My Ref 1 and these Koetsus are all spec'ed at a .4mV output, so I am guessing the XP-17, and most quality phono stages would handle these (noise wise)?
Yes. You shouldn’t have any problems with the XP-17 at an output voltage like that.
Where to go from XP-15? XP-17? XP-25?
I've been happy with the XP-15 for a number of years - first supporting my modded AR ES-1, then a VPI Classic 3, and now my Avenger (my final stop, I hope). I love the fine adjustability of MC loading and the gain which will support running carts down to about .2 mV. But with the Avenger I think I've reached a point where I should consider a move, in part because everything I find about the XP-25 seems to indicate it is far and away an improvement over the XP-15. With the inclusion of the XP-17, however, I'm now a little hesitant.
I run two arms on the Avenger, so it might suggest going to the XP-25 is an easy decision, plus the well regarded sound quality (I've heard the 25 a number of times, but not in my own system). OTOH the XP-17 is based on some of the same technology that's in the XP-25, plus it's a one box solution (I kind of like that). The questions out there for anyone who can help - has anyone been able to compare the XP-17 to the XP-25? How do they sound compared to each other? Would the XP-17 be considered a step up or at least equal to the XP-25? If the XP-17 is generally considered a must try next to the 25, I can always run it face into the rack and keep the back end exposed for tonearm and loading changes (not pretty, but effective).
I'm also a little concerned about any change in sound from the previous generation Pass gear to the new (12, 22, 17, 27). I've read, for example, multiple views back and forth between the .5 and .8 series amps, a few saying Pass' reduction in negative feedback and modification to the second harmonic character in the .8 are not to their liking. I hadn't heard if there's been such a (perceived) change in the small signal Pass devices.
I run two arms on the Avenger, so it might suggest going to the XP-25 is an easy decision, plus the well regarded sound quality (I've heard the 25 a number of times, but not in my own system). OTOH the XP-17 is based on some of the same technology that's in the XP-25, plus it's a one box solution (I kind of like that). The questions out there for anyone who can help - has anyone been able to compare the XP-17 to the XP-25? How do they sound compared to each other? Would the XP-17 be considered a step up or at least equal to the XP-25? If the XP-17 is generally considered a must try next to the 25, I can always run it face into the rack and keep the back end exposed for tonearm and loading changes (not pretty, but effective).
I'm also a little concerned about any change in sound from the previous generation Pass gear to the new (12, 22, 17, 27). I've read, for example, multiple views back and forth between the .5 and .8 series amps, a few saying Pass' reduction in negative feedback and modification to the second harmonic character in the .8 are not to their liking. I hadn't heard if there's been such a (perceived) change in the small signal Pass devices.
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Thanks Tony! I am about to up my vinyl game after getting back into it after a hiatus from the mid 80's. I made a nostalgia purchase a year and a half ago of a nice Denon DP62L with a Hana EH, and Vista Audio Phono2 preamp just to reintroduce myself back to LP playback. To my surprise I have been really enjoying it! A couple months ago I purchase a used Charisma Audio Reference One cart and that turned out to be a nice / different improvement from the Hana. Yesterday I made an agreement to buy a dealer demo Dr. Feikert Woodpecker to replace the vintage Denon/ I will plan to use the Ref. One cart for the time being, but would love to get a Koetsu Rosewood or Urushi in the future. My Ref 1 and these Koetsus are all spec'ed at a .4mV output, so I am guessing the XP-17, and most quality phono stages would handle these (noise wise)?
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@hpower, yes I did get it from Reno. All I can tell you is that I’m very happy with it. Sounds great, handles all my carts with ease, but as @dgarretson pointed out it is a little noisy with extremely low output MCs. Doesn’t bother me as I don’t use my Ortofon A95 too often, and even when I do I’m far enough away from my speakers to keep it from being an issue. Its sound fits my system very nicely. While I’ve heard the Modwright at shows (very nice), I don’t have any side by side experience with it. |
@dgarretson The reference made to the Bocchino Products has been very useful, as I have been collecting information about suppliers of suitable Copper Connectors for my ongoing Projects being produced. I have been demonstrated WBT - Low Eddy RCA Connectors used on a Phonostage Chassis and used on a very expensive RCA Phono Cable as a A/B comparison to the Manufacturers selected connector. The WBT - Low Eddy configuration was in my view exceptional and stood out as the most attractive during the demonstrations. The 'envelope' of the note and vocal when being presented via the Low Eddy connection was seemingly tangible, definitely traceble at it manifested. This was one of the moments when there was no doubt, it was something to be aspired to. I can see from your Post you are quite willing to find a way to improve on your Circuits selected components, I am very comfortable with such practices and am sure you are receiving the best of the benefits. When my Phon' was produced for me, I had a input to the choice of certain components beyond the Designer/Builders selection. I purchased and gave them up for exchanges. Evaluations were only to take place after a 100ish hours of usage, achieved through using the Phon', via, a Hagerman Reverse RIAA and CDP on repeat play. The outcome of the Component exchanges as a comparison to the original Spec' was substantial, even the designer was unable to contain their thoughts and were appraising the positive impression made to the SQ. |
Hey Tony, I realize this thread is a few years old but I would love to hear a follow up on your XP-17, assuming you did end up getting one from Reno? I am thinking about a XP-17 or perhaps a Modwright PH 9.0X. Both are approx. the same price, one tubed and one SS. The speakers I run are about 107db efficiency, so I would particularly like to know how quite you found the XP-17? |
I have the highest respect for Nelson Pass and his products, but it seems to me that at this stage of the game (in reference to the evolution of solid state audio devices), any decent SS phono stage should already be "dead quiet", which is to say, not noticeably a source of added noise, even at the highest gain settings. Even my Manley Steelhead, which is a hybrid design, fits that description. So, I often wonder at the endless claims of "blacker backgrounds" and etc. SQ can always get better or evolve to be more suited to the taste of a particular listener, but S/N ought already be very very good for high end solid state devices. |
Well, when I spoke to Kent he said the new 17 and 27 have improved power and also lower noise (with of course the 27 being better still). Mark at Reno says I should expect a blacker background and improved dynamics. As I use some low output carts including an A95, I figured it might be a good step to take for me. |
A long delayed update. After speaking to a bunch of other folks, including Pass' Kent and Desmond at AXPONA, I decided to go for the XP-17. I can't swing even a used XP-27, and both K and D use and prefer the XP-17 over the XP-25. While none of this means it will be the best choice in my own system, I'm hoping it points to a positive outcome. Ordered from Mark at Reno; should be here early next week. Interestingly, Mark feels the XP-25 does something tonally, and to the better, that the newer phono pre's do not. However, he does think the XP-17 is a definite improvement over the 15. According to him no one who has made that move has returned their 17. As I'm also trying to reduce the physical footprint of my gear (another two box Pass device was not the right direction for me), I think I made the right choice, all things considered. I guess I'll see. |
I did it myself. You need good soldering and desoldering skills. The Pass unit is easily disassembled. There is space for the larger coupling caps mounted on perf board raised above a small section of the main PCB. The Bocchino RCAs are solderless with compression fittings and heavy silver plating over solid copper base metal. Just remember that you will void the warranty, and if it ever needs service, Pass’s formal policy is to first return the unit to stock condition. I doubt they would care about the resistor and RCA changes, but you might have to reinstall the stock coupling caps. PM for details and photos if you decide go for an XP-25. |
Replaced the loading resistors, which are clearly labeled, with Texas Components TX2575 nude resistors, and replaced the stock electrolytic and MKP coupling caps with ClarityCap 4.7uf CMR. Replaced the stock Cardas RCAs with Bocchino Tomahawks and WBT Next Gen. Next step is to try a Less Loss 64x firewall in the power supply. No reason that I can see to abandon the XP-25. |
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Dear @tonyptony : Pass devices/items are a guarantee of high quality level performance, designs and excecution to those designs. The answer with out doubt is to go a head for the two box XP-25. The 17 has no single advantage over the 25 other than a lower price. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
