Which speakers will fill 5,000 cubic ft coherently
In porevious threads I've bemoaned the fact that my Kharma 3.2 FEs don't fill the room, 17 X 23 X 15 ft ceilings with a vertical enough soundstage, as though the speakers are literally too small. I have been advised to raise them,which I have done, , I have told to get taller, line arrays, even given names of custom speaker makers. Any specic recommendations from those that have had, and have conquered, this issue.
>>3-18-08 Shadorne: Why not try pulling those beautiful Kharma's well out into the room and away from the side walls....(while the wife is out) and see if it sounds better?<<
Of course it does sound better, but a) the wife always comes back :)and I'm not having speakers on roller skates - ; b)it still doesnt fill the room - every audio "authority" (manufacturer of note, if you like) that I have spoken to is amazed that I would expect a small 2-way speaker to fill 56oo cubic feet. Do you think it should/would/could? My stupidity for not thinking of this/ trying it out before buying them.
Appropos your comments about Ralph, Tvad, I have spoken to him today and he confirms his generalisation that 8 ohm impedances are better for all tube amps; however, he believes that he should re-state his assertion, since it is taken too literally (I don't want to put words in his mouth and maybe he will chime in here) - he believes the MA-2 can easily drive the Tyler Woodmere, with its benign impedance curve, but states that it would sound even better with an 8 ohm, rather than 4 ohm, impedance. So that doesn't disqualify a 4 ohm speaker for mating with the MA-2, since the speaker's 91 db sensitivity will compensate somewhat. But the Woodmere doesn't have a 60 day trial like the Zu Definition, so a trial could be "hazardous", and I've done that once already..........I suppose to get as close to "perfection", all the known criteria should ideally be met, and a higher impedance than 6 ohms is one of them, so your point is valid.
>>3-19-08 Tvad: I'm interested to know how you or Ralph are determining that the Woodmere speakers have a benign impedance curve since the minimum impedance spec of the Woodmere is not published on the Tyler webpage. Ty only publishes the nominal impedance spec.<<
Based on Ty telling me it is an easy load and drops to low-mid 3's.
I'm not arguing about any of your points, tvad, just reporting what Ralph said based on Ty's conversation and Ralph's knowledge of the speakers.
What this implies, if taken literally, is that no 4 ohm speaker should be driven by a tube amp. Period. I'd be interested to know how many audiophiles follow this rule. Anybody out there drive a Woodmere with any tube amp? Does thais imply that all speakers with 4 ohm impedances are ruling out tube amps to drive them? I'd be interested to hear other speaker manufacturers' comments.
Read my post carefully. I conceded that it would/could be a mis-match.
Tube amps employ an output transformer to match the high output impedance of their tubes to the lower input impedance of the speakers being used. These amplifiers have at least two separate binding posts for (usually) 4 or 8 ohms depending on the number of windings in the transformer being used at that impedance. OTL (OutputTransformerLess)amplifiers do not have output transformers to adapt them to low impedance speakers. Sometimes an outboard transformer like the Speltz is used to compensate for a native mismatch but, as I stated earlier, that rather defeats the purpose of having an OTL.
Regardless of claims to the contrary, you will always get better results by optimizing component matching. OTL amps are better matched with HIGH impedance speakers. This does not mean that other speakers will not work but it does mean that they will not be ideal mates for your amplifiers.
So now I am looking at speakers that look great (WAF), have a small footprint, have 13 0hm impedance and can stand 6-12" from the wall - Selah Audio Alexandrite. Long build-time, but who's in a rush? Any comments?
To quote McIntosh... "Output autoformers, a feature of many of our amplifiers, assures that you get all the power you paid for. Other amplifiers, optimized for 8-ohm speakers, have warnings not to use with many speakers that are 4 or even 2-ohm impedance. Others are optimized to work with these low impedance speakers, but deliver only a fraction of their potential power with 8-ohm speakers. Output autoformers avoid this problem, with separate connections for all three popular speaker types, insuring full power, without stress, into any speaker regardless of impedance."
Unless I miss my guess, the output autoformers are essentially the same thing as using the speltz autoformers (which have different impedence multiplying taps), except that they are internal to the amp. So we are still back to the same issue; most tube amps (and esp. OTL amps) prefer/sound better with a high impedence load. However, (and here I may be wrong) the large # of output tubes in the bigger Atma and Joule amps, make them a better match for a lower (not low) impedence speaker (assuming a flat impedence curve) than might otherwise be expected.
Swampwalker- As far as the Woodmeres go..If Ty says that they would work fine with an OTL amp..then you can take him at his word.
He's never steered me wrong.
BTW..if you go with Tyler..I guarantee you will not be disappointed with not only with the sound of the Woodmeres, but thier more than obvious craftmanship, too.
I think some people are stretching the point about tube amps not working well with sub-8 ohm loads. As a rule OTL designs prefer high impedance loads, but tube amps as a whole can work perfectly well into lower impedance speakers. If you take into account the output impedance of the amplifier you'll find that most tube amps work best with speakers that have smooth impedance responses. But that is also the case with most transistor based amps. With the proliferation of single end triode type amps, which as a group don't do low impedances, all tube amps are being unfairly tainted as incapable of driving real world speakers. Any number of Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Manley, EAR, etc. amps thrive on driving low impedance speakers.
This is the most interesting thread in a while....what a conundrum of imposed constraints (amplification equipment, speaker placement, and loud unstrained sound to fill a large space, and not least of all the WAF factor). All understanable constraints but nevertheless making this problem fairly unique!
I'd suggest another option: biamping! Why not use an active filter to split the preamp signal to allow the beautiful 58 tubes to drive the midrange and tweeter of a nice dynamic three or four way. Then use a big bad boy SS amp on the woofers...and caboom - you got the smoothness and clarity you want in those tubes with the ooomph you need for a large space for blissful unstrained dynamic sound (not only will the big bad boy amp driving big woofers fill the room in mind bending accurate bass but you will ease the strain on the amplification to the mids and tweet, which can play louder and sweeter too!)
...anyway I just thought I'd toss that idea in....
The Zu Presence weighs 80 lbs, has a 14 inch wide front baffle that narrows toward the rear at a 60 degree angle. It is biamped, highly efficient and sports a 16 ohm flat impedance curve. The owner of Atmasphere uses a similar Zu speaker with his amps. This suggests that he might think they work well as a combo. Zu has a return policy. If you keep them, you pay freight one way, just like any other speaker. If you return them, you pay freight the other way too. It's a small gamble.
Zu has a serious jump factor. Sound emanates effortlessly from the full range driver and the seamlessness of no crossover reproduction holds many of us in awe. They may not solve your problem completely but I would say they stand a better chance than most any other speaker, given your preferences and constraints.
It seems I need to clarify something here. My comment above referred to **all** tube amps, not just Atma-Sphere (and FWIW, our MA-2 is quite comfortable driving four ohm loads).
However- what everyone in audio (and thats a lot) need to realize that there is a trade-off between sound and impedance. **FOR ALL AMPLIFIERS**
I highlighted that but I don't intend to be yelling... the point is, that even transistor amplifiers sound better on higher impedance speakers than they do on low impedance.
Steve McCormick is well-known for making rugged transistor amplifiers- has for years. In a recent email to Paul Speltz, who makes the ZERO autoformer, Steve reported that his amplifiers sound better driving 4 ohms *through the ZERO* than they do direct. In this case, the ZERO was loading the transistor amp at 16 ohms.
On hearing this, I asked several transistor amplifier manufacturers at CES what was up. Universally, they all responded, to paraphrase: 'Just because the amplifier is comfortable on 4 ohms does not mean that they sound best there- they sound better when you run less current through them. Yes, they do sound better into higher impedances'.
What this tells me is that 4 ohms is to get power as a tradeoff against sound quality. Everyone take note!
So I am amending my statement made some months ago above:
'If you are investing in an audio amplifier (tube or transistor), your investment dollar will be best served if the speaker used is at least 8 ohms or more (all other things being equal), if sound quality is your goal.'
To me, high end audio is **only** about sound quality.
While your amplifier might sound great on a given 4 ohm speaker (for example Magnaplanar tells me all the time that their speakers 'never sounded better' than on our MA-2), it will sound smoother and more detailed if you could magically change the impedance upwards without changing anything else.
Right now the closest we are to that is to use a set of ZEROs.
Atmashpere, in your opinion which is more important - the speaker's relative impedance or the smoothness of the impedance curve? For instance, would an amp rather see a speaker that rated at 16 ohms which actually varies from 12 ohms to 45 ohms, or a smooth 8 to 12 ohm load? Or is it something that can't really be expressed this simply.
BTW, your contribution to the Forums is invaluable.
Now that I've sold the Kharmas (25 offers in first 12 hours and I was expecting a month or two wait..........first firm offer to buy disappeared into thin air - that really pisses me off, so second buyer, a real gent, gets them), the serious search is on: Zu Definitions, Custom-made Selah Line arrays adjusted for corners, room size and 13 ohm impedance, built in sub-woofer, gorgeous wood craftmanship, Audiokinesis Jazz Modules and Tyler Woodmeres currently in the frame. Only thing I dont like about the Defintions is the aesthetics - wife went green when she saw chrome and metal, but I am told they can be painted black..... All input welcome, and appreciated.
By the way, thanks Ralph, for your input. Your 24/7 availability and objectivity certainly adds to the pleasure and privilege of owning Atma-Sphere amps & preamps.
My Definitions were 12 inches from the rear wall with no boom, no problem. However, I would still recommend the Presence for your situation. Black hardware is available and your wife can choose any color on earth. My speakers are the color of new copper tubing. Glossy and metallic, they look like old fashioned radios with their woofer lenses showing slivers of dark grill cloth. Flat paint is also available so you can match them to your sofa or your Navajo rug. Be creative.
When I design a loudspeaker I try my best to keep above 8ohms and near stable. 16ohms even better. But many tubes amps will do fine into 4ohms just depends on design, transformers etc. Still best to shoot for 16ohms or at least 8 ohms if you want to run tube amps. For OTL -SET best to match loudspeaker carefully. Some of the better systems I have heard used costly OTLs wont mention from who:) But I have also heard the same basic system with diferant loudspeakers that wasent so hot at all. This is true for most all systems best to match up gear designed to work together. See many wanting to use 4ohm 88db bookshelfs or other hard to drive loudspeakers with SETs or OTL. Many post asking. I can see why they are not so thrilled if they try these amps. Kind of like shooting yourself in the foot or pissin in the wind....Your not going to like the results but its your fault not the systems..
My Definitions are close to the rear wall with no problems. I have not hear the Zu Presence or the other speakers that you are considering. The metal on the Zu speakers (Def and Presence) can be anodized black; and the cabinets can be painted any color - matte or gloss. Personally, I like the gloss black with the aluminum driver trim (it is not chrome, btw); for the record, Architectural Digest agreed. However, if your wife wants wood veneer, then Zus will not work.
Having spoken to some people whom I greatly respect, I have added the Coincident line to my final few as well as Duke's Jazz Module; I would look for a Total Eclipse, but they are not available on A'gon, but the Total Reference is. Zu Defintions remain high up, but I don't seem to get a handle on their sound, other than the 6 Moons review, which is more akin to a racing car review:) Any views on the Total Reference? I suppose ideally, with an amp such as the A-S MA 2.2, it seems redundant to have a built in sub amp (the Zu)which is unlikely to be as good as the A-S amp. So a full-range speaker without a sub amp would seem to be the theoretical ideal and so far only the Coincident seems to fit the entire bill. But can they be placed close to the front wall?
"I suppose ideally, with an amp such as the A-S MA 2.2, it seems redundant to have a built in sub amp (the Zu)which is unlikely to be as good as the A-S amp. So a full-range speaker without a sub amp would seem to be the theoretical ideal and so far only the Coincident seems to fit the entire bill."
Despite the fevered claims of some tubaholics, there is a definite advantage to be had by using tubes above 50 Hz and solid stste below that point. There is some discussion afoot about whether newer class D designs outperform the conventional A and A/B amplifiers but very few would argue that tubes provide better bass reproduction than SS can. Furthermore, it is certain that splitting low bass duties out of the main amplfier's assignment will improve it's ability to control the mids. That's why statement products are often multi-amped and/or actively powered.
Despite the fevered claims of some tubaholics, there is a definite advantage to be had by using tubes above 50 Hz and solid stste below that point.
This certainly works well for me (presently) and has worked well in the past as well. I'm currently using my Quicksilver 300B SET amps to push Silverline Sonatinas in a near-field space of moderate volume. Bass without subs is OK, but certainly not visceral. Really good for a 9 watt SET amp compared to others I've heard. I've added an ACI Force XL sub (internal 250W SS amp). At first I found it a bit tricky to integrate, but once integrated the combination is very rewarding. I'd used an ACI Titan in the past (different space and speakers) and found it similarly musical, fast (able to keep up with very sensitive, fast horns), and rewarding. A good friend, who's already chimed in on this thread, tried bi-amping his Maggie 20.1's with a VTL 450 on top and various hi-powered SS amps at the bottom, eventually settling on Parasound JC1's. I got to hear a few different permutations while he was trying to decide on the SS amp, as well as having heard the speakers pushed only by the VTL's. Vertical biamping was a definite improvement in every way for those speakers (though ultimately I felt his room was a bit small for them). The tube/SS combination did work great to my ears. Later on he determined he was not happy with it and went to a second pair of VTL 450's on the bottom. Never got to hear that combo myself, but he liked it much better than the JC1 (ss) on the bottom. Anyway, it certainly can work well IMO.
Sure you could change to bigger louder speakers, but, if I were you I'd experiment with subwoofers to provide the sound you want. Your speakers are fabulous,very hard to beat at what they do, but were designed to be used with subs. Experiment with quality fast subs.
>>03-22-08: Psacanli Sure you could change to bigger louder speakers, but, if I were you I'd experiment with subwoofers to provide the sound you want. Your speakers are fabulous,very hard to beat at what they do, but were designed to be used with subs. Experiment with quality fast subs.<<
I believe these speakers were designed for smaller spaces, and have already sold them. Besides, I dont believe that the vertical soundstage and imaging would be that much affected by subs. But it's moot.
>>03-22-08: Tvad Hard to believe, but adding a sub (or two) to monitors has a substantial effect on increased image height and size. Quite amazing, actually...<<
Should I cancel the sale?:):) Are you saying that a recording of content (eg a soprano, violin, piccolo, flute, oboe) well above 60 Hz - an arbitrary cut-off for a suubwoofer - when the subwoofer presumably will not be employed (or will it??) raises the soundstage? What if I tell you that 90% of what I listen to is in the aove 60 Hz range? Then what? I am not being facetious - educate me........
Your request for education is refreshing. Help is on the way. What Tvad says about subwoofer implementation, however strange, is certainly true. Incorporating subs can be very tricky,as you need to place them in such a way as to blend with the speakers you have already. Purchasing speakers with pre-engineered and pre-optimized inboard subs removes obstacles that you otherwise might never overcome. It is also advantageous to consider powered speakers which have onboard amplification and generally exclude passive crossovers and the compromises they introduce. The better powered speakers often have a separate amp for every driver and an electronic (active) crossover on hand to handle crossover points and slope assignments. It is also advantageous to reproduce as wide a midband as possible without crossing over at all. This is usually the province of very small limited range dynamic drivers like Lowther and Fostex or rather large planars like Sound Lab or Magnepan. The former will not begin to fill your spave and the latter is too large for where you need to put them. While we are at it, Beveridge is not only too large to fit but needs surrounding space which you certainly can't provide. Another suggestion called for Infinity Kappa Nines. These, if I remember correctly, hold a special place in the H.O.F. for hardest to drive speakers of all time. A very, very unwise choice for an OTL owner.
I'm a Zu guy as is well known but there are some other speakers that might suit your purposes. Perhaps Vandy Fives would fit.
I'd concur that integrating a good sub effectively with a pair of speakers definitely improves upon soundstaging abilities of the mains in my experience. These improvements have been in the 3-dimensional depth and width of soundstage, and in pinpointing and resolving images in space. It does not, in my experience, however, do anything to increase the "vertical soundstage" (from your original post)...or at least what I'm interpreting your meaning of that to be, which is to say, the scale of imaging. Though more impactful (did I just made that word up) in ways I have never found it to increase the scale of the images produced by the mains. I have certainly heard systems where the scale of the imaging seems larger than life, as it were (I'm assuming this is what you mean by "vertical soundstage"). I'm not sure that I'd appreciate that on a long term basis though. Perhaps. It certainly is a novel experience when I hear it. I wonder if the novelty would wear off. I don't know what qualities speakers/system need to have to pull that off. One such system that impressed me that way consisted of NHT 3.3's and all top-shelf Levinson gear. It wasn't my cup of tea, but it was memorable and impressive in many ways. The scale of everything it reproduced seemed larger than life, and the space it was in was quite large itself, both in footprint and volume. A piano seemed larger than it should in real life and human vocals made the singers feel like giants in some way. If you are looking for this from a speaker/system that doesn't already render something like it already, I don't think a sub will move the sense of scale in that direction. Apologies in advance if I've misinterpreted your meaning.
I have mine out about 6 feet BUT since they have an adjustable 11 band bass eq and level/Q controls you can adjust for that pretty easy - soundstaging and imaging is better placed farther from the wall. They are rated at 87db but remember they have a 400wpc bass amp built in to each speaker. I drive mine with 70wpc Cary monos and they can play VERY loud if called on to do so ;)
they easily fill my room ;) The soundstage is as wide and tall as appropriate for the music. I once had some Audiostatic electrostatics and the soundstage was TOO tall - singers were like 10' tall, heheh...
I'd direct you attention back to the Selah line arrays. I have a pair of their custom Incredarrays (similar to the Alexandrite) and they will definitely fill your room, with great dynamics and proper room height. The height thing bothered me with many speakers I owned until I got the Selahs. There's a thread over at Audio Circle called 'why line arrays' that you might find interesting. One post from that thread:
"1. They fill a room more evenly with sound, not too loud up close or too quiet at a distance. This is because, as mentioned elsewhere, the SPL from a line array decreases by 3db for each doubling of distance vs a regular speaker that decreases by 6db. This is a huge difference. 2. They have a sweet spot that is orders of magnitude larger, a direct result of #1. 3. The nature of how sound disperses from a line array leads to better in-room behavior. Not only is floor and ceiling bounce virtually eliminated, but that also eliminates the floor/ceiling room mode from having an influence. 4. They sound "bigger"."
I wouldn't be overly concerned about a SS amp driving the sub frequencies. And even with music with minimal low bass, the lower extension that subs provide will add greatly to the 'realism' of the performance.
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