I only have extended experience with the Nord NC500 Mk II monoblocks. I have found these to take a LONG time to burn in. They really started to sound there best after several months of use - maybe 1000 hours or so. Anyone that comes to the conclusion that class D sucks after a few days or even a few weeks of use (assuming a new unit) is not getting a true perspective of what they are capable of.
I find these amps to provide excellent, maybe even exceptional, value. They are very quiet, detailed, dynamic, have great bass, lots of headroom, and, of course, are lightweight, cool, and efficient.
But I don't think they are for everyone. They are very neutral sounding - some would call this sterile. They don't have the gutsy upper bass and sweet midrange that many class A & A/B amps have. But a lot of this has to do with system synergy.
I recently acquired a Parasound JC-5. This amp is not lightweight, cool running, or efficient. It's also more than double the price of the Nords. But it does have a more pleasing sonic signature in my system, and a wider and deeper sound stage. To me, this is worth the cost, size, and lack of efficiency, but I can certainly see the Nords being a great fit for many audiophiles. Once fully burned in, they are really pretty damn good.
Im missing something reading your post. Once PS goes direct prices should be lowered by the same amount dealers were getting. Case in point the M700s MSRP is $2999...
I enjoyed my time with the M700s, they sounded quite similar to my Audio Alchemy DPA-1, but with 2+ times the power, However, listening to the Ric Schultz EVS 1200 for only 2 days, it is in an entirely different class and at $2200 it's like stealing. That said, they are built to order in small batches.
This morning it occurred to me to experiment with where my amp is plugged in. I know Ive read about this long ago and probably plugged my amp/s direct, but...
Until this morning I had my Audio Alchemy DPA-1 (and several class Ds before it) plugged into my Core Technologies 1800 PLC which was then plugged into my 20 amp dedicated line with a 4 gang box with cryoed upscale duplexes
So I shut the amp off and plugged it direct into the dedicated box, using a cheater (no ground). Wow. I had been listening to Count Basie DVD A last night which sounded thin (no fuzz on the peach), but now it sounds natural, properly/naturally fleshed out. I then put Livingston Talyor back on and the whole top of the music opened up where it had been pinched and congested prior to
I feel so dumb, but my inner voice finally got through to me
That Apollon as4800 looks very nice and should work exceptionally well for your surround channels, powerful, accurate, clean and clear performance. I noticed your next addition may be room treatment and two subs. It looks like two SVS-SB3000 subs would cost about $2,000. I believe SVS subs are very good subs at reasonable prices and I think they're a good choice. However, I wanted to point out that at about a $2K budget you do have multiple options that will provide different quality levels of bass response in your room. Here are 3 options in order of expected performance quality level for both a music and HT system:
1. Good- Two SVS SB-3000 subs for about $2,000 ($1,000 each). Two properly positioned and configured subs in a given room typically provides bass response at a designated listening seat that's approximately twice the quality level of utilizing a single sub. Two subs provide increased bass output capacity and impact as well as increased bass dynamics due to the sharing of total bass requirements between two subs operating well within their limits and stress free with ample power reserves for sudden bass output dynamic demands. Psychoacoustic principles also begin to be applied beginning with the use of two subs in any given room that results in the bass being perceived as smoother, more detailed and better integrated with the main speakers. To understand how this psycho acoustic process works, it's important to understand how bass soundwaves behave in a room with a single sub. Soundwaves increase in length as the frequency decreases and deep bass tone soundwaves are very long. A full cycle soundwave of a 20 Hz deep bass tone is 56' long, a 30 Hz is 36', a 40 Hz is 28' and a 50 Hz is 23'. It's also important to know three facts: 1. Our brains can't even process the presence of a deep bass tone until the full cycle soundwave exists in the room and our ears have inputted this information into the brain. 2. Our brains require the input of at least three full cycle bass soundwaves before we are able to recognize a change in pitch. 3. Our brains cannot localize deep bass tones (detect where the sounds are coming from) with frequencies below 100 Hz. With the deep bass soundwaves being longer than any room dimension in many individuals' rooms, this means the soundwave will leave the single sub and need to travel as far as it can in the room and then reflect off the first room boundary (floor, ceiling or wall) it meets then keep traveling in the reflected direction until it meets the next room boundary. This process continues until the soundwave runs out of energy and with each subsequent bass tone launched into the room by the single sub. These numerous bass soundwaves of various frequencies launched into the room by the single sub, and reflecting off room boundaries, inevitably run into each other at various angles causing what are called a Bass Room Mode at each specific room location at which they meet or collide. Depending on the specific angle at which the soundwaves meet, we perceive these bass room modes at specific spots in the room as either a bass overemphasis (bass peak), a bass attenuation (bass dip) or even a bass cancelation (bass null). The result is an overall perception of the bass from a single sub as uneven or 'lumpy'. However, when a second sub is properly deployed and positioned in the room, the very interesting and useful principles of psychoacoustics (how our brains process sound and our perceptions of it) begin to come into play, which results in a perception that the bass is smoother, more detailed, better integrated with the main speakers and more natural or realistic. Unexpectedly, this is accomplished through the second sub actually significantly increasing the number of bass room modes (bass peaks, dips and nulls) in the room. Our brains naturally process the presence of multiple bass soundwaves below 100 Hz, by adding them together by frequency and averaging them out. This results in fewer bass modes being perceived in the room and a perception overall that the bass is smoother, more detailed, better blended with the main speakers and more natural.
Acoustical experts, such as Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd Toole and others, have proven scientifically that in-room bass performance perception improves as more subs are added to virtually any given room, beginning with two subs and with improvements continuing up to the theoretical limits. Of course, there's a practical limit to the acceptable number of subs in a domestic room. I'm fairly certain the exact number of subs considered acceptable in a domestic room is higher for most men than most women but, interestingly, the scientists found significant bass performance gains were attained with each additional sub up to four but smaller more marginal gains were attained with each additional sub beyond four.
2. Better- Three SVS SB-1000 or PB-1000 subs for about $1,500 ($500 each) or three SVS SB-3000 subs for about $3,000 ($1,000 each). Three properly positioned and configured subs in a given room typically provides bass response at a designated listening seat that's approaching the optimum quality level attainable at a single listening position. Three subs provide even further increased bass output capacity and impact as well as further increased bass dynamics due to the sharing of total bass requirements between three subs operating well within their limits and stress free with very large power reserves for sudden bass output dynamic demands. Psychoacoustic principles are more strongly applied with the use of three subs, as opposed to two subs, in any given room that results in the bass being perceived as even smoother, more detailed and better integrated with the main speakers.
3. Best- The Audio Kinesis 4-sub Swarm distributed bass array(DBA) system for about $2,800. This is a complete kit that includes four 4 ohm unamplified subs that are each 1' x 1' x 28", weigh 44lbs and have a 10" aluminum long-throw driver and a 1,000 watt class AB amplifier/controller that powers all four subs and controls the volume, crossover frequency and phase of all as a group. The use of a 4-sub DBA system will provide near state of the art bass performance not only at a single listening position but throughout the entire room. This is very useful if you have multiple seating positions in your room and prefer having very good audio at each position for both music and HT.
Of course, only the designated listening position will be optimized for both bass response and midrange, treble response and stereo imaging but very good full-range audio will still be provided at each seating position. Since you also mentioned you want to add room treatments, another benefit of the 4-sub DBA option#3 is that absolutely no bass room treatments are necessary. You'd just need to incorporate room treatments for the midrange and treble response on your main speakers (first reflection points on each side wall and possibly some treatment on the front and rear walls). You also could create your own custom 4-sub DBA system, rather than using the complete Swarm system, by utilizing four SVS SB or PB-1000 subs for about $1,900 ( $950 discounted price for a each pair of SVS subs). The only down side is that you'd need to configure the volume, crossover frequency and phase settings individually for each of the four SVS subs rather than once for all four subs as a group on the Swarm system. Here's a link to an Absolute Sound review of the A K Swarm system that is very accurate (I use this system in a 23'x16'x8' room with Magnepan main speakers and it works like a charm).
I bought a ps audio s300 when I had to have my tube Amp serviced... I knew it was going to take a while and was going to be entertaining some out of town visitors. I’m shocked at how good it sounds.
I’d tried class D before and, while initially impressed... Eventually left me cold...Too Sterile and thin sounding to my ears.
Does it sound as good as my Musical Reference RM9 mk2? No...but I really like it and didn’t switch back for quite a while once I got my tube Amp back. I could easily live with it as my main Amp.
It probably helps that I’m feeding it with a great tube linestage.
Tweak1, after endless searching, I realized that I cant buy in USA $$$$. So I decided on apollon as4800, 8 channel using 1200as2 for $3200.00. After some serious deep digging apollon is extremely well constructed, 1200as is latest tech, very well laid out. D sonic, ati, cherry, etc.... out of my price range. Need this for surround, 4 atmos and center. I will keep my fronts with the bat. My room does double duty ht and music. After this I am doing room treatment and 2 svs sb3000. Very excited to see how this as4800 performs. Hoping for the best. Once broken in, I will try it on the fronts. Hoping to go all class d. Pete
Hello @aolmrd1241, you are right... My review of the Rowland M535 bridgeable amp is woefully late. I have written some seven MSWord pages this ffar, but it is still not complete... I'll try to speed things up.
I agree George. I have a Bat amp that is outstanding. And a very nice 3ch B&K. But I still want to try the class d and see what all the hype is about. And I really do hope it doesn't disappoint. If it turns out to be excellent I will report that, if it sucks I will also report that and return. I do believe in the advancements in technology. So I never dismiss that. Pete
On a slightly different note. I don't understand why people are not entitled to there opinions. Get over it, some people just like class d. I've only heard one class d, Gato and although I didn't listen long, for the short time I did, it sound very nice. If you dont like class d, nothing is obligating you to respond to that thread. Not everyone can afford 10k or more for amps.
After much research, I will be placing an order with apollon in 3 weeks. My decision was left between apollon and nord, for various reasons I chose apollon. I will be ordering the 8 ch 1200as2, believe its as4800 model. It will be awhile, but I will report back with my findings. Hoping for the best.
After a lot of soul searching, yesterday I pulled the trigger on a RIc Schultz EVS 1200 (600wpc). His product page, does not yet reflect a number of newer mods
arcamguy If anyone has experience with both the 600M and the M700
A buddy and I thought the BC 600M’s were the best we’ve heard Class-D we were very taken by them, but it was on a benign flat 6ohm impedance load Rahl ribbon 2way speaker, we heard it on something else and it didn’t do near as good. And it’s too expensive here in OZ over $7k a pair
My buddy then went OS and got to listen to the Technics SE-R1 "GaN based output Class-D with 1.5mHz switching frequency", he text while listening and said "this technology is the future forget the 600m’s".
guidocorona said..." I will post some observations about the darling Rowland M535 tomorrow... It won’t be the complete review, but I’ll try address some differences between M535 in stereo mode, and a bridged pair..Saluti, Guido"
Hello Guido... Is the Rowland M535 review by any chance close to nearing completion yet?
I have had and listened to many amps and have been in this stupid game many years. I have settled on class d because it sounds so Damn good for the money but also for the convenience. Yes a krell fpb300 sounds better than my sti500 but not that much better, and costs way more up front, way more to run and will probably need repair sooner. The only real area that is better is some image depth and 3d, but its not much. I don't think there is better value than good class d. Plus I have never even listen to good class d, driven by a really good tube amp. That may be the real end game! Have fun playing the game! I do.
"Hello @aolmrd1241 and @KLH007, I will post some observations about the darling Rowland M535 tomorrow... It won’t be the complete review, but I’ll try address some differences between M535 in stereo mode, and a bridged pair..Saluti, Guido"
Hello Guido... Is the Rowland M535 review by any chance close to nearing completion yet?
One caveat: ordered Rothwell -10db Attenuator because preamp+power amp gain is too high, I can’t go beyond 9 o’clock on volume pot, so attenuator will help in pushing noise floor down and give system room to breathe.
"One caveat: ordered Rothwell -10db Attenuator" You "push" both signal and noise down of the source and pre, and "maybe" create an impedance mismatch so your no better off.
If you really want to lower the noise floor, get a preamp with less or no gain, then you’ll use most of the signal available from source, pre and power without boosting the noise floor.
Few days ago I got new class-D Nord NC500 mk3+SI opamp, connected to Primaluna Prologue tube preamp and Chord 2Qute DAC. That combination have total control over Focal 1028be, driving them with such ease, but also tube smoothness and musicality. Couldn't be more happier, never heard something driving big focals with such control. One caveat: ordered Rothwell -10db Attenuator because preamp+power amp gain is too high, I can't go beyond 9 o'clock on volume pot, so attenuator will help in pushing noise floor down and give system room to breathe.
I've been curious how a pair of .7 Magnepans would sound being driven with very good amplification. Now that it's been confirmed as a good combo, I'm curious how it could be improved with 1 or 2 good subs. Better yet, how would they perform in a room with a complete 4 sub DBA bass system like the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra?
I would imagine that the state of the art bass provided by the AK Swarm ($2,800) combined with the excellent mid-range and treble performance provided by the Magnepan .7 panels ($1,300/pr) would be extremely hard to better, especially at anything close to $4,100.
With sota bass throughout the entire room as a solid foundation, The relatively small and light .7 panels could then be optimally positioned in relation to the listening seat for best mid/treble frequency response and imaging.
I'm fairly certain the Swarm bass system would integrate seamlessly with the .7 panels because it does so with my much larger (6' x2')Magnepan 2.7QR panels in my 23x 16 x8 ft room.
By the way, I completely agree with you that there are an abundance of really good class D amps on the market right now. As you've so wisely stated, "the new fast GaN FETs and Atmo-Sphere patent pending circuitry's ability to significantly reduce or eliminate dead-time and further reduce the existing extremely low distortion levels will likely only make the future prospects of class D amps even brighter and more exciting".
See the forest through the trees? I think you mean See the forest for the trees Are you okay? You seem to be mixing things up and I think you're mixing me up with miveraaudio.
It seems like miveraaudio owns Mivera Audio. I read some of his previous responding posts and I think he is or was an amp assembler (like Nord) that used the Ice 1200AS modules in his own cases. Many of his previous posts were advocating class D and especially the Ice Edge 1200AS module. He appeared to be doing some self promoting on some of his other posts and I think somehow you mixed him up with me. I have no idea who this individual is and I think you're associating him with me for some reason. I have no idea what you're talking about so l'm just going to drop it and forget about it. I suggest you may want to do the same.
I thought you knew that I'm not, and have never been, a retailer. I'm just a 60 yr old music, ht and audio/video equipment enthusiast in Indiana. I am a big fan of class D amps (I own ClassD Audio, Emerald Physics and D-Sonic amps) and distributed bass array systems (I own the Audio Kinesis Debra) but have no affiliations with any of these companies or any other companies. Now, if you want to accuse me of being a fan boy of either, I definitely plead guilty. I understand it's bad form to post here without declaring you're a retailer, dealer, owner or associated with any of these. I've never self promoted anything since I've never had anything to promote besides products or technologies I have personal experience with and consider of high quality. If you're going to accuse me or anyone else of self promoting, please don't do it on nothing more than a hunch and have the good sense and courage to present your allegations in a more direct and responsible manner.
I had a client replace his $18000 Mola Mola Kaluga amps with one of my $999 Icepower 1200AS based amps. And he now has better sound. He liked them so much he bought 4 in total. So at 18x the price, and worse sound, I wouldn't consider them a bargain.
Tweak 1: That has been exactly my experience too now with three months into enjoying the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC preamp/M700 monoblocks combo, in my case driving/feeding Thiel CS2.4s and two SVS SB2000 subs.
Apparently they were driven by Triangle Art class A monos. I'm getting the sense that the harshness we both heard was mostly endemic to the speakers themselves. Now that you said that, I would really like to hear the Merrill amps with a more neutral speaker.
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