"Paraphrasing your reply, Class D is ruthless on ancillary kit and cables. They should be upgraded before bashing class D."
Hello tweak1,
Great to hear that you’re benefiting from the detail and clarity of class D technology to significantly upgrade your system’s ancillary power cords and cables. I had similar improvements in my system by installing custom made XLR cables between preamp and class D mono blocks and power cords on my monos (all ordered from James Romeyn Music LLC). I also installed dedicated AC lines for the monos that made obvious improvements. Similar ancillary kit and cable changes, as well as the quality level of source recordings, were never this clearly noticed through the decent quality class AB amps I previously used.
As always ’compared to what", Well, I was in the biz in the late 1990s-- early 2000s. Dedicated 20 amp line, and was testing various PLCs.. Back then the PS Audio P300 on the front end was awesome.
At one point I had Rogue M150 monos with full sets of cryoed 6550s and EL 34s (+ cryoed NOS driver tubes), a Lector pre (custom ordered with XLR output) and several tube CD players. everything was on Stillpoints with Risers and custom Harmonic boards (made from violin wood): I was/am an isolation nut. IMHO, nothing is as good as inexpensive Machina Dynamica Springs, which isolate in all 3 dimensions). Various speakers, but at one point I had Harry Pearsons Genesis Vs, and later a prototype pair of 7ft Nearfield Pipedreams with a 10K MSRP (we were dealers), followed by Usher 6371s> KCIIs. You get the picture
I started getting into class D with PS Audios various iterations; I still have a GCC 250 (modified as new by Underwood HiFi driving my video system. In the main rig I had W4S stereo amp> W4s MC 250/500> Emerald Physics 100.2SE with custom fuses) and currently Audio Alchemy DPA- 1 (stereo amp) and matching AA DDP-1 (dac/pre). CD is a Marantz HD CD 1 used as a transport via HQ coax, and an Oppo 105 with Linear Power Supply and incoming IEC wire upgrade for high rez discs, which I haven’t yet listened to in months. Speakers are Emerald Physics KCIIs (Clarity cap and WireWorld internal XO wire upgrades) which replaced Magnepan 3.5Rs and 2 SVS (Ultra subs, both turned off after the cable changes
So, when I say I haven’t had this level sound quality in decades, that says a lot, to me at least. .
Only budget limits me at this time from Nuprime Evos, GaN...
It sounds like you have a lot of experience which I think is critical in building a system you really enjoy. Listening to the opinions of experienced individuals on audio forums like this is helpful but I believe most of us learn best from actual personal experience. The process of just trying different things ( amps, sources, speakers, positioning, room treatments, cabling and even tweaks), over time, results in a solid foundation that not only lets you know what sounds good to you but also how to attain those sound qualities in your own system. My interest in class D amps began by reading numerous positive comments on them here and on other audio forums. Eventually, I just bought one (a ClassD Audio SDS-440-CS stereo unit) more out of curiosity than anything else. I was amazed at how well this small, light, efficient and inexpensive ($600) amp powered my inefficient Magnepan 2.7QR speakers. It was better in every respect than the class AB Aragon 4004 MKII amp I used previously and it was about a third of the size, weight and cost. Actually trying it out in my own combo music and ht system convinced me how exceptionally well this class D amp performed and I was now curious about the differences between class D amps. Within a year, I bought a few more class D amps: a stereo Emerald Physics EP100.2SE and a pair of mono block D-Sonic M3-600-M amps. These both sounded very good and similar but with better dynamics and improved midrange/treble qualities I’d describe as warmer and smoother. My entire 5.1 ht surround and 2-ch music system is now powered by class D amps and I’ve sold all 3 of my previous stereo class AB amps. My system’s never sounded better and there’re no downsides. I think the class D experience I’ve gained has also allowed me to confidently realize that class D critics are typically either misinformed, have an ulterior motive or simply have no personal experience using good examples of them.
Tim, The Audio Alchemy class D are far superior to the EPs. The Absolute Soud reviewed them back in March of 2016. I found it after having bought the AA stereo amp and dac/pre. These days the come u for sale at < 50% off, probably ONLY because they are no longer being made
Thanks for the heads up on the AA amps. I'm currently using the EP in bridged mode on my Magnepan CC3 center ch. I discovered both the AA and EP amps use the older UcD class D power modules that are still very good. Since you own both amps, I don't doubt your view that the AA implementation is superior but rather question whether the performance improvements would be sufficient, in mono on a center ch speaker, to justify the $ outlay. I'm thinking it'd be more beneficial to compare my current monos driving my L+R mains to monos utilizing the new GaN FETs or the upcoming Atmasphere class D amps that may perform even better. I have a combo ht and 2-ch music system but my priority continues to be optimizing the music reproduction aspects.
Well, just because they both use UcD does not mean they sound the same. I found the EP monos thin in the mids, which exaggerated the highs. They were used with my KCIIs as is the AA amp
anyway, Im getting PS Audio 700Ms and the gaincell dac/pre at a great price, so that should be a fun comparison. The PS only has about 300 hours so needs a couple weeks breakin before I can compare
"Well, just because they both use UcD does not mean they sound the same. I found the EP monos thin in the mids, which exaggerated the highs. They were used with my KCIIs as is the AA amp."
Agreed. That's what I meant when I stated "I don't doubt your view that the AA implementation is superior" on my last post. 'Implementation' referring to how AA and EP implemented or incorporated the similar UcD class D power modules in their amp designs, with the understanding they're not identical and that you thought the AA implementation was superior based on its sound quality.
No problem. I think the biggest news of this thread is Atmasphere's upcoming introduction of a class D amp that will likely eliminate dead time with new circuitry that has a patent application pending and doesn't even require the use of the new GaN FETs.
Things are progressing so rapidly in class D technology gains that the answer to this thread's question, which class D?, may be to just save your money and wait a while..... the answer will likely change, in absolute terms and probably especially if the price/performance ratio is considered.
Forgot to mention: I think it’s very interesting that your getting PS Audio 700Ms and the gaincell dac/pre at a great price. I’m always interested in learning about others' experiences and views on class D amps and other equipment. I find the 700Ms particularly interesting class D amps because they use what PS calls the 'gaincell'. This is a fancy name for their proprietary, fully differential, zero feedback,discrete class A MOSFET input stage. These amps don't utilize the new faster switching GaN FETs but, from the reviews I've read, they're high quality amps that will likely further improve the sq of your system. I'm not as familiar with their gaincell dac/pre but plan to read up on it. I know it's always exciting to install new equipment in one's system. I wish you the best and look forward to your reports on the results.
Im excited about the PS kit. The amps are ICE POWER tech. The input is proprietary, but the Gaincell is a volume module based on a B & O design. There are a number of in depth reviews on the net. I asked Paul McGowan if they are dabbling with GaN. I don’t think he knows what the digital department is up to in R & D though. I also asked him abut an external PS for the preamp, as he often does that, but he said that it wasn't needed. Hmmmm.Time will tell
What I am most excited about is I finally scored an AA power supply for the dac/pre, and it's a beast. They are hard to come by as production has stopped on the AA kit. I will have it Friday. No sure whether the PS kit will get here then too
I read the Stereophile review on the PS 700Ms and it was very positive. The review was from Jan./2018 and the reviewer had just previously reviewed the AA DPA-1Ms. He thought the PS 700Ms were superior and even compared them to being somewhat similar in sound quality to the Theta Prometheus mono block class Ds that go for $12k/pr, saying they were a bargain at about$3k/pr and you said you bought yours for even less. He also thought they performed best when separated on isolation stands and not stacked on top of each other. Here's the link: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier If they sound as good as they look, these amps should sound very good.
Thanks Tim. Yeah, his review motivated me. Took a couple months to find a silver set at a price I could flip without much out of pocket, but it sounds like they might stay, so...
I know I repeat myself but the AA sounds fantastic, especially since making the 2 cable changes
After having the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC/preamp and M700s in my system for the past two months, I can still say that I look forward to listening to them everyday. Break in took at least 200 hours but they are now very sweet and powerful, and more than any other amp set up I've had, the soundstage is very deep. This allows instruments and voices to occupy their own space. Separation has never been better. My current hungry Thiel 2.4s sing beautfully with these amps. The pre is connected to the power amps with balanced cable.
Enjoy your PS Audio system! I am sure you will like it!
tweak and others, just a curiosity question. In my rack space is at a premium, so placing amps on separate shelves would be a problem. Is there a relatively inexpensive sheet of some isolation material, that would not impact the finish on the lower mono, that would prevent whatever it is that causes the amps to sound better not stacked? So they can be stacked without negative sonic impact? Is it possible the sonic issue when the monos were stacked was just a sonic fluke of the stereophile reviewer’s listening room, I have not read anyone else experiencing the same?
Tweak1: get those anti-vibration blocks that were cited in the Stereophile review. I got a box of 48 of them for about $26 and they are great!!! I put three of them under all of my components.
The Stereophile reviewer heard significant sound quality improvements with separating the PS 700M monos and having them both on amp isolation stands rather than stacked. I'd suggest just trying the amps both ways in your system and determine if you perceive the same significant improvements he mentions. If you do perceive large improvements, buy a couple good amp stands and locate the amps separated by placing one on each side of your rack on the floor or place one beside/behind each of your main speakers. This would require longer inter-connects and shorter speaker wires but this shouldn't cause any issues with that. If you don't perceive large improvements, buy some sorbane pads or the blocks cited in the Stereophile review and stack 'em. I use thick maple amp stands (from Mapleshade) with conical brass spiked footers on my class D monos but I have room on the 6' wide top shelf of my rack with one at each end for a symmetrical look. This works well but I never even thought of stacking them ( they're only about 7"w x5"h x 12"d) so I never compared stacked to separated. Tim
I recently had my Nuforce 9SE V3 amps upgraded by Bob Smith at TDSS to his Level 3. All I can say is WOW, I have a new stereo. I'm hearing details in the music that I previously didn't know were there. Although there is more detail, there is no harshness or edginess to the music. Bass slam is more dynamic yet articulate without sounding muddy. There is generally a more relaxed presentation of the music because of these attributes. Bob is a delight to work with and I highly recommend him. Jeff
Exactly, your description is what I hear listening to very good class D amps. "There is generally a more relaxed presentation of the music because of these attributes" is an accurate summary of what to expect. Besides the relaxed and seemingly effortless presentation, I would only add my perception that, due to their very high signal to noise levels and the resultant very low background noise levels, music seems to emerge from a dead-silent and inky black background that enhances the whole experience. Tim
I haven't personally demoed any of these; but here's what I've been researching in Audiophile type forums. I've heard mostly great reviews of these particular models; these reviews being from people that have actually bought them, etc...:
These are in no particular order of greatness as listed. I've been looking to replace a Harman Kardon HK3770, with one or two of the above; still trying to make a decision. I'm leaning toward ClassD Audio. I was really interested in Red Dragon; but he's sold-out of the model I was looking at; I can't get in touch with him either. I wanted to know when/if that model was going to be available, in the near future.
*Audio Alchemy (I have their stereo amp and dac/pre) excellent value, especially used. No longer in production *Nord He is now selling the ICeEdge module based amps. An upgrade over the previous gen Ice which the PS Audio M700s are based on
The Class-D Audio (which is USA made and sold) is one to look out for as they say they will have their new models of the GaN technology Class-D amps coming out soon, don’t know if they will have it in kit form as well like their other products.
Class D audio amplification is a lot like electric cars they are both environmentally friendly and in some applications, uses, and products perform in a way that is at a minimum acceptable to a certain subset of users but the technology is still in its early developmental stages and not suited to the vast majority of installation and systems and I personally find that class D amplification sounds just dreadful to those familiar with the sound of real music, instruments, and acoustic spaces.
scratcha , I was having an email conversation last year with Ryan Tew from Red Dragon Audio. He is working on new amps and the old line is no longer being made. This is from an email last April:
We are going to clear out the current version to make way for the new MkIII version. I think we only have a few new S500’s left and some demo units that are undergoing refurbishment. These will all be sold at a steep discount.
Estimated Pricing on MkIII Gen Amps: $1299 Each M1000 MkIII $1399 Each S500 MkIII * $$TBD$$ Multichannel Amplifier **
M500 (discontinued) * Relatively large price decrease as we revert this product back to Direct to Customer Sales model ** MC Amp price isn’t determined yet - however it will be offered in either a 5 or7 channel variant. Power will be 1200 watts for L/C/R into 4ohms and 600watts for surround channels into 4ohms. *** Latest generation of ICEpower for the stereo, monoblocks and MC amp. No estimates on availability. Thanks,
Ryan Tew President - Red Dragon Audio
As his ETA was sometime in the Fall I contacted him again in September asking how things were going:
Things are going good but we’re redoing the entire chassis which will take the longest due to machining new tools and setting up the new parts. If you want to grab one of current amps before they’re gone, we can always do a trade in later when the MkIII’s are ready.
Thanks,
Ryan Tew President - Red Dragon Audio
In January I asked if he was going to update his website. Never replied. I’ve been putting off buying an amp for over a year waiting for his new line to come out. I’m not sure I’m going to wait much longer. I have a pair of Murano Audio P200 mono amps that are long overdue for retirement however With GaN technology Class -D amps on the horizon I think I’m going to hold off for awhile.
clearthinker? LOL you go from first person to who knows whta to validate your personal opinion " I personally find that class D amplification sounds just dreadful to those familiar with the sound of real music, instruments, and acoustic spaces."
I am quite familiar with live and reproduced music via claas A, AB, tube, and 4 different class Ds (soon to be 5) . and while I somewhat agree, having owned earlier generations from W4S, my Audio Alchemy stereo amp sounds like real music, at least WHEN the recording is well done , but bad discs sound BAD.
"class D amplification sounds just dreadful to those familiar with the sound of real music, instruments, and acoustic spaces."
My experience with live music and spaces is puny... You are right ClearThink... heard a live violin for the first time when I was six years old.... So I decided that I needed to learn music.... Started to take piano lessons and at 16 I got a Steinway baby grand.... Started to attend classical concerts at 13 at the Sala Verdi and the Teatro Alla Scala in Milan... Became a member of the selection committee for the Italian Concert Season of the Gioventu’ Musicali when I was 18.... Briefly trained as a bass baritone, and sang in a variety of classical choirs... Studied phylosophy of music and composition at college..... Attended music camps where daily I listened to violins by Antonio Stradivari, Guarneri Del Gesu', and Guadagnini.... Coached my daughter for 12 years when she was studying cello... Wrote articles on PFO.... At 65 I play the euphonium, flugel horn, cornet, trumpet, flute, and baroque recorders....
But apparently I know nothing about acoustic music and live spaces, and that’s probably why I am fond of such class D amps as the Bel Canto REF1000M, The Merrill Veritas, the Mola Mola Kaluga, the Rowland M312... Even worse, I absolutely adore the Rowland M535 bridged amps, and my Rowland M925 monoblocks... Somehow I managed to delude myself into believing that I am experiencing musical nirvana.
Nothing wrong in not liking current class D amps, ClearThink... Provided you experienced at some depth some of the best examples out there... Just please refrain from passing judgement on people who feel otherwise.... Their musical experience might be very well as deep as yours, Yet they might have developed opinions very different from yours.
Just please refrain from passing judgement on people who feel otherwise....
You need to get off your horse, I don’t think for one minute guidocorona that clearthink was passing judgement on to you or anyone at all!! He was giving his own personal thoughts as he stated said "I personally find" read it!!!.
As for your prima-donna resume, just because you have been a "self paised" jack of all trades musical, does not mean you were a master at any, or can even hear well either.
You need to take a break! You are passing judgement on Guido....that is for sure. Then, you could say, I am passing judgement on you for judging Guido for.......ha, ha, ha. Really, I love you....I don’t judge you....but I call you out on your judgements.
Can we just let go and stop calling names! Lighten up George! Stop fighting! Go watch a hallmark movie.....cry a little...laugh a lot. Life is a miracle! Every breath is a divine glorious moment.
Really! again!! If you bother to read yet again, which you have a problem with it seems comprehending, clearthink was expressing his opinions only, what he said quote: " I personally find". In no way was he trying to force his "judgement" onto "G" You need to take a "shill break" and get off threads that have nothing to do with what your selling in the near future.
We are all here to grow in Love......to stop judging. I cannot make you be less harsh and judgemental. Only you can decide to do this for yourself. I will pray for you.
Strength of Class D is when lots of power is needed in a small and perhaps affordable low maintenance package.
Class D may or may not be a good option in other cases, however those will be weaker cases for Class D ie cases where the unique aspects of Class D do not matter as much.
What the best option is largely depends on the playing field. Each approach is sound and can sound very good on its home field, less so playing away games on the others, so one can always set pre-conditions that favor one solution versus another. What happens and is needed in real life is all that matters in the end.
I had no idea you have such a musical background, very nice. My typical initial reaction, when I read negative comments about the sound quality of class D like those in clearthink's post , is to wonder exactly which class D amps they listened to that was perceived as sounding so bad. My next reaction, that seems to be similar to yours, is that they certainly did not listen to music amplified via my class D amps in my system since I always completely fail to recognize any of the supposed class D negative qualities they mention. Unfortunately, I recall only 1 class D amp critic listing the brand and model of class D amp on his post that he had listened to and based his opinions on. I welcome honest criticism of specific class D amps within the context of specific systems. However, some generalizations of class D performance (such as "I personally find that class D amplification sounds just dreadful to those familiar with the sound of real music, instruments, and acoustic spaces", "class D treble is harsh and fatiguing", "the soul of the music is missing" , "there's something missing", etc.) without mentioning any class D amp or system details are so broad and unspecific that they become meaningless.
++noble regarding guido. To a couple of other posters, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. It’s much more fun without you two "telling" us what to think, over and over. It will be a struggle, but there are a couple of knowledge experts we actually enjoy listening to.
Mad respect to Colin. About 6 months ago I came very close to buying, his Ice Edge then learned more about NCore and could not decide. Complicating the purchase, Im in USA, where there is almost zero Nord resale market
Prior to my next purchase I had 2 Emerald Physics 100.2 SEs with upgraded fuses, which I found thin in the mids (they replaced a W4S MC 250/500 multi-channel amp) the 250 sounded different than the 500. I latter learned they were different modules
I replaced the EPs with a used Audio Alchemy DPA -1 (stereo amp: MSRP $1995), which I bought at ~ 50% off. My preamp is the AA DDP-1.(also $1995 (sans PS 5 power supply: $695).
This combination trounced the EP. After many months I was finally able to purchase a demo PS 5 power supply at 30% off. That addition can be likened to a young boys puberty voice change.
I also am taking delivery of a slightly used (~ 300 hours) 3 piece PS Audio M700s (Ice modules) + Gain Cell dac//pre at ~ 40% off.
These class D experiences will prepare me for what comes next, but sooner or later there will be a next
I hear you saying "BUT"
Well, this Nord could well be many people's last amp purchase, but what about GaN, etc? The good and bad is Class D is a fast moving target. Both Ric of EVS and Ralph of Atmosphere are entering the game soon
That’s cool news from Nord. I’ve always heard the nc1200 was better than the nc400 or 500 but not sure where the differences are. Has anybody had a chance to compare the nc1200 to the 400 or 500?
Hello guys I have a Nord stereo power amp, two monoblocks in one chasis, with NC500 modules and the new Rev D boards with Sparkos Op Amps. It cost me about 2k. I have no experience with other class D amps, but I've had some class A tube integrated, the last one (Line Magnetic LM-508IA integrated 300B tubes based) is a VERY rewarded one among audiophiles costed about 5k in US, with out the cost of upgrading the tubes. Using both as power amps and the exact same system, all I can say is that the Nord BLOWS it out of the water in EVERY field: pin point soundstage, depth, tonal accouracy, dinamics (WOW), noise, etc. May be the only thing they were close is midrange sweetness... Yes, this field in a class D amp vs a 300B class A valve amp! The Nord costs less than a half, weigths 1/5, consumes much less power, generates much less heat and needs zero manteinance (the tubes on the LM are expensive, mostly the Power ones, and you need to replace them about once a year). I dont know about the reselling price and for the price I've paid I dont care much, but the Nords are a bargain. My system never sounded so good!!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
