When to choice XLR over RCA ICs.

atmasphere

... The 6dB increase in volume only occurs if the balanced line standard is ignored ...

Yes, you’ve pointed that out previously. That’s why I specifically mentioned Audio Research in my example, because that’s the equipment I use.

The 6dB improvement in signal to noise of the gain stage is theoretical

In my example of ARC, it’s listed in the specs, it can be measured and - most important - it can be heard. It is very, very real.

I see the really big advantage of balanced lines in that you don’t have to have an expensive cable

Yes, that is a potential advantage. As we’ve previously discussed, it’s not the only advantage, but I understand you feel passionately about it.

williewonka

... an extra 6db gain does not result in improved dynamics, clarity and details - it's just louder ...

No, it's not just "louder." For the same output level, the differentially balanced connection (such as with ARC) will yield a 6 dB better s/n.

... the signle ended RCA interconnect for a 1-2 meter cable will always be just a little superior to an XLR ables of a similar design/geometry/build.

Why would I forsake that 6 dB gain (or s/n advantage) in a connection such as between pickup arm and phono preamp? That makes no sense. And there's no way your unbalanced connection can equal the noise rejection of a balanced circuit. That's why we have balanced circuits.

williewonka

The best low mass RCA connector is significantly better at transferring an audio signal than the very best XLR connector is able to achieve ...

Hmmm, that's quite a claim. It's not too difficult to buy XLR connectors that are essentially electrically perfect, so I don't see how it's possible to get "significantly better" than that.

... the signle ended RCA interconnect for a 1-2 meter cable will always be just a little superior to an XLR ables of a similar design/geometry/build.

Not when used between differentially balanced components that yield 6 dB better gain (or s/n) when operated in balanced mode, such as ARC.

williewonka

... a very well designed single ended interconnect cable is every bit as good, if not better than an XLR cable due to several factors ...

If all else is equal and the cables are being used between truly balanced components, I can’t imagine a scenario where unbalanced RCA connections could be better than balanced connections.

@atmasphere we are mostly in agreement and this debate is getting tiresome.

The two benefits lost are cable immunity and susceptibility to ground loops, since ground is referenced by the output of the device. This isn’t a matter of opinion or debate. Those two things are literally the goals of the balanced line system.

The value of a balanced system using balanced lines is not confined to those two goals. This is where you drift into circular reasoning. (As you well know, balanced systems also enjoy the benefit of CMNR, whether AES48 compliant or not.) Nor is it true that being non-compliant with AES48 inherently subjects a product to being sensitive to ground loops. Again, it is implementation, implementation, implementation.

We mostly agree, Ralph, so I’m inclined to leave the last word to you. Or, feel free to PM me.

atmasphere

What is debatable is the use of balanced lines actually being an advantage when the standard isn’t supported ... Sometimes its better, sometimes its not ...

I agree completely, and made that point because I disagreed with your prior claim:

the Sony doesn’t support the balanced standard ... When this sort of thing goes on, you lose most of the benefit of going balanced.

You do not inherently lose "most of the benefit" of balanced components by not supporting AES48, imo. Sometimes it’s better, sometimes it’s not. As for this:

... I don’t know of a way that has a ’negative sonic effect’ that is specific to AES48 ...

I’ve seen and heard AES48 compliant balanced components that sounded w-a-y better on the SE inputs and you probably have, too. When cheap tiny xformers are used for the conversion it can suck the HF right out of the sound. Same thing if cheap opamp ICs are used. Of course, poor implementations such as those don’t render the standard any more invalid than the standard renders all non-compliant components invalid. It all depends on the implementation.

atmasphere

... it means the Sony doesn't support the balanced standard ... When this sort of thing goes on, you lose most of the benefit of going balanced.

What is the greatest advantage of using balanced components? There are multiple advantages, so the answer is subjective and debatable. In my view, the answer is lower noise. That would explain why we see so many differntially balanced components that do not comply with the AES48 standard that you tout.

There are several ways of designing an AES48 compliant component, and some have negative sonic effects. So the AES48 standard is not itself a guarantee of performance.

davetheoilguy

... everything in my system except the turntable have balanced connections, and I’d do that, too if I could find a turntable Inlike that was balanced ...

Phono cartridges are inherently balanced or, if you want to be strictly accurate, they are floating. That is, there's a separate positive and negative for each channel. All that's needed to maintain that is a balanced phono preamp. It may be the best place in an audio system to use balanced lines and truly balanced components, such as ARC.

Many differentially balanced components will yield 6dB more gain when operated fully balanced - that is, balanced input and output. Another way to look at that is a 6dB improvement in s/n. That can be noticeable.