My handy measure is if it sounds good from the next room, it's ok. If it sounds BETTER from the next room, you might want to work on your rig a little...
LOL ! My wife believes it would sound better next door. She likes 70 db :^( |
Hi Raul, Elmore James was one of the strongest guitar players/singers ever. Jimmy Hendrix was greatly influenced and named himself after James when he first started out (Maurice James, Jimmy James). He also wrote the tune Dust My Broom. Most of his records are on obscure labels but there are several compilations. http://www.wirz.de/music/jamelmfrm.htm Regards, |
Hi Raul, I have an album pressed in Australia by Image Records called Anthology of the Blues:- the Legend of Elmore James....bought 2nd hand 10 years ago (original Kent 9001 from 1969) He was most influential in the invention of 'slide' guitar and played alongside Robert Johnson at times. He influenced Jimmy Hendrix and Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones as well as Frank Zappa. On the Beatle's song 'For You Blue' while John Lennon plays slide guitar....George Harrison says "Elmore James got nothin on this baby" |
Hi Fleib, no disagreement with your comments. However speaking for myself, I do wonder sometimes if I become so "involved" with the analytical side of listening that I forget the real reason I'm doing all this anyway. More than once I've ask myself if every change I've made in my audio system over the past 40 years was really as worthwhile as I thought it was at the time, shouldn't I be closer to a live acoustic music experience now? ;-)
BTW, listening to Weather Report is a favored experience for me -- no comparison to trains or thunderstorms. |
Hi Timeltel,
How about a Direct to Disc, 45rpm, Colectors Edition of Earl "fatha" Hines Presents ED GRAHAM "HOT STIX"
Why must you continue to embarrass me!
Regards, Don |
Ct0517,
"My wife believes it would sound better next door.
She likes 70 db :^("
I think I married her sister! Regards, Don |
Flieb,
"AT put gold coating on both beryllium and boron. I think they just recently stopped with the OC9III. I'm not sure what the reason was for the coating, maybe durability. Both those materials are brittle and break easily."
You may have hit upon what the answer to my question is. My coating is not gold in color, but more of a silvery gray. It deffinitly is brittle because I can see spots where it has flaked of leaving the bare tube. That is why I am convinced it is some kind of coating. |
Hi Timeltel and Halcro,
I have ordered a ATN155LC with the intention of mating it with the TK5Ea. Timeltels latest comments pertaining to the TK3Ea/TK5Ea and the TK7 have me reevaluating if using the 155LC with the lower quality TK's would be the right way to proceed. I bought my TK7SU over 10 years ago and it came with a broken stylus. I bought a replacement #3 stylus and I currently have it put away (stored). Thanks to you Timeltel, I have the RS 180 stylus to use. While cleaning out my junk draw I discovered the original #3 stylus housing for the TK7SU. I'm now seriously concidering transplanting the 155LC into the old original #3 stylus housing and I would appriciate being walked thru as to what to expect in the project. IIRC, Timeltel, you have done this very thing. Looking inside the brown housing, I see what appears to be a white painted, slotted screw head. I assume that by backing out the screw, the broken remaining piece of the stylus will fall out. If this is correct, then I expect to see, and do, the same thing with the 155LC. It would then be a simple proceedure to just position the new 155LC stylus into the brown housing, rotate to align correctly, then tighten the screw. Is it really as simple as I have stated, or do I have this all wrong? Any information that you can provide would be much appriciated. It seems that all my high end stylus's are shabatas, other than the 440MLa that I have currently on the 5Ea. I would really like to hear the TK7SU with a Beyllium/LC stylus assy. instead of the shabatas. Thank you in advance for any guidance you can provide with this project and I'm looking forward to getting started with this.
Regards, Don |
OMG; I just spent an evening listening to June Christy using a (you should pardon the expression) "MC" cartridge I actually bought from Raul about two years ago, or more, the Ortofon MC7500. It sounded magnificent tonight on those old Capitol mono LPs (June Christy recordings). In fact, I never before appreciated how crystalline and delicate her voice could be when she wanted to convey the emotion of a song. I've been on the verge of selling the MC7500 several times, and then it puts on a stellar performance, and I can't. I am so happy to have a working system that sounds great (better than ever) that I may get over my obsession with cartridges in general. I've gotta stick one of my MMs in that tonearm (Reed 10.5-inch) and see whether it is the Ortofon I love or something else. Is there a special quality to wood tonearms? I think so. |
Dear Raul, Interesting (sarcastic) statement about ignorance. Well it may be possible to do something about that. So instead to use hazy terms like 'refreshing' I asked Axel how the suspension by a MC cart is (re) done. When I get his answer I will post it.
Regards, |
Regards, Griffithds: Don, the TK5ea is a good cart, it's pretty high in the AT/Signet lineup, the 155lc stylus will demonstrate it's potential. Don't be surprised if you find the performance of the 5ea/155lc combination gives you cause to reconsider the TK7SU/155lc transplant, listener's objectives vary. If you should later find a TK7ea or lca and already have the 155lc stylus, then you're good to go. If you want to experiment, then you're my kind of guy but before you begin ask yourself if you're really ready to risk destruction of a desirable, rare and relatively expensive stylus. This precaution is due to a value conscious nature derived from Scots ancestry, my fore bearers thought the stock market was something with a fence around it and 2:00 AM stock acquisitions were ;-) free.
Should you decide to remove the cantilever from the grip, be sure to remove all possible sealant from the well into which the compliance screw is threaded and especially the slot in the head of the screw. Use a precision screwdriver to back off the screw slightly, it doesn't need to be removed and I'd suggest that as the screw is either brass or soft non-magnetic alloy you reverse the screw repeatedly, don't try to do it all with one twist and two or so turns will do. Use a pin or other small rod to push the cantilever out from the back of the plug if it doesn't simply fall out. It's a very finicky procedure and somewhat stressful, you might practice with the old 7SU grip/cantilever stub first. It helps in establishing azimuth to view the installed assembly from the back, using a sight line relative to a flat portion of the grip and the top of the V-magnets as a reference. The compliance is determined by both the plasticity of the donut at the rear of the cantilever and the pressure with which it's seated against the plug so some longitudinal force will be required to induce pressure at this juncture before tightening the screw. Walk yourself, mentally, through the procedure several times and don't expect to get azimuth and compliance right the first time. When returning the grip to the cart, observe and make certain the magnets fit into the opening instead of contacting the cart shroud, mount the cart and then check it for VTF. You may have to do this repeatedly, if you hear extreme distortion, the v-magnets are contacting the coil poles so don't panic, you'll want to adjust the seating pressure. Those with three hands will find it much easier.
If you have an AT20 stylus it's a drop-in fit for the 7SU, you can audition the 7SU with a beryllium cantilever and the Super Shibata stylus, this will not prevent the return of the 20ss stylus to it's intended cartridge. I've not tried this as I'm pretty happy with the RS180 cantilever transplant, Raul did try the 20SS and thought there was some improvement.
Fleib might offer a few other insights. It isn't all that complicated but does require watchmaker-like precision, forethought and patience. I've been fortunate enough to be successful in the several transplants I've done, call it the luck of the draw.
Peace, |
Hi Timeltel,
"Don't be surprised if you find the performance of the 5ea/155lc combination gives you cause to reconsider the TK7SU/155lc transplant"
I had planned on using the TK5Ea to break in the new stylus assy. Your following comments have really got me thinking.
"If you should later find a TK7ea or lca and already have the 155lc stylus, then you're good to go."
The more I think about your above statement, the more I realize that I need to be alittle more restrained in my impulse decissions. You've made an excellent point and have got me looking at this quite differently. As you have stated, finding a TK7xxa version would give me a lot of additional options in the future for the ATN155LC stylus assy. Not just with the TK5Ea, but any future, new style AT cartridge I might buy. Mater of fact, there is a AT155LC body available on ebay right now. As you have pointed out, more options. Thank you for you imput and thoughtful reply. I appriciate being able to ask someone questions and get a reply that doesn't make you feel like you're being talked down to. Thank you very much! Regards, Don |
Regards, Griffithds: Curiosity piqued and because I'd not done it before, the ATN20SS on the TK7SU is an exact fit, required a little racking of the cart for crude alignment as the 20's cantilever is approx. 1mm shorter than the tapered RS180 cantilever and distortion was very evident. Hmmm. Sounds much like the AT20SS cart. It should, other than structural differences, the engine is the same. Next was a trial of the ATN20SS on an AT15S. In a rushed comparison, very much the equivalent. On a roll now, a Signet TK5ea with a stylus transplant from a Signet .3 x .7 nude on micro mass tapered alloy from a NOS AM20me stylus, a stylus I really like, it's performance is not far off from the ATN155lc stylus on the 5ea.
The AT15S with an ATN15XE is not appreciably different from the RS180 stylus, then a return to the TK7lca/ATN155lc, oh, yes!
The 7SU and AT20SS are on Orto. LS-6000 Japanese oakwood headshells, the AT15S on Yamamoto HS-3, boxwood. The TK5ea on the OEM EPA-250 HS, the TK7lca on a Yama. HS-1As Ebony shell. Other than for the TK7SU/ATN20SS, alignment was not altered.
Don, I hope this makes sense. A minimum of attention was paid to alignment, VTA was eyeball arm-level, VTF a universal 1.1gm except for the ATN20SS which was run at 1.4gm in each application. "Santana" and "Abraxas", "Aja" on the deck.
A quick assessment, full of faulty procedure and done in two hours instead of over several weeks. As each configuration was given about ten minutes, exception or varying opinion will not be contested. If you want to enjoy the 7SU as a 7SU, transplant the RS180 stylus to the OEM grip. With the 20SS stylus, you essentially have a zippo lighter sized AT20SS, might as well use it on a 15XE, 15Sa, 20Sla or 20SS cart, they're a whole lot prettier. The ATN15XE works in any of the above mentioned carts that accept the round plug and needs no modification, even on the TK7SU. The RS180 stylus transforms each into an upscale AT14/TK7SU, but as you know the grip needs to be clipped at the rear. The TK5ea is a good cart with the OEM stylus (the transplanted SAM-20me is a near match) but is bettered with the ATN155lc.
I hesitate to recommend but instead suggest you work with the TK5ea/155lc for a while and although the AT155lc cart has good references, the recent shuffling of carts/styli reminds me of why the TK7lca gets so much arm time here. Had a lot of fun doing something I should have done long ago, was pleased with the XE stylus beyond expectation.
Peace, |
Hi Timeltel,
Sounds like you had one hell of a fun day. Yes, it all made sense. I do have all (except the SAM-20me), of the cartridges/styli that you have experimented with including the 15XE. My arm is a Graham 2.2 with several wands,so I'm limited to what can be accomplished as far as tone compensation. Your Zippo Lighter comment made me laugh. I rather liked the way it looked. One of a kind, that's for sure. If you want to talk ugly, you should see my Denon 103R with a square Alum. aftermarket body. It looks like a gray boxcar or a ugly putter that you would use in golf, hanging from the end of the arm. With all the comments about loose fitting shells on the Signets, I chose not to trim out the rear sides (creating knotchs), as you recommended, and is required, but instead, using the XACTO knife, I just scrapped the inside rear just enough to allow the shell to fit over the cartridge body. It is one of the tightest fitting removable stylus shells I now own. Much tighter than either of the #3 stylus's shells that I have for the TK7. For this reason, I think, for now at least, I will leave the RS-180 as is and not think about the transplant to the OMC grip. All the various "S" types of styli that are on the 15/20 series cartridges I've refered to as being Shabata. I notice now that some are refered to as Super Shabata. Is this a Line/Linear contact stylus. The "LC" as in 155LC that I have on order? If not, then what is a Super Shabata, or even what's a Miniature Shabata? I seen a Shabata refered to that as well? Are all the various names just advertising hype? Your comments on the 15XE is interesting. I have never even opened the box, but saved this for future use. Tomorrow just might be my fun day! Merry Christmas to ya Timeltel. Regards, Don |
Timeltel,
One thing that (after several readings of your AT comparision post), has become quite clear. The TK7LCa consistantly floats to the top of the heap. I'm going to have to get one some how. The various versions of the 7SU, including being used with the ATN20ss puts it close, but this isn't horse shoes, is it! The search continues.
Regards, Don |
Hi Timeltel, I've been reading this thread for a while and you seem to be knowledgable with Acutex cartridges. I was just curious if you would recommend the Acutex 412STR over 312STR. I have a Nottingham Interspace Jr. with an Ace Interspace arm. I'm just using a Nottingham Tracer 1 cartridge that came with the table. I'm just looking for an improvemnet without breaking the bank (I'm still in school). I mostly listen to Neil Young, Elvis Costello, Radiohead, The XX and occasionally to Sergio Mendes, Thelma Houston, etc. Thanks in advance. |
Regards, Rangefinder: Nice deck. Both are interesting carts, 312 stylus is clear diamond, tapered titanium cantilever. 412 slightly more forward, no lack of immediacy. Won't recommend one over the other, you'd really need to hear both to decide but the consensus seems to be the 312 is a bargain, you can hardly go wrong at it's price. Hopefully someone else will offer an opinion, more input might help you decide. Good luck.
Peace, |
Timeltel, thanks for your response. I forgot to add the 415 STR to the equation. Will it perform just as well or even better than the 312 and 412? I am leaning towards the 312 simply because it costs less. |
Hi Don
the Shibata patent specifies two needle widths (major radius) a small and a large one (45um and 75um)
The small shibata may be the miniature shibata you mentioned (ideally finding the stylus specs would help, check the major and minor radius...)
The small shibata sizing is quite similar to many HE styli, stereohedron and a number of other well regarded styli.
Due to the smaller major radius, the contact patch vertical height/length will be shorter. The larger the major radius, the longer the contact patch. (Widest one I know of is the Ortofon replicant at 100um)
I am not sure there is any advantage to the smaller shibata (and the other smaller major radius needles) - although they may be marginally more economical to manufacture... (less diamond mass required?) Seems to me that all the top styli are large major radius.
Anyone care to comment on advantages that might accrue to the mid size line contact designs?
bye for now
David |
Hi Griffithds, Wise move to hold off on transplants with a beryllium cantilever. They are every bit as tricky as Timeltel described, and then some. Guys like Soundsmith have special tools, clamps, and things like micro-comparators to make it much easier and it's still tricky. I'm not even sure it's possible to transplant a stylus with exotic cantilever from one series to another. Maybe it is, but I broke a few. Look at the bottom of the various AT carts, specifically the plugs and the angle of the cantilever. They seem to be different and this requires bending. Aluminum bends easily, but you only get 1 chance. Boron or beryllium break.
It's unusual that an AT cantilever (except some budget models) will differ in length, even by 1mm. Could a difference in VTA account for this? A steeper cantilever angle will seem like it's shorter. If a TK7SU is the same motor as a 20SS, then I think it's the RS180 that should be different. Your 155LC has a cu of 16 @100Hz and the 15/20 are 9cu. BTW, there are at least 3 or 4 different generators in the 15/20 series. Dlaloum has the details. I think Timeltel has credibility with these not because of this hurried comparison, but because of his experience with these Signets.
I don't know about your fascination with with a LC over a shibata. They're very similar. Maybe an LC is slightly more forward in the extreme top end. Yes, there are basically 2 sizes of shibata. The tip was redesigned and I believe the minor radius was reduced. Dlaloum can tell you about those details too. I think there are differences with some LC, FL etc. If you can find a 152 or 155ML stylus, that would be worth hocking your tractor for. The ML is the same as a micro ridge and significantly different from the others. AFAIK there are no micro tips when the 15/20 series or older Signets were current. If the TK7LCa is the more modern series, you could try ATN150MLX also.
Timeltel, is the impedance/inductance identical on 20SS and TK7SU? Are the Signet cantilevers really 1mm longer? Do you object if I occasionally end a sentence with a preposition? Regards, |
Dear David, In my post about Fritz Gyger I mentioned that 'economics' is related to the complexity of diamond polishing. The diamonds are laser cut in 'rods' which are longer then the actual stylus. Otherwise they will not fit in the holders for the polishing. In the first step all 'rods' are polished in the 'spheric' shape because this can be easily done by machines.In the following steps more complex machines are used for other shapes and polishing.The 'expensive kinds' are then (re)checked for quality and then cut to the lenght of the actual stylus. Van den Hul designed for Gyger 3 styli. The Gyger I was very difficult to produce (aka polish) so there was a considerable number of failures. That is why the Gyger II (still available by Axel!) and Gyger S are designed and produced. BTW the Gyger S seems to be very similar to Ortofon replicant (Fremer in rev. of A 90). Axel offers the so called 'rebuild Shibata' as well as 'nude Shibata'. I have no idea about either but the latter is much more expensive than the first mentioned. So my quess is that the nude Shibata is more difficult to produce. I also asked Axel about the 'micro ridge'. His answer was that those are patent protected by Shure and very difficult to get.
Kind regards, |
Hi Fleib,
measures specs from my TK7su and AT20sla
TK7SU 487ohm / 448mH AT20SLa 476ohm / 451mH AT20SLa 476ohm / 453mH
Within manufacturing tolerances they do appear to be identical.
BUT - different shape, materials, stylus mounting - they may have slightly differing vibrational behaviour.
Also the differing size/shape bodies may respond differently to potting. (although I expect differences would be slight)
I wish I had a truly high quality plastic bodied version of this generator (with perfectly matched channels like the AT20!) - I think the reduced mass in combination with some potting would result in a potentially better combination...
Thanks for the info Nandric...
This makes me thing that the rods are available in differing diameters - the larger diameters being used for the larger major radius styli, the mid size for the small shibatas, HE, Fineline, etc... and the smallest ones for spherical/conical and elipticals. (at respective price points...) In terms of labour, the Shibata appears to be one of the most economical high end styli - which probably explains its ongoing popularity...
The comment about the MicroRidge from Axel does not gel with other information I have read... The Microridge is Shure's proprietary name for the Namiki design (which does indeed have a published patent) - this is the same design which is used by Jico for the SAS and AT for the Microline. (and others) Apparently various versions of this design are available made to differing minor radius (and other) specs. Perhaps Axel has not succeeded in establishing a relationship with Namiki?
For those interested in much more detail about stylus shapes , patents and stylus related data - there is a thread on VE called "Stylus Shapes" - which is an absolute treasure trove of information.
bye for now
David |
Hi David, Flieb,
Feedback much appriciated. Thank you! Flieb,
" don't know about your fascination with with a LC over a shibata"
It's more of a curiosity than anything else. When I replaced the stylus in my Signet TK5Ea with the AT440MLa, I was rather taken back at the improvement that had transpired. Both have tapered tube cantilivers. Only difference was the stylus profile. My AT15's/20's and the TK7SU all take the same type of stylus assembly. They all have the same stylus tip, a Shabata. The top cartridges hitting the markets all seem to have the LC or ML type stylus's. Is it possible to elavate the performance of the above mentioned line of cartridges with a LC or ML stylus? The TK7LCa of Timeltel's seems to confirm my thoughts. I love my TK7SU. It being the "e" version (round post), allows me to swap stylus's with my AT15's and 20's. But my TK5 is the "Ea" version (square post). So I can not try the ML stylus (440MLa from the TK5 cartridge),assembly the my TK7SU. Timeltel has both versions of the TK7. Reading his latest post, the LC always rose to the top of the heap. I have a ATN155LC on order form Stereoneedles. I'm on the hunt for a TK7Ea to use with it. If someone would like to trade a TK7Ea for a Red Vurtuoso Wood (I have 2),I would like to talk with you! Regards, Don |
Hi David,
"there is a thread on VE called "Stylus Shapes" - which is an absolute treasure trove of information"
I don't know if I should say thanks, or Holy SH++! Better put on a fresh pot of Coffee!
Regards, Don |
Dear David, 'Speculation' is actually connection of different facts put as conjunction of statements together. Regarding stylus shape and relevance I discovered that Jan Alaerts is using Fritz Geiger S (FG-S), that Lukatschek by Benz also used FG-S (my Ruby 3S has FG-S stylus) and I assume that Van den Hul is also using FG-S styli for his carts. He does not produce styli but those by Gyger he designed and he has 'durable contracts' with both. So my 'speculation' also imply that this 'stylus shape' must be something special because it is used at least by three celebrated (MC) carts producers.
Regards, |
Regards, Fleib: Dlaloum (Hi, David) has answered one question. I checked the cantilever angle with a Sterrett adjustable protractor and for the 15XE, 20SS and TK7SU it's 22* unsprung. In lieu of hard data 20* at VTF seems realistic. Apprehensive about tool steel in contact with any of these styli, a micrometer was set to butt at the plug and from there to the full length of the 7SU/RS180 assembly. The 20SS is slightly shorter, the 15XE longer, difference is approx. 0.5 - 0.6mm total between the three samples. Other than alignment concerns, the three are physically interchangable but how this small discrepency affects the relation of magnets to pole pieces will have to be determined by someone with steadier hands, better vision and a supply of sacrificial styli. All pertinent cartridge surfaces are also parallel. It would seem unlikely there's any change in SRA, I'm willing to write off any differences as being within manufacturer's specs.
Please don't take any comparisons in a previous post seriously, was largely a "voyage of exploration" (dang autocorrect would have it "voyage of expiration", not quite there, yet. LOL). I need to listen with more intent for specific differences. YMMV.
Rangefinder: Artillerist, photographer, golfer? All three? Not personally enamored with the 415, sharp transients and it gains no bragging rights for dynamic swing. Does soundstage & layering well though, bass is pretty punchy. I understand you need to maximize your investment, ***the 312 is a bargain***. You might also take a detour to the AudioKarma Turntable Forum where the very reasonably priced AT95 is much praised, Stereophile Mag. gives it high marks too. With readily available replacement styli at various performance levels it's worth considering. Relative to stylus wear, the availability of the currently fashionable Acutex LPM 312STR 111 is finite, the current production AT95 will be around, apparently, for quite a while. Suggest you refine your objectives and decide if you want to experience a cartridge with current cache' and a very limited window of availability or invest in one that will get you well on down the road.
Peace, |
Hi David, I see the 7SU and the 20SLa share the same generator. I might be mistaken, but at one time I thought you had an AT comparison sheet for the 15/20 series. I believe the SS has 450 ohms? Maybe that's inductance and they are the same.
Yes indeed, the micro ridge has been used in Japan since it was invented, practically. Nakatsuka (ZYX) has been using them since the '80s. Regards, |
Hi Don, Consider yourself lucky with the 15/20 series and the old Signets with the round plug. At least there are some decent beryllium styli available. I was trying to transplant for the CA (3400) series and there's nothing really good. It's either Jico bonded, which aren't too bad or an AT 3400 series. I saw one with a alum/ML, but I'm reluctant to try. I've had better results with the ML and the exotic cantilevers.
I think that's part of what voicing is all about, finding the right combination of stylus/cantilever for a particular cart. My approach is somewhat different because I use loading, both resistance and capacitance, to optimise or try to, any particular combination. I have an orig 440 that I used to load at 32K, 100pF. I tried a 152ML (beryllium) and it was great at 47K. The cantilever probably contributes more to voicing than the tip. AT seems to be toning down some of its carts. The 33EV has an alum/.2 x .7 ellip, I believe. The OC9III has a boron/LC.
Timeltel, thanks for the info, I wouldn't have thought it. I didn't mean to slight your hurry-up comparison. I already knew you are very knowledgeable about Signet. Regards, |
Hi Fleib,
yes I have some spec sheets for the AT20 family...
The one I have that has the AT11/12/13/14/15ss/20ss quotes 450mH and 500ohm.
The almost identical one in the VE library which has the AT15SLa/AT20SLa quotes 370mH/500ohm
I have tried a few times via "the auction site" to purchase AT15 or AT20 bodies in the hope of landing a 370mH exemplar.
So far without any luck whatsoever!
With regards to LC vs Shibata - the difference is very very marginal - period Audio Technica catalogues specifically call it a modified Shibata. It appears to have a couple of front cuts/planes which may result in the contact patch being straight rather than slightly curved (similar to hughes/stereohedron shape?).
But the minor radius is about the same as shibata/HE and is not the much finer minor radius of the Microline/VdH/FG types...
With Shibata/LC/HE you have a minor radius of between 5um and 6um ... with the "exotics" (Namiki, VdH, FG) the minor radius is between 4um and 2um (most commonly 2.5um on current ones, the early ones such as the Shure Microridge had 3.5um)
So the Shibata/LC with the large major radius have all the advantages of the long contact patch, but slightly reduced resolution in the high frequency range... possibly increased distortion in the HF range. Is that increased resolution actually audible? - it is primarily above 15kHz- where even for those who can hear it, actual hearing acuity is reduced... and distortion, being primarily harmonic, may not be relevant as the 2nd harmonic would be 30kHz... and then up! The Ridge types however, will maintain that very narrow side radius as they wear down, whereas the Shibata/LC/HE types will have gradually increasing minor radius as it wears.
So the real difference may be in the way that it sounds not when new, but when 250, 500, 750, or 1000hrs old - where the more basic styli will have gradual deterioration (hard to notice.... bit like the slow boiling of a frog...) - while the exotics will perform up to new spec for a long long time, before suddenly deteriorating massively. (a better thing as it is easier to tell when it is time to replace the stylus!)
And I'm with Fleib with regards to voicing - it's the cantilever... and we can voice the end product as we wish by adjusting the loading. Which allows us to choose the cantilever and needle based on technical parameters (distortion, tracking ability, compliance, other...) - and then voice the way we like it. Previously all cartridges were "pret a porter" - with cartridge loading we can have our cartridge properly tailored.
bye for now
David |
Hi Flieb,
"The 33EV has an alum/.2 x .7 ellip, I believe"
Susprising! I've read some articles on the AT33 series that imply it's the greatest thing since shirt pockets. I quess it's all in the application of the parts. Yes, I do feel quite lucky with my stash of AT family of cartridges. Generally speaking, a person has to dump a rather large sums of money on MC's to exceed the performance of the 20ss/20SLa cartridges. That would of course, all depend on what you would concider performance. Timeltel's TK7/155LC pushs that dollar number even higher. I truly hope you enjoyed Timeltel's "voyage of exploration" as much as I did. I have reread his voyage several times and find it full of valuable information. Great read indeed!
Regards, Don |
Hi Flieb & David,
"Output voltage: 0.3M / Frequency response 15- 50,000 Hz / 100 ohms / 1.8 to 2.2 Grams Tracking Force Stylus Shape: MicroLineTM 0.3 x 0.7 mil nude elliptical"
The Audio Technica AT33EV stylus description taken from the JR music web site. F/R out to 50,000 HZ with a elliptical stylus? Is it a MicroLine? Is it an elliptical? Can it possibly be both? Why is there a Shabata profile if an elliptical can go out to 50K? What is that horrable smell! BS?
Regards, Don |
Timeltel, No, I'm not a golfer or artillerist, just a wannabe photojournalist. I ordered the 312 on ebay this morning, will also look into the AT95 for future reference. The thing is, the more I read about this hobby the more confused I get with all the new information and the longer my wishlist gets. Thanks for all your suggestion by the way. Vlad |
Hi Don,
you must remember the BS is a high quality fertiliser guaranteed to encourage growth...
And the welfare of the people requires a good economy with a lot of growth - ergo BS is a good thing...
0.3mil is roughly 7um 0.7mil is roughly 18um
It is a relatively "fat" side radius but well within the scope of what one might call the Audiophile category - especially given the nude solid diamond chunk they use! The quality of the upper AT needles is quite lovely under the microscope!
The 50kHz freq. response is a little bit pushing credibility with that stylus and cantilever though! Of course they did not specify at what level (achieving 50kHz at +/-25db is relatively easy, doing the same within +/-10db is quite difficult!) Nor did they specify what level of distortion is being generated at 50kHz... (and given the side radius, that is likely to be substantial!)
The advantage of line contact is that the load is spread over a wider contact patch, not the high frequency performance, as a Shibata has the same side radius (and therefore HF performance) as a 0.2mil minor radius eliptical.
BUT - because of the small contact patch, a 0.2mil eliptical is very likely to wear away those high frequencies, where a shibata (or other LC design) will spread the load and therefore reduce the wear.
When they started developing CD4 Quad, which required 50kHz within -15db, they found that with the eliptical needles wear was a problem, and they were rapidly losing the HF material after a few plays - the Shibata solved this problem. (As did its competitors the paralinears, hyperbolics, hyperelipticals, stereohedrons etc...)
I have difficulty with their applying the "Microline" tag to it as well - with a major radius of only 18um the contact patch will be a standard eliptical elipse - and nothing like a line of contact.
Audio Technica also have the AT33PTG (PTG = Prestige) - which they claim has a Micro Linear stylus... I have not seen them claim anything other than eliptical for the AT33EV (perhaps a typo on your source website??) According to the AT site, the cantilever on the AT33PTG is Tapered boron, probably gold sputtered same as the OC9 and AT150... On the same AT website they clearly state that the stylus is eliptical for the AT33EV and there is no mention of Microline...
I definitely think the website where you sourced that data is applying too much "growth factor".
bye for now
David |
Hi Griffithds, Just listed wrong. Audio-Technica AT33EV Cartridge Specifications - Type: MC type - Frequency range: 15Hz-50kHz - Output voltage @ 1kHz,3.54cm/sec: 0.3mV - Channel separation @ 1kHz: 30dB - Output balance @ 1kHz: 0.5dB - Stylus pressure: 1.8 - 2.2g (2.0g standard) - Coil impedance: 10 ohms (1kHz) - Direct current resistance: 10 ohms - Recommended load resistance: 100 ohms or more (w/ head amplifier connected) - Coil inductance: 22 mu H (1kHz) - Static compliance: 40×10 - 6 cm/dyne - Dynamic compliance : 10×10 - 6 cm/dyne (100Hz) - Stylus tip: 0.3 x 0.7 mil nude elliptical - Cantilever: Duralumin tapered pipe - Vertical tracking angle: 23 ° - Dimensions (mm): H16 x W16.6 x L6.5 - Weight: 6.9 g
Sorry, I thought it was a .2 x .7 tip. That's on the 7V. AT has a reputation as having an overly bright "house sound". It doesn't look like they're willing to re-do the MM line. The 7V has been available in Japan for years. LpGear brings it in, it's not generally available in N America. I'd bet AT would sell a ton if they discontinued the 150MLX and brought back the 170ML and 20SS w/boron. That might require re-tooling though, although it might not be all that extensive. Phono carts seem almost like a sideline for them now. I'm sure they make most of their money from microphones and headphones.
Dlaloum and I discussed loading options before. For the end user MM/MI have a hugh advantage over MCs. Obviously, I don't go along with being stuck with one impedance, whether it's 47K or 100K. The advantage is being able to tune frequency response. I think it's ridiculous having some carts loaded at 100K with their tails up in the air or practically dragging on the record. SRA should be somewhere near 2 degrees, Period. MC loading is much more limited. Depending on the cart and phono pre, dynamics and soundstage are usually more affected than freq res. This greater adjustability combined with the option of stylus substitution/replacement makes HO carts much more practical and will outperform a MC that doesn't synergize with a particular phono pre or system. Regards, |
Hi Dialoum,
"you must remember the BS is a high quality fertiliser guaranteed to encourage growth..."
I wonder how much of it should be applied to the top of my head? All kidding aside, the AT33PGT is a cartridge I came very close to purchasing. The review I read compared it very favorably (equal to actually), to the Denon's top MC, the DL-S1. I had to reel myself back in because of the promise I made to myself. No more MC additions in my stash of cartridges. Thank you for the additional information about this cartridge and the Micro line in general.
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HI Flieb,
Your mention of the 170ML sure beings back memories. I wanted that cartridge so bad. I heard at a demo of one during a club meeting one evening. Everyone there was speechless. That was early mariage. By the time I had stashed enough money to buy one, they had stopped production (due to manufacturing hazards), and the entire supply lines had dried up. That was many years ago, yet I can remember that experience like it was yesterday. Hearing it was truly an amazing experience! Regards, Don |
Hi everyone,
I don't have time to read all the posts in this thread, but to summarize, it sounds like MM/MI are more flexible and deliver a better sound for the dollar than low output MC cartridges and high output MC ones can be a good compromise. Is this a fair, mostly correct summary? If not, can you provide a correct summary here?
My local analog shop and I both agree (I have heard much, much less than him) that MM/MI cartridges can sound wooly where MC can be more open. This is not true across the board of course, but is it a good "general concept" or is it way off base? Also some of Raul's original post states that the low output MC can introduce additional background / line noise to the final reproduced signal range. Is this another "good general concept". With both of the above concepts to consider, plus all the cartridges we have to choose from today, would high output MC cartridges be the best choices for the end user in the sub $500 range?
I like my Ortofon MC-3 turbo even though it can be a little on the bright side at times. I also want to give the Benz MC silver a try. Am I limiting myself way too much here or should I stay the course?
TIA,
Scott |
Hi Sbrownnw,
Your quote "I don't have time to read" is such a shame. There is so much hear to learn. I quess you will just have to go thru life believing everthing your told! Regards, |
Don, There's PGT II now. Not sure how much different it is from the orig. It looks like AT might have done away with the gold dust on the boron cantilevers. You can see the specs and purchase on line at places like joynetmall.com They also have the orig 33PTG. My Genesis 1000 has diamond dust coating its boron cantilever. These coatings might have been for durability and rigidity? Soundsmith put a new micro tip on the orig cantilever. It came back sounding like it did when new.
The DL-S1 is a very listenable cart if the inductance/capacitance thing that J Carr was telling us about doesn't mess with your phono stage. The alum cantilever and special elliptical do not provide the ultimate in resolution, but has a top to bottom coherence and naturalness that's very nice. It seems to me to be a more sophisticated 103 type sound. Detail is very good but not great. I never heard a PTG, but compared to an OC9II, the Denon lacks detail. The OC9II is too forward, bright for my system and the PGT is said to be better in that respect. I wanted to get one too, but like you, I restrained myself. I like my Genesis better than the DL-S1 (I was reviewing it) and I really don't need another cart. Regards, |
Sbrownnw, As I have stated here before and based on my limited experience with a variety of HOMC cartridges and a wider variety of MM and MI cartridges, I would rank the goodness in the following order, high to low: LOMC~MM~MI>HOMC. In other words, I put HOMC cartridges at the low end of the spectrum, AS A CLASS. This is not to say that some one or another of them is not good. But I have owned and listened extensively to some pretty well regarded HOMCs, including Transfiguration, Benz, and Sumiko. None of them rang my bell the way the best of the other types can do. I privately considered the years spent with those cartridges to have been wasted audio time. Can an MM/MI cartridge sound "woolly"? Yes. Can an MC cartridge sound "woolly"? Yes. |
Hi Flieb,
Interesting comments you have made! I have heard the OC9II and agree with you completely. The individual who wrote the review that I read, comparing the DL-S1 to the PGT, commented on the fact if he was force to choose b/t the two, he would pick the DL by the slightest of margins. With the cost of the PGT being about 1/3 the cost of the DL, I felt the PGT would be quite a bargain. Concidering how I agree with you on your assessment of the OC9II, and with your assessment of the DL, and those of the reviewers (if push came to shove, he would pick the DL), it kinda makes me question as to wether or not the PTG might just be a disapointment. I have a 103R so I am well aware of the lack of detail the Denons produce. I had hoped the DL would have been a conciderable improvewment over the 103 in detail retrival. Glad to hear you have and enjoy a Genesis. I had one and sold it years ago to buy a Benz Micro Ruby #I. Another one of the stupid decissions I've made in life. The 2 cartridges that I miss the most, and should have kept, is the Genesis and the Talisman S. If you don't remember the Talisman S, it had that long nose look of some of the Ortofons. It was one of the first Sapphire cantiliver cartridges. Just thought of another cartridge I stupidly sold. A Shinnon Red. Regards, Don |
Don, My dyslexia is contagious. I think it's PTG. A couple of times I wrote PGT. Don't put too much stock in in a review. They're good for getting an idea about the sound and one persons opinion/results. If the call was that close, it could come down to the type of music (s)he preferred or particular system compatibility. The DL-S1 was unlistenable through my AHT. The HF oscillation or whatever messed with the harmonics and the cart sounded like it was on amphetamines. It's ironic that the non magnetic core that makes it great also requires capacitors in the signal path that compromise performance. This oscillation is more common than one might think. It was a group review in which I participated. One other person also experienced this phenom. A guy on Asylum who loves the cart has to load it at 30 ohms. That's the impedance of the cart and essentially cuts its already low output in half. YMMV
I listen to mostly jazz and a little rock/pop and classical. I want a cart that's fast and accurate. I would have gotten a Monster 2000 back in the day, but I liked the 1000 better. The 2K had gold coils. It was smoother but the 1K was faster. I liked the Talisman S too. It was the best of the Sumikos back then and a great value. Maybe I'm romanticizing the relative prices. I'm talking '80s money and what would it be today? I've seen used Monsters f/s here for around $500. Tell me about the Shinnon Red. Regards,
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Not sure about dyslexia by Don but he refers always to Flieb instead of Fleib and he also invented Shabata for the Shibata . I am sure he does this concious but don't see any connection with the Balkan humor.
Regards, |
Hi Flieb,
"My dyslexia is contagious"
I honnestly never noticed.
So, you want me to tell you about the Shinnon Red. Well, I'll describe it the best I can remember. Don't hold me accountable if you do facts checks. There was a "WOW" factor every time the stylus hit the groove. EVERY TIME! One of the words that was thrown around to describe it was Technicolor. Instruments or voices just jumped out at you. A very wide and deep 3-D sound stage. It was nicknamed the Carnegie Hall of cartridges. It was rich, smooth, detailed. Had that grin-inducing stuff. It put you front row center, every time, and for any performance. TAS magazine used it as their reference for several years. Nearly every MC cartridge review that was in publication would have a reference to the Shinnon Red somewhere in the writeup. It was called the poor mans Koetsu but after some well know reviewer actually chose the Red over a (IIRC), Koetsu Rosewood, there was a major uproar throughout the audiophile comunity. I borrowed money and made payments on its $600 purchase price. A lot of money in the late '80's. It had very pinpoint immaging, which was attributited to the body that was machined from a solid block of some kind of alloy. It might have been a rich, smooth, and detailed cartridge but it was bigger and more romantic than life and you couldn't turn down the voluum without the entire soundstage collaspsing. Who cared back them. You played everything LOUD! I have no doubt that I, nor anyone else that I knew, ever heard it perform at its best. Most turntables during that period still have 3 speeds. To call it entry level high end would be a rather apt description. It must of had good output because I don't remember having a SUT back then. Doubt it I even knew what one was! Why did I sell it. Well, long listening sessions were sort of tiring. Not for the reasons you might think. Tiring because of that "in your face" presentation wears on you after awhile. The guitar strings vibrations could actually be felt. Everything was so immediate. Right there, in the room with you. Flieb, if you are one of the people that bought the Acutex 420, think of the amazement you felt, the 1st moment the stylus hit the record and that WIDE soundstage hits you. Imagine having that feeling of "WOW" throughtout the presentation, on every record. It sound like a good thing at first, but it wears on you and is really just a to much of a good thing. Back then, you had only one cartridge, maybe two. So you had no other options. Alignment was primitive at best. Deffinitely not something you relished doing often. That's probably why I would like to have it back now. Several tonearm wands, easy swapping and cartridge adjustment. It did have that rising high fequence responce old MC's all had but that can be corrected on todays equipment. I hope my senior moment recollections opened the window for you alittle pertaining to the Shinnon Red. I just might start looking around. Maybe there will be update in the near future! Regards' Don |
Hi Nandric,
"Flieb instead of Fleib and he also invented Shabata for the Shibata"
Those are refered in my circle as "SENIOR MOMENTS"!
Happy hollidays to you both!
Regards' |
Don, hope this does not make you feel bad. I bought a Shinon Red Boron from Jerry L many, many years ago. After a short period of use the cantilever collapsed. I sent it to the North American importer (Canada) for inspection and they replaced it with a new one. If you can believe it, it still performs beautifully after all this time, including the suspension maintaining position. Of course it has been in and out of my system during all this time, not in steady use as that would have worn out the stylus long before now. But it still has a nice combination of detail retrieval while presenting a great deal of warmth and body to the music, similar to live instruments! |
Hi Pryso,
I didn't know Jerry sold you one. After talking with Flieb, I starting thinking about how one of them might sound in a state of the art system of today. Your system deffinetly fits that SOTA descripion. I have forgotten about the collasping suspension some of them had. I have recieved a private email from a person who just got his back from Soundsmith. They replaced only the tip and cleaned it up inside. I don't know what the means, his words, not mine. I quess it's call a refresh. He claims it sound so good, that he would like to get another one. My reply to him was good luck. I havn't seen a listing of one in years, but I have decided to start looking. You don't happen to want to sell yours do you? What the load and cap. setting are you using for it? I remember setting the VTF at 1.5gr. I had a Conrad Johnson PV12 with a MM phono stage built in and had no problem driving it. So it must not have been a Low Output. Wow! I'm amazed you have one after all these years. What are your other current cartridges and how does it compare. Just generalities would be OK with me. Nice to hear from you and Merry Christmas. If your see Bruce (Stereo Unlimited), give him my best.
Regards, Don |
Pryso,
Hi Tim,
I just had another Senior moment! Your new speakers,the Cain & Cain BENs, would probably be perfect with the Shinnon. How much more "you are their" could you get.
Regards, Don |
While we are at it, the word is "Shinon", not "Shinnon", for god's sake. "Honnestly", I just don't know why you guys can't spell.
If it's OK to talk MC cartridges here, that Ortofon MC7500 must be like unto the Shinon Red. It is very "in your face" and detailed at the same time. With my new set-up, it is easy to play music very loud, and I do find myself a bit overwhelmed after a 2-hour session with the MC7500. But it sure finds a lot of music in them grooves. The Koetsu Urushi gives that big musical sound but not so etched as the Ortofon. The Acutex LPM320 sounds something like the MC7500 but more "musical", for want of a better word. Sort of in between the Koetsu and the Orto. Probably it's a bit less detailed than the Orto, in keeping with the lore surrounding MM cartridges vs MC. Could there be another long thread on the subject of "vintage MC cartridges"? I suspect so, but the cartridges themselves are IMO more likely to have deteriorated due to the ravages of time and use and ain't so easy to re-new. |
Hi all, Axel answered my two added questions.Considering the fact that he repairs B&O carts I was suprised that he deed not mention 'sapphire' cantilever. Well he also can provide those. Regarding the suspension by MC carts my assumption that this must be very complex and difficult job was right. The problem is that the 'rubber ring' is behind the coils. So Raul should explain what he means with his 'refreshment' of suspension which he btw consider to be even more important then the retip.
Regards, |