Hello Raul and Stltrains,
With a fair amount of trepidation I ordered two NOS Empire 4000D/III original styli from the Bluz Bros. and that's exactly what I got. Thanks, they had both the original (brass arm) and the Gold styli and without your knowledge and information I would never have known what to ask for.
I think when dealing with the Bluz Bros. it is important to be very specific about what you want and ask lots of questions about what they have. A fellow named Alan, "the tech guy" was extremely helpful and knowledgeable. He told me a story about one customer who sent back the brass arm model to exchange for the one pictured on the website.
Finally I get to hear this cartridge! It came with an Empire TT but the original stylus was broken and I had been using an Astatic D/II replacement; not bad but nowhere close to the OEM Empire D/III. Thanks Again!
John
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hello just a few things noted by having the approximate amount of AS added to my micro. speed across the lp is constant and thats a real good thing. and maybe a good way to have an idea that your AS is set correctly. music is solid wide full tight and just sounds great. additional fine tuning on the fly totally removed sibilance. i think i like this AS what a novel idea. just kidding of course this discussion has been informative and another of those dont rap it if you aint going to get up and try it.
i should get a get out of jail free card for my professing that AS was not needed due to having applied anti skate when i thought there was none.
my triplaner has self inflected wounds and will be taking a trip to the land of lakes later on today. tre as mentioned one of the best in audio.
rock and roll is here to stay mike |
Dear John, There are two different reactions possible in the case of an succesful 'experiment': Heureka! for the theoretical kind of guys and 'it works!' for the practical kind. The last mentioned kind may not care about the question: why? But even if they deed it would not result in some 'theoretical insight'. There is this division of labour you know. Regards, |
Dear Nikola, It may comfort you to know that in the one course in Philosophy that I took in college, I had a very serious young Swiss professor who was very strong on Martin Buber (I and Thou) and Kant. I know that I read The Critique of Pure Practical Reason, and I wrote a paper on it which is still in my possession, somewhere. I remember more about Kierkegaard and Sartre and read them independent of course requirements, for years, because like many in my generation, I decided I was an Existentialist. I did not then realize that consciously acquired labels often lead to permanent ideologies. Thus, while I believe there is a skating force, at heart I don't give a damn. |
Timeltel, You quote me out of context, not even a complete sentence, and change the meaning. It wasn't a command, it was a request. You omitted the word please. ""address further comments on this subject to someone else." is not exactly what I said. I believe that you also attributed statements to the wrong person once or twice. I don't want to hassle about this nonsense. I'm interested in concepts or finding out about specifics, like carts I've never heard. If you're not sure who said something, perhaps it would be more productive to talk about the concept, rather than who said it. This is just a suggestion. I see you're an experienced poster and not a noob. You're also a skilled writer and that's why I sometimes find your approach objectionable and counterproductive. If I made a reference/joke that you find snide, it wasn't intended to make fun of you and I apologize if you took it that way. Funny, I feel the same way.
I have a working knowledge of AS and and basic understanding of the forces involved. What would interest me is techniques for modifying arms for more precise application of AS, especially for diff parts of the record. The Unitrac arm is designed to be mounted so the pillar (not pivot) is 56 degree angle between spindle and rest position. If not, AS calibration is affected. Isn't that interesting? It really doesn't matter if centripetal force is responsible, or you need Susskind to explain. It would be nice to know, but not as important to know whether it's an earthquake shaking the house or a bus going by. Regards,
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Dear Lew, The Dutch are collectivly convinced that the Germans have no sense for humor. However I deed find some 'high level' contra examples: 'Wenn Theorie und Praxis ubreinstimmen dan sind sie wahrscheinlich beide falsch' ( If theory and practice coincide then both are probable false). The other one is: 'it is so easy to refute a philosopher the only thing one need to to is read some other'. I myself unconciously acquired Marxian ideology but since I discovered Frege I am only wrestling with statments made (aka their logic).Regarding the SF. Years ago I solved the problem with the help of a groovless LP side. You can see with your own eye how the centripetal force works. I got then with my Ortofon MC 30 S + FR-64 S 90 micron without any distortion from the R channel (aka the buzz). This result made me a happy as well as a proud man. But some time later I come the warning by Van de Hul across. The mesage was : you will destroy your LP's this way. Well since then I have no idea how to adjust my SF. I put 4 of those O rings on my Triplanar and pretend to have solved the problem. Pretending btw seems to be a very important social skill.
Regards,
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All one other note that eric shared on AS. Notice the arm as it leaves the last grooves and starts on the open travel. The arm should appear to almost slow down and track slowly to the lockout. Between this and more acute speed across the entire record seems to put AS in the ball park.
The readings on wally skater helped with visual and parallels items above.
For the simple minded and hopefully not to arrogant to learn something new. mike |
Regards, Raul: From the Boston Audio Society, 08-04-'80, this may be of interest : "Bauer in the early '60s,--- found the VTA of most cartridges too high (average 28 o ) to match the then current 15 o standard. With the change to an 18 o standard, matters were moved in the right direction, but the average remains too high. A few notable exceptions occur among the data: cartridges measuring 20 degrees or less include all the Denons, the Audio Technica AT-15Sa, the EMT, an Ortofon MC-20 that was tracking at 1.75 grams but not one tracking at 1.45 grams (and not the Ortofon moving-magnet models), and the Stanton 681EEE (but not the 881S). In addition, a Signet TK-7E and an NAD moving coil were around 22 degrees. Shure models measured 28 to 32 degrees, and the Sonus models were the worst at 32 to 38 degrees. Note that tracking force changes the deflection of the cantilever, and therefore the VTA. Accordingly, Table 2 gives both VTA and tracking force. The audibility of changes in VTA is still under argument. The Sonus cartridge in sample 24 had 0.8% IM distortion at 32 degrees and 4% at 16 degrees. Whether this is significant on musical material cut at normal levels is unclear. It does not predict the subjective effect claimed by believers in the critical nature of VTA, namely that too high a VTA produces a bright, harsh sound while too low a VTA makes the cartridge sound dull. It is nevertheless interesting that the moving coil cartridges, which have a reputation for smoothness and transparency, have as a class much lower VTA than most of the moving magnet designs, although VTA is not the only possible explanation." Considering the usually meticulous reports from the B. A. S, that SRA is not mentioned is curious. Both "turntable clinic" edition are worth skimming over. http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-08-04-8001b.pdf, pg. 24. and concluding: http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-08-05-8002.pdf here. Peace, |
Regards, Stltrains: My last (ever) comment on AS. Fleib, as has Nikola (between the lines of his wry Balkan "humor"), suggest that an inspection for cantilever deflection as the arm is queued down would be a good idea. There was a photo offered on A'gon several weeks ago, the cantilever was permanently skewed from incorrect AS. No recollection if it was from too much or too little.
Finally took the P8ES out of service, listened to three sides of Jeff Beck "Rock 'n' Roll Party", excellent quality vinyl but no "live recording" ambience. Back to the Signet TK7LC, fell in love (or lust) with Imelda May singing "Walking In The Sand". OoWhee!
Peace, Love & Barry Manilow |
Hello timeltel yea i to believe that horse needs to be put down.
Havent given p8e a spin as of yet. Im stuck on acutex 320 and right now ELP Pictures at an Exposition nice UK pressing is most certainly pleasing the senses.
Enjoy Mike |
Dear Professor, I do try to be humorous and I can assure you that this is not an easy task. But it is all in the game because succes is in no way quaranteed in advance. However I am not aware of any 'wray Balkan humor... between the lines' which is any way connected with the 'cantilever deflection as the arm is queuded down'. I never used this kind of expressions in my life, not to mention in this thread. As Fleib already mentioned you are ascribing some statements to persons who deed not made them while I also had the impression that you are not a careful reader of the post of others. You may have some authority problem but I can assure you that I am totally insensitive for any kind of authority whatever. To me only the statements made are relevant independant from the question by whom they are made. That is to say provided that I understand what is stated.
Regards, |
Sometimes a slightly skewed cantilever can be corrected by using max VTF and corrective AS, in opposition to the skew. I've successfully done this a couple of times. My results indicate you must catch it early, before it gets extreme. Sometimes it doesn't work. I'll only suffer with that on few old records. You can also physically move the cantilever with your finger or plastic tool, to see how bad it is. With hi cu carts sometimes a small angle is really no problem or easily corrected.
Timeltel, maybe we can put this behind and move on? Regards, |
Regards, Nandric: Having a "wry" sense of humor refers to a dry or ironic humor, your post was delightfully endowed with both. If I may remind you of your reference to the VdH warning about destroying records through excessive AS? Observing the orientation of the cantilever is a reasonably effective method of verifying this is not a concern.
"Reading between the lines" refers to a situation when there are inferences beyond what has been actually written or said. An example of such might be if someone were to listen to my ancient rig & then say "I've never heard anything that sounds quite like that". ;-)
As to "authority", I confess there are occasions when I reserve the right to make up my own mind. Nikola, I frequently fail to remember that not all contributors on this forum are familiar with American idioms. Please forgive my oversight. Peace, |
Regards, Fleib: Did you read the copy from the B.A.S. above? It relates cantilever angles differing by almost 25*, the writer seems to suggest that 20-22* is best. I read years ago that cutting angles varied from one machine/producer to another through the mid 70's, however this relates to SRA.
Correct me if needed but IIRC, in 1974 (+-) the RIAA adopted 22-24* as standard VTA & 92* for cutters. Any thoughts on why (other than standardization) the writer places so much importance on the angle of the cantilever? Yes? No? Just curious.
BTW, for those interested in such, lots of charts, graphs, specs, hints & testing procedures in the two "turntable clinic" segments linked above.
Peace, |
The 'Italian proposition' was: 'mister the pope is impossible but we have a very beautiful cardinal for you.' I wrote this to Raul as a kind of introduction for my question about the 'second best' choice because the Technics 205 mk4 and the AT ML 180/OCC were impossible to get. Two weeks ago I got the AT 180 but, alas, was not very impressed. That is to say that my Virtuoso black with pressure fitted nude line diamond in a aluminum cantilever sounds better. Anybody else with experience with the AT180?
Regards, |
Dear Professor, I have no idea if the 'cantilever deflection' is an American idiom but the advice to watch the deflection by the AS adjustment is like giving advice not to forget to turn the TT on.
Regards, |
Dear Fleib, 'a slightly skewed cantilever',etc. I think that slightly or otherwise skewed cantilever has more to do with the centering of the cantilever then with the causes like the AS or the 'centripetal force'. The usual max. for the AS on the tonearms is about 2g. I assume that every cart-producer will anticipate this amount by his design. BTW 'çentering' means also that the cantilever should always return to the previous position. Skewed on the 'other side' should imply that all of those who don't use AS will regret their 'sin' and behave according to the AS rules. Now I hope that my statement will not be considered as 'inductive' but in 40 years that I am in this hobby I never had a skewed cantilever one side or the other.
Regards, |
Hi Nandric,
Your comment about never having a skewed cantilever one side or the other has susprised me. You are a lucky man Nandric! The AKG P 8ES Super Nova VDHII I just bought from Axel has its cantiliver skewed to the left when viewing the cartridge laying on its back! Poor AS set up has not caused this. Does makes it rather difficult to align properly!
Regards, Don |
Don and Nandric i have a AT 155lc with the same symptoms. makes alignment a real bear. Would love to hear this cart dont think its playable as is, was considering getting it fixed by Axel. Any thoughts on what would be best to move forward. Mike |
Hello Stltrains, Sounds like a good excuse to get another 155lc stylus before there all gone. Versatile stylus for AT and Signet. Then send to out when you are not listening to it.
Or increase or decrease anti skate for 1000 hrs on Kenny G album until centered.
Danny |
How does one go about setting up a cartridge that has a skewed cantilever? Do you square up the body, expecting the cantilever to follow when it is place in the groove? Do you square up the cantilever, ignoring the cartridge body position? I would assume that in the free sitting position (skewed cantilever position), that it is sitting centered between magnets/coils! If it aligns itself when it hits the record grooves, is it not then, out of align with the magnets/coils? If it does not align itself (squaring up with the body), when placed in the record grooves, then should the tip have been the point of alignment and not the squaring of the body during set-up? |
Hi Stltrains,
In regareds to your question as to where to send, there was a new name mentioned in this forum (Northwest Analog), that stated he does stylus straightening and coil repairs. I have been thinking abouts giving him a try. His web site looks rather impressive, as if that means anything! Perhaps someone has used him already and can chime in. I am a little disapointed in Axel shipping a cartridge to me in this condition. It's a VhD stylus. Perhaps VhD mounts the stylus in the stylus head? At this point, I just don't know. Just disapointed in what I received. Regards, Don |
Hello all, Does the Sonus Gold Blue cartridge have a higher than normal failure rate? I have purchased a NOS BG that developed a bad suspention within 20 min. and instead of repairing, purchased another NOS Blue Gold, from a different vendor,which after installing has a bad right channel.
The only good news is that I put the good stylus on the good body and if this stylus holds up I will have a NOS Sonus Blue Gold. Initial impression is "ok". We shall see. |
Hi Don and Mike, I am suprised to see that Axel delivered such a Super Nova specimen. You should write to him and ask for the readjustment. I have some idea how MC carts are centered but have not a clear idea how this is done by MM carts. Those probable have different kinds of centering. But I know how the cantilever holder for the P8ES Super Nova looks like and think that some correction of the rubber ring and cantilever will be needed to correct the centering. This is 'one point' centering so it seems obvious that at this point (aka the hole in the thin plate) the correction should be made. I asked Axel if he was familiar with AT carts and his answer was affirmative. So Mike you should also ask Axel if he can correct your AT 155 lc.
Regards, |
Hey Danny is Versatile a vendor for replacement stylus maybe a dumb question. I believe going the replacement route is the answer kenny g no no.
Don will give northwest a look and thanks for reminding me i need to put them in my retipping group.
Nandric thanks for the input and i have been in contact with axel but never sent him a cartridge.
thanks guys mike |
LOL Aceman, 1000 hrs of Kenny G. Dude does not abide.
It seems to me there are different types of skewing, those from the factory and those as a result of incorrect AS. There are also different cantilever connectors to magnets or coils. Common sense dictates approach. A skewed cantilever on a new MC should be returned despite what any dealer might tell you. If it's very small amount you can align to the cantilever. Large amount of skewing in this case will limit excursion in one direction. In either of these cases no attempt should be made to alter factory orientation. If you have a small amount of skewing due to AS, sometimes you can successfully correct with orig alignment. Most HO carts have replaceable stylus and you might be able to see what's going on. If you're trying to correct a replaceable stylus you would align to the body or retain orig alignment. Inspection sometimes reveals the problem. I never try to bend a cantilever unless it's aluminum and it's for transplant. You only get 1 bend with alum, 0 bends with boron/beryllium. Regards, |
Prof, I just looked at the first file. It's 1980 confusing because cutterheads were calibrated in terms of VTA or cantilever angle. The standard changed from 15o to around 20o. Because of VTA variations in carts, SRA is really what counts. 2o forward of perpendicular or 92o is what's considered right for most modern records. For all records, this can vary by about 5o. Now they test VTA/SRA for intermodulation distortion and test signals of 60Hz and 4K, 4:1 ratio. You need an IMD tester and test record. Regards, |
Hello Stltrains, Turntableneedles are out so only place I know for sure is Stereoneedles. Not cheap but very good. |
Thanks Danny now i have to decide if its worth the money. I had hoped to give a listen to the ebay obtained 155lc on hand, Mike |
Regards, Fleib: Yes, I got that, but why so much emphasis on cantilever angle (VTA)?
"---found the VTA of most cartridges too high (average 28 o ) to match the then current 15 o standard. With the change to an 18 o standard, matters were moved in the right direction, but the average remains too high."
Again, a curiosity as to why the 20-24* range is hinted at as being preferable? There's a relation between cantilever length, angle and mechanical rise time/overshoot and a tendency for the cantilever to rotate in its suspension. I can't quite pin it down. Still (just) curious but thanks, anyway.
Peace, |
Prof, I guess in 1980 the gentlemen at BAS, and possibly most people, only thought in terms of VTA/manufacturer spec and/or level cart top. As you know VTA is angle of cantilever to record and not SRA. SRA will vary for any given VTA, cart to cart. It will even vary for shibata tip, 2o I think. I believe that by 1980 standards were already changing for VTA, hence their recommendation.
For those interested in AS calibration, the Analogue Productions Test LP has a track that looks more reliable than HFN LP. Apparently both ch are modulated at the same time to + 12dB @ 315Hz and you can adjust by ear for breakup to occur equally in both ch or not at all. Most tracks require test equipment. I've read that fr sweeps in both HFN and AP LPs are off. I don't know how much Wally costs. AP LP is 45 - $50. If you have an oscilloscope you can align your cart with it. Regards, |
Hello all at 179 went with nos atn 155lc and like danny said off it goes for an refresh/repair.
Spent a good part of yesterday evening and all day tring to get p100 to play los and no luck. Terrible playback no mater what i try. Headshells different alignments and more. Scratch that for now.
Mounted the p8es i ebayed a few weeks ago spent 45 minutes and rock and roll. I was leary if the stylus no problems there. Tracking at 125g slight rise in rear of course needed AS and wow nice cartridge. Playing asia steely dans fine lp and deacon blue is clear and total satisfaction. Yea music again
Happy sunday y'all Mike |
Dear Stltrains: IMHO the AKG is nothing les but an stellar performer.
If I remember you posted that was serviced recently by VdH and even that you just can't achieve a " decent " performance. My take is that that sample has a suspension trouble and if not fixed maybe over time you will be experience that " terrible " performance.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hello Raul yes thats what i was told on the stylus for le. When i lower it on to a lp the cantilever does not even budge. Is this how yours reacts when cueing. That suspension is tight. Mike |
Dear Stltrains: Certainly not, that cartridge suspension is out of work. Need to fix it.
Regards and enjoy the music, r. |
Raul&Mike, Are you talking about AKG P100 suspension? I have seen this cart only on pictures and just once on ebay for 2000 Euro. Assuming that Mike bought the cart for the 'similar price' it must be very frustrating to discovere defective suspension. |
Yes nandric seems ive had bad luck with two totl vintage cartridges. Very frustrating indeed and a large lesson learned.
Hearing what a p8es among others can deliver the music in a superior way for thousands less. my drive for ultimate sound needs to be reevaluated and fast or my wife is going to run me down the road. Hopefully i can resolve this sooner than later. :( Mike |
Dear Stltrains: Yes, this kind of experiences are always frustrating but the good news is that has solution.
Northwest Analog in England could be a good alternative to fix your AKG P100LE Axel and even SS could help too.
That cartridge is hard to get and now that you have it you need to make any thing around for it can works on specs again.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Mike, Raul give you a wide choice but to my knowledge Axel is specialist for the AKG and B&O carts. I assume that suspension repair will cost much less then a retip. Your disappointment may become a great joy. |
Hello Raul i just contacted bluebirdmusic vdh usa distributor to try and get some info on its repair. The cantilever is so very stiff alex said theres less than 100 hrs on it since vdh serviced it. Im sure vdh would remember if they serviced a p100 lately.
Do you think letting it sit not playing at 1.5g would loosen the suspension up. Maybe its still needs breakin but let me tell you this ive never heard a new or rebuilt cartridge sound that bad its truly unlistenable. Also ive never seen my fozgometer react when setting azimuth like with this cartridge cant even get it close. Using the first center test all three light come on weird for sure. I dialed in p8es in 5 minutes.
I have read yours and others comments on the preformance of p100 and sure would like to experience that sound and believe my system is capable of bringing out the best of what it can deliver. Thanks for the encouragement and if my trying to contact vdh fails i will look into your suggestions.
mike |
Hello Nandric yes i am hoping theres joy for sure. Right now this little p8es is rocking and rolling. Sometime you get lucky with these vintage greats and sometime you dont. Unfortunately this was a expensive unlucky unlike the at 155lc which came cheap.
My phone froze up while bidding last night for the signet 7Ea was the winner any of you guys. Thought the atn 155lc coming could have a duel purpose and give me a chance to experience timeltels fav. Maybe I'll get lucky next time.
mike |
Regards, Stltrains. Engaging. Hi, Mike. Not my best cart, someone might say a number of other carts I listen to are "finer", the P8E/ES, AT20SS, TK9LC with the ATN25 stylus, an AT22 or several others. Depending on criteria such as extraction of detail, rise time/overshoot & decay, I'd readily agree. Output of the above carts range from 2.0mV (Signet TK9Lc) to 3.5 (P8ES), transient speed and neutral presentation are commendable, their analytical/resolution of detail capabilities are excellent.
The TK7LC (or 7ea) is 5.0mV output, inductance (IIRC) 470mH and output imped./580 Ohms. Coils are PCOCC & hand wound, beyrillium cantilever and a very nice jewel quality nude stylus. Two things need to be observed. First is that in complicated or confused passages involving massed instruments, there is a hint of crowded transients. The second is an evenness in frequency response and fullness of timbre. The first of these qualities is related to higher output carts and is frequently noted, the second is related to both the very adequate output and the high level of QC in it's construction. The cart can be listened to for long sessions without a sense of being overly analytical or without calling attention to itself or supporting gear.
The AT7V is a near clone. PCOCC windings, coil inductance is 500mH, output imped. 650 Ohm. Upper-mids/hfs are slightly more forward without seeming noticeably bright. LpGear has it for $130 NIB, there is an AT7V offered on ebay this AM for $100 "never used", the OEM nude grain-oriented ellipt. stylus is also well received.
Perhaps because I've not heard the TOTL B&0 carts, the AKG P-100 or Tech. EPC-100C Mk. IV, the TK7Lc remains my "favorite" cart. It most certainly is engaging. The above specs are from memory, ignore or correct as appropriate.
Peace, |
Hello Timeltel yea if my phone didn't fail me i think i had a shot at tk7ea yesterday. Thanks for your fine thoughts.
So you compared at7v with your tk7 do the stylus assys match connection wise. You mention qc when it comes to tk7 and thats my q to bid my time for another tk7 to become available.
This sweet little p8es is a real nice suprise and sure does grow on you. Mike |
Dear Timeltel: Or the Astatic MF-200 or the CA Virtuoso Wood re-tipped or, or , or, etc. etc.....to many great cartridges still waiting for you and other people.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Regards, Stltrains: The AT7V will readily accept your 155lc styli. Not quite as full in the mids as the TK7LC though. The 7V is a NEAR clone, crisp and accurate but IMHO not quite as involving but then in general I prefer the lower inductance/output impedance carts, YMMV. The TK7LC compared to my P8ES, hfs are clear and presented with sightly greater apparency, warm mids and a very convincing bass. The AKG has a softer presentation in the upper registers, neutral but mildly recessed mids and strength as well as speed of transients in the bass, easily overlooked until focused on. Either cart gets out of the way of the music, the AT7V not so much.
Peace, |
Regards, Raul: El Diablo! (grin). Or something with Grace written on it, or ADC, or Shure, Empire, Azden, or, or, or----.
I did pick up, about a month ago, one each of the SAE 1000 carts. Neither is broken in yet but first impressions are the 1000e is preferable. Although I have a taste for the euphonic, the Line Trace version is at this time overly warm. Hopefully a premature judgement, perhaps with more hours on it the 1000LT will brighten up.
Peace, |
Timeltel: Yes, as I said to many gems waiting for us. So we still have and will have a lot of fun in the coming times.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Stltrains: Alex is the bluebird VdH distributor or is the man whom you bought it?
Yes, VdH should remember that cartridge but I don't think that due to the time already pass VdH could make a revision and fix it by free.
In the other side I agree with Nandric, Axel seems an expert on AKG so this is maybe the best alternative to fix that P100LE, cheking not only the suspension but overall.
The cartridge IMHO is worth almost any effort to " revive " it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Timeltel: Btw, I tested my AKG ES and overall is a good cartridge but I prefer the P8E. I know you own it too and maybe you coul give a try putting the time you already given to the ES. I prefer the 8E at both frequency extremes, I think there is where belongs the main differences.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hello Raul alex is foxtan on ebay thats who sold it to me. I contacted bluebird asking for assistance contacting vdh they offer no help said to contact my distributer.
It has been less than a year for the repair i was told. Waiting for alex to rerespond. I have to agree with you it will get repaired one way or another.
For now p100s little brother is doing a stand up job playing wish bone ash self titled side 2 handy driving bass clean clear vocals sharp electric guitar and rock and roll drums. I have raised the rear more and that was a good thing.
Thanks Raul for the post. Mike |