When to choice XLR over RCA ICs.

@cleeds - re:

williewonka

The best low mass RCA connector is significantly better at transferring an audio signal than the very best XLR connector is able to achieve ...

Hmmm, that’s quite a claim.

The KLE Innovations RCA have always been outstanding RCA connectors and according to others that have compared them to some very good XLR connectors on cables of similar contruction methods and maerials, the KLEI RCA’s performed better.

• This goes back abut 7 years and the KLE Innovations RCA have continued to get better in that time

RE:

Not when used between differentially balanced components that yield 6 dB better gain (or s/n) when operated in balanced mode, such as ARC.

In my view, an extra 6db gain does not result in improved dynamics, clarity and details - it’s just louder

Since personal preferemces tend to play a large role in cable selection e.g...

• I’ve known people that prefered using Duelund tinned copper over pure OCC copper, just because it sounds better to their ears
  • technically, OCC is faster and less prone to the timing distortions that occur when you mix two types of metal

But debating the differences between XLR and RCA for a high performance cable really is a moot point, however...

• people should be aware that the differences really are miniscule in high quality cables today, so opting for RCA is not really settling for second best any more

If a person really wants to improve their sound by replacing cables then I would really recommend they follow the link included in my first post above which covers the improvements that can be achieved by ensuring their cables use modern geometry, improved metals and insulations and state of the art and connectors.

Regards - Steve

williewonka

... an extra 6db gain does not result in improved dynamics, clarity and details - it's just louder ...

No, it's not just "louder." For the same output level, the differentially balanced connection (such as with ARC) will yield a 6 dB better s/n.

... the signle ended RCA interconnect for a 1-2 meter cable will always be just a little superior to an XLR ables of a similar design/geometry/build.

Why would I forsake that 6 dB gain (or s/n advantage) in a connection such as between pickup arm and phono preamp? That makes no sense. And there's no way your unbalanced connection can equal the noise rejection of a balanced circuit. That's why we have balanced circuits.

In my view, an extra 6db gain does not result in improved dynamics, clarity and details - it’s just louder

Since personal preferemces tend to play a large role in cable selection e.g...

• I’ve known people that prefered using Duelund tinned copper over pure OCC copper, just because it sounds better to their ears
  • technically, OCC is faster and less prone to the timing distortions that occur when you mix two types of metal

But debating the differences between XLR and RCA for a high performance cable really is a moot point, however...

• people should be aware that the differences really are miniscule in high quality cables today, so opting for RCA is not really settling for second best any more

No, it's not just "louder." For the same output level, the differentially balanced connection (such as with ARC) will yield a 6 dB better s/n

Why would I forsake that 6 dB gain (or s/n advantage) in a connection such as between pickup arm and phono preamp?

@williewonka @cleeds The 6dB increase in volume only occurs if the balanced line standard is ignored.

For example in the case of a phono cartridge, the output level does not change if the cartridge is operated either way. IOW the cartridge when operated balanced, conforms to AES48 (the balanced standard).

But if operated balanced, you have up to a 6dB improvement in the signal to noise ratio of the gain stage itself. You also have the rejection of noise that is common to the non-inverted and inverted parts of the signal. So a power transformer by the cable is far less able to induce hum into it.

The 6dB improvement in signal to noise of the gain stage is theoretical. The greater the differential effect that is winnowed out of the gain stage the more you approach that possibility. To that end, and this is directed at cleeds, the constant current source feeding the differential amplifier is the key to the differential amplifier's performance. So if you wanted to improve your ARC preamp's performance this would be the thing to investigate. 

I see the really big advantage of balanced lines in that you don't have to have an expensive cable with exotic materials for it to sound just as good as a cable that does have the exotic construction and materials. IOW you get cable immunity. I've demonstrated this many times over the last 40 years.

Where this really plays out well is the tonearm cable! If there is any place to really get it right, this is it, because no matter how good your preamp, amps and speakers are, they can't make up for any losses to the signal upstream.

atmasphere

... The 6dB increase in volume only occurs if the balanced line standard is ignored ...

Yes, you’ve pointed that out previously. That’s why I specifically mentioned Audio Research in my example, because that’s the equipment I use.

The 6dB improvement in signal to noise of the gain stage is theoretical

In my example of ARC, it’s listed in the specs, it can be measured and - most important - it can be heard. It is very, very real.

I see the really big advantage of balanced lines in that you don’t have to have an expensive cable

Yes, that is a potential advantage. As we’ve previously discussed, it’s not the only advantage, but I understand you feel passionately about it.

@atmasphere - RE:

I see the really big advantage of balanced lines in that you don’t have to have an expensive cable with exotic materials for it to sound just as good as a cable that does have the exotic construction and materials.

if by exotic materials you are referring to OCC copper, OCC silver and low Dialectric contant insulation, then I have found that

• OCC copper and OCC silver are vastly superior to ofther variants (e.g. copper alloys like Copper/gold and copper/tungston) in terms of dynamic performance
• this allows them to recreate a signal that is more accurate i.e. compared to the original signal
• which in turn recreates the image of the venue in which the track was recorded more accurately.
• Insulations that have a low dialectric constant result in less noise being generated within the cable, hence improved clarity, which once again improved on the recreation of the recording venue in the resulting image
• This applies to single ended cables and ballanced cables alike

This has been verified by many members of the audiophile community across the globe that have tried many variations of both wire types and insulatons, with whom I have conversed while developing my own DIY cables. Many of them were building XLR versions of the Helix AIR DIY RCA Cables that used the same OCC metals, and insulations.

So basically the same geometry, wire types and insulations, the only real difference being the connectors, but even they both used silver plated copper pins.

FYI, the development of these cables has taken approximately 10 years so far, with constant assessment of sound quality improvements (or changes, sometimes not for the better), by many individuals from around the globe, so there were many ears listening to many systems of varying abilities and performance levels.

But as I said earlier, in the end it boils down to individual preferences.

• no two systems are the same
• no two sets of ears are the same

Regars - Steve

@williewonka I'd be curious to see if there is a difference in the sound of the cables when the supporting equipment also supports the balanced standard.

Just like single-ended, if the balanced line standard isn't supported you hear big differences between balanced cables.

But the goal of the standard is to eliminate that problem- because it is a problem! Plug and play is the goal, regardless of the cable and over the last 70 years or so, its worked really well (all hifi recordings from the 50s and 60s used balanced lines).

So it would be really interesting to see if OCC wire actually made a difference.

@atmasphere I have Pass Labs XP22 preamplifier and X260.8 mono amps and I can hear the difference between XLR interconnects. I’ve tried a few at various price points. The difference was enough to choose one set over another

@atmasphere , a very good and affordable cable is Audio Envy

• OCC copper
• Very good insulation with low dielectric constant value
• Gold plated copper xlr connector
• You can purchase by the foot

You should hear a significant improvement in dynamics and imaging.

Venue acoustics should make a performance more lifelike

Percussive instruments should sound "crisper". E.G.

• Glockenspiel, the strike of the hammer can be heard
• String instruments, you should hear the nails on the string as it is plucked
• Drums are more crisp, like a gun shot

They have quite the following on audiogon.

They also make very good power and speaker cables

If you stream from a service then try listening to

• Nelly Furtado, great vocal recordings
• Roxette - very dynamic guitar and drums
• The Police, great bass and drums
• Pink, very good vocal recording on slower tracks
• Ed sheeran uses some unique Percussive instruments

On vinyl, I have recordings on the Tacet lable that excel in live classical performances, especially in the area of venue acoustics.

Hope that helps

Regards Steve

@atmasphere - just thought I would let you in on my own single ended journey...

• I’ve always been a DIYer with all things pertaining to cables and originally built my own using Van den Hul wire
• about 11-12 years ago a friend convinced me to start a web site where I could post my reviews of various things tried
  • and so My Audio Alchemy (image99.net) was aired
• I first submitted a review on the Eichman Silver Bullet RCA;s that I had installed on my turntable
• Keith Louie Eichman of KLE Innovations read the review and asked me to review his latest RCA connectors
• After those reviews, he then asked me to review his RCA cables, which are very good cables
• after learning some things about cables from him and the role they play in a system, I went on to design a build my first HELIX DIY cables using wire from old LAN Cables with the KLE Innovations RCA plugs. The results were so good I then started to think about better wire
• During this time, several people from europe tried the HELIX DIY cables and suggested changes to the wire used, which I tried for myself and if warranted, I published the changes on the web site
• One Audiogon member read about the Helix cables and decided to try them - his findings can be found here
  • Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling
• fast torward to around 2020 - I was introduced to OCC Copper and adapted all f my cables to OCC Copper
• I then introduce the AIR concept to the cables, which takes the dielectric constant to very low values, because the teflon tube insulation is not molded to the actual wire, so there is an air gap between the most of the wire and a the teflon tube. This improved clarity and details significantly
• lastly, I decided to use two wires for the signal conductor, where each wire is in its own teflon tube AND I started using OCC silver
  • the results were very detailed, with oustanding clairty and dynamics.

The Helix DIY AIR cables are amazingly articulate and neutral, with clear and detailed performance across the entire frequency range, with an extremely dynamic performance. They propvide a truly immersive image in three dimensions

Happy reading - Steve

@williewonka If single-ended all bets are off. There is no way you can prevent single-ended cables from having an artifact unless you introduced a standard and had all the cables made to meet that standard, which would probably include a low impedance termination. That in turn would likely prevent most single-ended preamps made today from supporting the standard. So yes, I can imagine all the things you listed making a difference.

My point here is simply that's a bad thing- not a good thing because no matter how good your cable is now, next year, sooner or later, there will be a better example of that cable and so the cable you have now will be so much junk.

In my example of ARC, it’s listed in the specs, it can be measured and - most important - it can be heard. It is very, very real.

@cleeds To accomplish that theoretical 6dB lower noise per gain stage, the constant current source has to be excellent performance so it can force the actual differential amplifier to be as differential as possible. And as you say, it is not only measurable but also audible; we're on the same page- its very, very real.