combo because those are connected with physical properties of both and those are objective. I am not sure about physical properties of diamonds but there is no question about that their quality is related to the care and knowledge with which they are made. Now J. Carr mentioned as advantage of aluminum cantilever the fact that no glue is needed to fit the stylus while all 'exotic cantilevers' need some kind of glue to be fitted. However there are also other important properties involved and that is why he uses boron for his cantilevers. When Raul tested his Virtuoso black for the first time he was very suprised with the quality of this cart. But he also posted this cart to Peter Ledermann(?) for the upgrade. This means that he also assumed that some other cantilever/stylus combo will improve the cart. If I remember well Peter told him that the original stylus in the Virtuoso was 'mediocre'. But this imply that the Virtuoso was an exceptional cart even with an 'mediocre' stylus. Regarding the cantilevers I made an provisional list with aluminum cantilevers: 1. All Ikedas with FR 7f, etc. included; 2. Miyabi (both models); 3. Kondo Io (Audio Note); 4. Magic Diamond (Andreoli). All those carts are very highly regarded by the 'connoisseurs'. But I must confess to be confused with this result because the assumption that the 'exotic' cantilevers are (physicaly) better is not refuted. Regards, |
Dear Acman3: ++++ " He originally said the Astatic MF 200 and 300 were just below the best, but that was 3 years ago. " ++++ I will try the MF-300 next week because now my system is " out of work ". The MF-200 is perhaps the better tracking cartridge I sawed, it is the only cartridge I tested that pass cleanly my tests procedure and this gave it along the whole design its very high quality performance level. Easy: the MF-200 always is in touch/contact with the grooves in better way than other top cartridges, this fact IMHO is an advantage. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Jbthree: Good that you own both Astatic cartridges for as you say compare performance in between. Acman3 comments on this subject were almost with no superiority from MF-200 over MF-300 but that for some kind of music he prefers one model or the other. This means both are very good. Acman3: could you tell us if during your Astatic comparisons used both stylus in the same cartridge or each stylus with its own cartridge body?, thank you. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
I think it boils down to the fact that what you hear when listening to a record is the sum of a myriad of factors that govern the sound quality. And to make it more complex, those factors interact with each other in unpredictable ways. Therefore, the correlation between this or that cantilever material and sound quality may be understandably poor. By the way, not everyone thinks the Magic Diamond is so highly regarded. And I thought the TOTL Miyabi cartridges use Boron, but evidently I am wrong. |
Regards, Nandric: For discussion purposes, consider Young's modulus: "The bulk elastic properties of a material determine how much it will compress under a given amount of external pressure. The ratio of the change in pressure to the fractional volume compression is called the bulk modulus of the material. The bulk modulus of a solid influences the speed of sound and other mechanical waves in the material, it also is a factor in the amount of energy stored in solid material. For the description of the elastic properties of linear objects like wires, rods, columns which are either stretched or compressed, Young's modulus can be used to predict the elongation or compression of an object as long as the stress is less than the yield strength of the material." (Copy/Paste.) These concerns are reflected in comments from the successor to Peter Pritchard about the ADC RZL (IIRC) stylus assembly. With this designed by committee assembly the stylus was shared with the Astrion but eventually the assessment was the cantilever lacked rigidity and as a consequence transitions were slurred and definition suffered. My minimally informed understanding is that with MM cartridges capacitance & resistance are adjusted to take advantage of mechanical resonances. A short list of other approaches include various materials used in the assembly, potting, damping, wether the cantilever is sleeved (mass & interruption of line transmission of resonance), tapered, resonance reductions through coatings, platings, vapor depositions or anodizing, and of course, carefully matched styli. It might be appropriate to anticipate an al. cantilever will, similar to stylus profile, demonstrate certain characteristics but having an al. cantilever or ellipt. stylus is no guarantee of a cart's superiority. Stereotypically MM's exhibit a mid-range slump, the carts you've listed are all MC's which are generically considered to have a rising hf response. Cantilever construction or loading is surely a component in voicing each. Presume a person has 4 turntables, five tonearms and fifteen cartridges. 4 x 5 x 15 = 300 possibilities. Additionally, headshells, IC's, and ancillary equipment also make their contribution to what he'll hear. It's no wonder the debate over "best" continues. In this regard, reflection on that rascal Voltaire's comment "Best is the enemy of better" adds a valuable perspective. Some might tend to be attracted by the character of LC styli on beryllium, ML or ME on boron, minature ellipt. on thin-wall al. or any of several lab created crystal cantilevers & etc. Thoughtfully implemented, any of these might be considered reference quality but it is unlikely any two will sound precisely the same. Several years ago Peter L. (SoundSmith) responded to a question regarding upgrading a perfectly good F9-E to the universally acclaimed ruby by commenting that it might not be heard by all as an improvement to the al. cantilever. When listening to a F9-L, it's euphonic nature in comparison with more analytical cartridges is always a charming and welcome alternative, an entirely subjective demonstration of emotional response in preference to measured response. Peace, |
Dear Professor, Your lecture is as usual impressive and scientific founded. I own the AT 180 and the Signet 9 CL and am really stuned by their cantilevers. They look as if no cost and effort are saved to design and produce them. But I think that at present the situation is different. All cart producers and retip services order the cantilevers with styli already fitted from their suppliers. By the most MC carts one can see the dominance of the boron cantilevers. The cheaper carts all use aluminum cantilevers while only some use ruby and beryllium cantilevers. So actually the producers of styli and cantilevers determine what is available. Or, to put it otherwise, the demand will determine supply so no wonder that the price difference between boron- and aluminum cantilevers is not worth mentioning. This however does no apply for the styli. By Axel ,for example, the Shibata is twice as expensive as the nude line which is twice as expensive as conical, etc. As I mentioned in my post about Gyger the production of styli is very complex and hardly profitable so I assume that there are only few producers. Regards, |
Regards, Nandric: Hi, Nikola! In a purely conversational mode, here's some more to toss around, this from Dual in the '70s when everyone drank the low-mass koolaide: "The high inertia of a typical tonearm-cartridge combination with a total of 18gm effective mass causes a stylus to dig in when riding up a warp and to take off when riding down. Tracking angle and tracking force can vary as much as 30 percent(!) and a warp as little as 1.5mm can cause distortion of up to 2.7 percent. (---) "Tracking the same 1.5mm warp with a tonearm of 8gm total mass reduces this same distortion to 0.01%, that's 270% less than that produced by the typical tonearm. Not only is the overall sound audibly improved, but stylus and record life are significantly extended." All appropriate "caveats" apply to the marketing propaganda quoted above. I've several styli intended for the Signet AM20me, a miniature elliptical on a thin-wall al. alloy cantilever and it performs wonderfully. One of my favorites but when considering the contact area of the stylus then accelerated record wear when compared to LC/Shibata/Gyger or the spectacular Ortofon Replicant (100um major radius) is a concern. Due to various criteria, some defensible and some not, a LC stylus with a healthy major radius mounted on a be. cantilever has become a first choice. Oh!, the sacrifices we vinylistas make. Have you listened to the TK9LC yet? Peace, |
Hi Tom, I bought a second Grace Ruby that is really like new except for the small detail that its cantilever was wiped out along with the stylus. I intend to have it rebuilt, most likely by SoundSmith. As you may know, they offer a ruby cantilever/line contact stylus rebuild that looks to be the best choice for the Grace. Do you have any thoughts on the sonic effect of going to an LC from the stock elliptical one on an original Ruby? Thanks. Anyone else can chime it, too. |
Regards, Lew: Just a small detail, you say? Reminds me of the '56 DeSoto a guy tried to sell me many, many years ago. "Just a rod knocking" said he. Just finished listening to Willie Nelson's 1978 "Stardust" with the F9-L, a delightful combination. Don't laugh, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool Willie fan but this one is very nicely recorded in a "you are there" way, Columbia #JC35305 mastered by Bernie Grundman. Booker T. Jones does piano and organ on classics like "Stardust", "Georgia On My Mind", "Blue Skies", 'Moonlight In Vermont" and "On The Sunny Side Of The Street". Lively bass, crisp brushes on the cymbals, plinky nightclub piano and Willie just strumming along, it's all good. I'm a self-confessed midrange junkie so when the F9-E dies, and since to my ears it seems a little forward in the hfs, it'll then get the LC/ruby fix. Check yr email. Peace, |