Correction:
I should have written that Steve N. declared that his latest DAC finally not ONLY equals but may be even surpass vinyl.....
Sorry |
Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio proudly declares that his latest USB dac finally not equals but may even surpass vinyl. The man has golden ears apart from being a technically ingenious and highly innovative. I find , that he is right. It is all there now, the soul I mean. It IS still different from vinyl, but digital is not musically "dead" anymore. Even older CDs can be brought to be "soulfully" alive. I find the discussion of what is "better", digital or vinyl, should end. The music has come home to us. |
I think it just has. Give a listen to Soundkeeper Recordings. Latest release, AMERICAS, is a real game changer.
Read reviews and Blogs.... Then buy an album ( I like AMERICAS , EQUINOX, and LIFT in that order )
WebSite is soundkeeperrecordings.com You won't be disappointed. Best sounding digital recordings I've heard. |
MY LINN Akurate DS already has the soul of the music... |
Detlof, I have to agree that we are strongly moving to much better digital. Recently, I have discovered how substantially vulnerable to vibrations dacs are and how much EMI and RFI gets into dacs from the digital wire to it. The vibrations did not really come as a surprise to me as I have been on a slippery and expensive slope. StillPoints products have been a revelation as to how insidious vibrations are. But recently a friend sent me a Hitachi Finemet core through which I ran the Firewire cable to the Weiss DAC202 dac. It was placed close to the dac. Framkly it transformed my digital. Where can you get one of these cores? I don't know, but I have tried other ferrite rings and they don't do what this does.
This is what I found out about Finemet. "Hitachi Metals developed the first nanocrystalline soft magnetic material in the world, named “FINEMET®”. “FINEMET®” has high saturation flux density and high permeability. It also has stable temperature characteristics. “FINEMET®” provides excellent performance in electromagnetic noise suppression and contributes to energy saving. It will allow reduction in size and weight of electric and electronics devices as well. It is our hope, “FINEMET®” will be the best solution for your application due to its unique soft magnetic properties."
Do I think it is better than my vinyl? No, it is different and certainly more convenient. Do I think it is quite listenable? Yes, certainly. |
These days its up to the listener to derive "the soul" from whatever they chose to listen to, not the format.
Some will work to achieve it. Others will not. Some will prefer to whine and complain or maybe buy into conspiracy theories no matter. To each their own! Whatever turns you on. |
To my ears digital, done right, has finally come home...with the right gear. |
If you really want goosebumps, I can honestly recommend the Great Northern Sound Company Statement mod for the Wadia S7i. Paired with a good ss amp and tube preamp, heaven is just a remote button away. Yes, speakers and cable would help also. :) |
EVS/ Ric Schultz does a blu- ray modification to the OPPO 95 that's downright addictive and frankly unbelievable until heard. So musical and sweet, extended yet articulate. The digital sound has come a long way, a really long way. I have a beautiful analog set up about 5K and Ric's modified Oppo 95 challenges my TT in many ways and it's definitely got soul and then some. It's magical to my ears. I do of course have the ancillary equipment perfectly matched, amp 25 watt class A pentode into 97 db speakers with dual 12" servo drivers per side and hand built cross over's on top. All for under 10K less cables and ac conditioning. I'll put it up against 50K system anyday and bet I get a least half buying and saving.
the speakers are a kit but awesome, I put it together professionally, the amp is hand built in the US like the speakers all point to point wiring with a nice kicker LIFE TIME Guaranteed on the AMP parts and labor less tubes after 90 days. Speakers are not small but not huge and the subwoofers are state of the art an included in the 5K. I have two other speakers Sonus Auditors w/ rel sub and Revel speakers with Revel sub and my above mentioned systems is decimating the latter two speaker that both cost 8K plus respectively just for the speakers. That mark up is lost value the way I see it and it's taken forever for me to learn this shit. The cables are important regardless of what anyone says. The designers of these components also make cables but I'd try all of them as they are completely affordable and claims are made that they match cost no object but I'm not sure about that. I use very high end cables in all my systems and now I'm hearing some amazing sound. My kids are rocking out most of the time, so I know its really good. |
Digital has SOUL as long as the mastering was done right and you have a well made and designed player. Early digital was like the 78 record, and like analog, it improved over time, as more was understood about this new technology.
The one advantage vinyl has if your a boomer is the records when 1st pressed came from master tape (1st 100,000) that was fresh, digital had to work with the same tapes if found that could be 30-50 years old. So if you had the 1st pressing and it was mastered well then you will have good Sonics and perhaps better than a cd mastered well of the same album because of the years of damage done to the tape, and even if they could find the master tape anymore, most used back-up tapes.
Digital had to work with these old tapes, had to remaster them, and in some case remix them. The knock on digital is not fair and this constant attack on CD medium is for one reason only, too try to keep a hobby that is dying going and get younger people involved.
Having owned both Vinyl and Digital I can say I enjoyed both as much as long as they are mastered right, a lot of vinyl sounded just poor, just like CD's.
I have learned using digital that noise is #1 issue, vinyl issues are many, and one of course is the coloration of platter, arm and cart chosen, none of this is bad because in the end you choose the "sound" of your liking. Nevertheless, a turntable is not going through electronics to reproduce music like a cd player, preamp, or amp do.
Stereophile and others reviewed CD and players and said superb sound, outstanding detail and imaging etc. So now, they say it sounds like crap and the masses follow and of course something new to market and sell.
Recorded music is dying, sales are down no matter the format, and for good reason the boomers are older, younger folks buy tracks not whole album anymore. Vinyl sales account for .05% of the market so folks this is the last hurrah for all formats, so collect while you can.
CD did one thing good for us all and that was making available LP’s that would never have seen the light of day again. So much music was released due to the popular new format that studios saw they could resell the same old LP again in a new format, sounds like the down load push to me, though much less will be released.
I know many of my CD’s will not see the light of day, and I really don’t want to lose the feel and touch of my music collection.
Moreover, let us be honest do you need great systems for Rap, Hip-Hop, Corporate Pop, and Rock County music that been processed to death.
Not to mention the newest trend in recording mastering, make very thing the same loudness and in your face. The new Paul McCartney CD's are just awful, makes the DCC Gold CD's sound like works of art and they are from the early 90's.
You don’t have the great studios anymore, the great producers, and people all playing together in one room with out all the massive over mixing that is done today, they is where the Soul went. Folks laying their tracks down then going home, and let the producers make the recording. It has no Soul.
Folks garbage in and garbage out, do not blame the messenger or the format. Both can sound very good, but neither sounds like the master tape (which none of us have ever heard) nor live music.
This endless debate is useless. Enjoy what you have, and stop being lead by the marketing mags like TAS and Stereophile and others. I find them full of hot air to be polite. They really have an agenda for the manufactures that pay them with ads, and most of all huge discounts on audio gear, and extended loaners for god know how long.
Brings to my mind the radio payola scandals of the 50’s and 60’s and the day of record reps dropping off tons of product free so the store would push them. Think of all magazines as advertisements for product, just like a travel magazine.
Enjoy the music of your choice. |
DSD, i.e., .dff
Google "Sonoma" recording systems.
|
Digital has pretty much closed the gap with Analog, for all intents and purposes. I would argue that you can only tell the differences in direct side by side comparisons. Quite frankly, only the reviewers have time for that.
I had a chance to hear a Reel to Reel tape recording of Harry Belafonte, Live at Carnegie Hall at RMAF. They were demonstrating it in the Playback Designs Room and comparing it with their MPD-3 CD Player/DAC. The tape still sounded better, but not by a whole lot. The tape seemed to have better dynamics and jump factor. One could argue that they are different, but not necessarily better. |
please forgive my last post. It was posted in the wrong forum. Should have been under my system thread in All out assault ! |
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For me, digital has the heart AND soul of music. I'm in music heaven.
. |
So I secured an Ortofon MC A90 cart with very few hours last night. It will need to be broken in... not a bad thing as it means I have many hours of listening pleasure ahead before stylus replacement. I will be giving my Shelter Harmony a rest and will give my comparo of both down the road. Still no pics yet of my system, but they will be fourthcoming when I make the time to take them.
I am curious what load impedance owner's of this cart like ? 10, 50, 100 ohms ? I probably won't get it in my possession until early next week. TIA |
12-17-10: Learsfool
digital processing simply removes too much timbral information, something that designers have always acknowledged and have never been able to fix, despite the great advances digital has indeed made. This is what most people mean when they talk about missing the "soul" in digital recordings.
Thank you..that is exactly my experience. You could not of said it better. Cheers ! |
In all honesty, my post was dripping with sarcasm, but meant to have a humorous tone. It's all in good fun. It just never ceases to amaze me how this debate never seems to end, and consistently rejuvenates itself. I am a digital guy mostly but have dabbled in analog. Recently sold my analog rig after ripping all my my digital from CD's to a hard drive. The PS Audio PWD and Bridge ruined me for analog. I agree both formats have their own advantages and disadvantages.
I will admit that some people don't get my sense of humor :) |
Mekong56 speaks death in his 666 post - be careful! |
That last post was just plain evil. |
When are people going to stop asking this question and just go listen to the format they prefer?
Talk about a dead horse people..... |
Digital does have the soul of the music when mastered right and the same care is taken for setup. This new trend of knocking digital CD format is to pray another generation starts into this hobby.
That is not happening at the numbers that the boomers were in. Clean you discs, try a good CD mat and you may be shocked just how good a CD can sound, and I've had a large LP collection, and yes some LP's sound better, because the master tape was used and that was 40 years ago.
Who knows where that tape went when they mastered a CD, what they have been able to do in the last 10 years with these old analog tapes is amazing to me.
Digital as it's good points, but it always will sound different then a medium that uses vinyl, a platform made of different substances, arms and stylus all add up to a different sonics and color...so their is no absolute right one!
I can listen to my system and get pulled into the music like I did my vinyl in fact some newer cd's have sounded as warm as my 1st pressing vinyl with better dynamics and tone.
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digital can convey the soul of music is digital playback is via the right electronics. Try Naim cd555 with a 552 preamp. $60K later you have very soulful playback indeed. |
Play an uncompressed master file recorded in DSD, and played back through the same DSD recorder and you probably will be hearing a step above a top end vinyl rig and even RTR.
I enjoy both digital and analog mediums and respect that the need for both formats are required to enjoy music. But I always seem to be finishing each listening session with a few DSD master recordings, and realize that it is the chain of transfers that finish up on to a 5" disc, which lets digital down. In my view 16/44.1 up to 24/192 are still not good enough in capturing all the information fed through from an original master.
I cannot comment about DXD, as I haven't heard master files being recorded and then played back in this format, but it seems to be promising from some of the recording engineers that have used it for transfers.
The DSD files I am talking about are available for download (some free) from Blue Coast Records, where a few of the recordings have just gone straight from the mixer through to the A/D DSD converter with just the bare minimum processing used after this to make it available as a download.
Play these files through a DSD dac, and it is a different experience. The playback carries such a strong imaging presence, accuracy and depth of tone, vivid dimensions of artists and a robustness or subtlety in each note, that it is hard to imagine vinyl or red book ever get there. I feel this is mainly due to the lack of ability to either hold all the information or avoid change in accuracy of the original signal.
"To reproduce all the info on vinyl, chances are that during the lacquer cutting process if compression is not used, the present grove would just rip into the previous one. Hence we have more 45rpm vinyl to capture most of the info easily" - comments from a recording engineer who cut vinyl for 30+ years after hearing the DSD masters played back.
Somewhere earlier in this thread, I had written that vinyl has it all (soul) and digital(red book)does not. I would still think that vinyl has the edge over commercial mainstream CD and SACD helps to shorten this gap.
But I have changed my thinking, as I am hopeful that more of these DSD files recorded straight in this format and available for download start to materialize.
It will certainly provide us with a new level of playback accomplishment with plenty of soul.
Neville |
We are getting much closer... I just installed a Cambridge DacMagic 3 and I am running 'hi-rez' 24/96 FLAC files from HDTracks.com via my Macbook Pro into it and the results are very, very good. (Using the digital-out headphone jack of the MacBook with a mini stereo to Toslink cable). Experimenting with both the Pure Music and Decibel software programs to play the files.
I won't say that all the music sounds as good as my vinyl rig, but I will say that it is getting much closer than ever before and listening to music with the hi-rez data files is darn good! |
Charles1dad, typically, I would entirely agree. Listen to the BMC MCCI if you can, and you will understand. |
Tbg,
I understand your point and don`t for a moment doubt that in your current system the analog bests the digital. But on the other hand I`ve read numerous posts where someone states their digital front end (APL NWO 4.0M owners for just one example) now betters or at the very least equals "any" analog system they`ve ever used or have heard. It just goes on and on(as it always will) based on one`s latest experience with a given component. That`s why in absolute terms I can`t except the concept of "the best" in highend audio, there`re far too many varibles. |
Objex and Charles1dad, in a long ago posting on this thread, I basically said what you said plus the additional observation that neither was the equal of good magnetic tapes. I have since greatly improved my digital with a music server from Empirical Audio. This has been an awesome improvement, but now using a new BMC MCCI phono stage, I am hearing what I have never thought possible from vinyl. I often think vinyl cannot be achieving this detail, dynamic, depth, etc. You have to go into this unit with balanced ics, but wow!
As good as my digital has become, it will never equal what I am hearing from vinyl, but of course, all I need to do with my digital is to select from among approximately 175 albums from my Ipad using the Remote app and play it. I can then put away all my cds. |
Objex,
Excellent observation. Currently both mediums when implemented to a high standard can sound superb. Both also have the capacity to sound less than grand. I`ve come to the conclusion one is`nt instrinsically superior to the other. I recognize that for some defending analog has taken on a religious zeal. To each their own. |
This question is ridiculous IMO.
For years, great digital has captured as much of "the soul" of music as any turntable.
Note that I didn't say "more than" any turntable. That would also be absurd.
Both formats now offer compelling, if different, views into the music.
Bob |
I think the Audio Research DAC 8 might have just done it.
It's a redux of the classic tubes/SS dilemma but they've sure got an intoxicating blend of the attributes of digital and analog going in this unit for sure. |
The trouble with the PS Perfectwave, that they did their best devising a chip that interprets the CD content into digital, 1,s and 0s. The 47 Lab transport reads the CD like it is and my AN DAC brings it to living music. |
I believe the processs of reading the data via a laser can be argued to be an analog process. |
In reading a self description of PS Perfectwave, I read the astonishing statement, the CD is not a digital medium, it is analog. Go figure. |
I think it's a relative question. For years, analog off of records and tape resolved much more resolution - just like analog film reolved more detail than digital! Same deal.
Another point of issue, is that most home audio speaker systems aren't dynamic and nibble enough to accurately portray what's on the source material, in a dynamically realistic way. That's what I find anyway. Basically, you're mostly dealing with "non-perfect systems", that have holes and flaws somewhere along the way. So how can you capture it all? Always compromises, regardless |
I have found that a spoon full of tube magic helps the digital go down....the digital go down, the digital go down! Specifically, the Yaoin Tube Stage Buffer, which adds harmonic completeness t a digital front end! |
I agree with your statement and when I have the time to really relax and enjoy music and not wear my engineer hat I usually take a spin down the vinyl highway.
Best wishes! |
Folks, when I said... cymbals sound the same, I meant to really say that with analog, on my system...I am getting much more enjoyment from the cymbals having much better timbre with a more natural attack and decay than achieved with digital...After all, digital is only an aproximation of the natural analog sound wave. To me, it's like the analog sound wave was passed through a very fine filter, stripping the music (instruments) of it's natural space, air,textures and nuances. The soundstage is much deeper and wider with analog. Digital just doesn't do the cymbals justice like analog. Heck, I was a analog naysayer up until early last fall when I decided to plunge into analog head first. I haven't looked back. That said, enjoy the music. Cheers ! |
Rocketitman,
If cymbals sound better with analog in your system ,good for you and be happy. I and apparently others get wonderful music reproduction with our digital sources and are happy and content. You prefer analog that`s great, just stop trying to convince others about what they hear in their individual systems. It`s foolish, trust your ears and we will continue to trust ours.
Best Regards, |
(Sure thing. Here's my poor system...LOL at you...)
I said poor performing system not poor system. I also did not indicate that digital was better. Actually, in most cases I agree that analog is better, just that your statement that all cymbals sound the same with your digital front end means that something must be wrong with your digital front end. As a part time Recording Engineer, that uses a high rez multi track system on locations to record up to 50 concerts a year, and having been in the field for almost 30 years, with the first 10 being analog.....I can tell you that if you can not hear a difference in cymbals then either your hardware or software is compromised.
Now the arguement to which is better is another story for another time. |
Some time back, I touted the Exemplar player, a converted Oppo.
I own the Dennon/Exemplar, his former best--which I think by most standards is still excellent 'digigal'.
As I think about what I get with this player and digital overall, I can't say that it compares with:
Sota Vacuum Table
Koetsu Rosewood Cartridge
Zeta Arm
The first time I heard this combination, with Ella singing, I melted...it was/still is an incredible sound to represent music. We aren't there yet with any digital I've heard.
Good listening,
Larry |
04-19-11: Raymonda
(All cymbals mostly sound alike on a digital rig...not so with analog).
You must have a very poor performing system. Not only should you be able to tell what type of cymbal was use but also what brand of microphone was used to record it. I never have a problem doing so and neither do any of the folks I hang with.
Sure thing. Here's my poor system...LOL at you... Pass Labs XA 100.5 Class monoblocks Wilson Audio W/P 8's Mark levinson 380S pre-amp PS Audio Perfect Wav Dac and Transport Clearaudio Innovation Wood Compact Turnatble Clearaudio Universal Arm w/ VTA lift Shelter Harmony cart Clearaudio Balance Plus Phono stage with ACCU DC power supply. Siltech LS-180 Speaker Wire, MC 4-80 Interconnnect XLR PSAudio AC-10 and AC 12 power cords PS Audio Power Plant Premier Power regenerator. |
I own the Perfect wav system. Cymbals are lacking in digital when compared to analog. You must listen to a good analog rig to even making a comparison. Prior to analog I had no problems with cymbal timbre, attack and decay on my digital front end (I didn't know any better). Even hi-rez sources at 24/96 or higher native sampling rates still don't stack up to the natural sound of cymbals reproduced via a vinyl record. I suspect those that are challenging my assertion don't have high end analog rigs in their systems. To even suggest cymbal production from 16 Bit redbook sources (along with the rest of the music) even compares to good analog is laughable. |
Raymonda,
I agree with your reply to Rockitman regarding cymbal reproduction with digital. It must be a matter of one`s system. I`ve own both a Linn LP12 TT and a Well Tempered Classic TT(better TT than the Linn). Neither of these TTs were superior to my current digital components at all. In terms of nuance, resolution of individual instruments and voice, really being able to distinguish subtle differences of inner detail. The Yamamoto DAC/PS Audio PWT is extraordinary at producing natural pure sound with uncanny realism. Digital sources , when done right can sound stunningly good. |
With my Naim CD555, I can tell which wood the drumsticks are made of! :) |
(All cymbals mostly sound alike on a digital rig...not so with analog).
You must have a very poor performing system. Not only should you be able to tell what type of cymbal was use but also what brand of microphone was used to record it. I never have a problem doing so and neither do any of the folks I hang with. |
Hi Rgs92 - I do not own an SACD player, so my experience with them is limited - a couple of friends of mine have one, but they live pretty far away and like me, mostly listen to vinyl anyway. Certainly the quality of SACD is higher than redbook, and there are some very good sounding ones out there. But if we are comparing them to the "golden age" of analog recording, they just don't measure up. Also, isn't it true now that there are not very many SACD recordings being made anymore? For me, the cost of them is prohibitive. |
Learsfool -- nice thought-provoking post. Do you think what you said applies to high-end SACD also? I notice that with good SACD, I can just breathe deep and relax and take in the music in a way I can't with redbook. So I think I am hearing what you say is a basic fault with digital, but that problem really seems to vanish with SACD for me. Have you heard a lot of SACD and what do you think or feel? |
03-01-11: Tompoodie
May be it has. I was on the threshold of purchasing an EAR tube or Modwright Sony 5400 player and happened to hear a PS Audio DAC/bridge setup through reference full range speakers. I am a vinyl lover (Rega Planar 9/EAR phono preamp) and was very favorably impressed. I read the website and learned that part of the reason for the excellent sound is error free reading of the disc, which generally doesn't happen even with expensive CD players. Furthermore, it uses a Wolfson DAC, which is the same manufacturer as in the EAR acute CD player I was considering. I have been reluctant to consider computer audio because of a learning curve and the amount of time involved. I now believe that it may be worthwhile. Opinions?
If you don't want to deal with the computer server detail using the bridge, by the PWT with the PWD as I did. Burn hi-rez 24 bit files to DVD and play them back just like a redbook CD. I am very impressed with the rig. I still will grab a vinyl LP if given the choice when playing back a musical selection. |
Never. The technology is not there to accurately transfer the analog sound wave to digital w/o loss of info. Ever listen to cymbal strikes on a good analog rig versus a great digital rig ? All cymbals mostly sound alike on a digital rig...not so with analog. An experienced drummer probably can tell if a cymbal strike was on a Paste or zildjian cymbal. Good luck trying to descern that on digital playback. |
Hello my old friends,
I've been away from the 'gon and this thread for about three years (but not from music) and see that not much has changed in the way of mostly valid arguments defending the one medium from the other.
I have not bothered to read my old diatribes which seem ages ago, but my ears have probably not changed, nor has my gear. Digital is still the Zanden chain or the "Spoiler" USB DAC, analog is WAVAC and a heavily modified Goldmund REF and I still cannot stand big orchestral classical music via digital. There is too much missing on ambience and air, but love small combos, Jazz and voices and here I prefer digital mostly over analog. Not to forget old R2Rs properly dished out by my Studer A810. Here many prerecorded classical tapes will clobber digital any day - to my old ears at least.
Cheers to you all and happy listening,
Detlof |
