Here is a total full-range computer-driven tube system for under $35K that was one of the best of show, voted by JA:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/empirical-audio-vapor-audio
The best sound I have heard at ANY show in 15 years of exhibiting at shows, including Stereophile, RMAF CES and Newport. Killer speakers too. I want some....
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Koplo, you said, 'no analogs at all, even at the loudspeakers' terminals.' Without 256 independently driven small drivers, how can you have digital to a speaker?
If you play the music from the hard drive into memory before playback, how would SSDs differ from HHDs? Also SSDs are too limited in size, especially for DSD native. |
I think digital will swing fine if it will ever get the analog right, plain and simple. IMO, they can at least start with tossing ALL switching-mode power supplies into the garbage where they belong. (I no longer think they really have a place in any component. They just generate way too much noise).
Regards. John |
BTW, check this out, it's a good read: www.audiostream.com/content/draft |
Ivan, I would like to disagree with you on the subject of switching power supplies. Every power supply is "switching" if you think about it. Linear power supply takes energy from the mains in narrow current spikes. Width of these spikes is proportional to load (PWM) while "switching" frequency is 120Hz. Problem is that 120Hz noise is much more difficult to remove than high frequency noise. You most likely think of crude computer switchers that made bad rap for all of them. Modern switching supplies can be so quiet that some designers use them in preamps where efficiency is none of concern. Such switchers have many advantages over linear power supplies. To start with they are line and load regulated. They are also quieter switching at zero voltage/zero current (linear switches at max voltage). Remaining noise is much easier to filter out. They are also much smaller. Transformer switching at 100kHz can be 10x smaller than one switching at 120Hz for the same power not to mention huge capacitance necessary to remove 120Hz ripple and provide any load stability in linear supplies. Because of all that designers used them for class AB amps as well. Newest class AB Rowland Model 625 amp uses SMPTs switching at 1MHz. Why, then, there are still so many linear supplies? Perhaps because switcher is much more complex to design properly while market tends to believe (including you) that it has to be big and heavy. There is also catchy word "linear" that is very misleading. It is big, unregulated, noisy and it is also a switcher - a very crude one. |
SMPS, a great case can be made for them on paper and in theory,the problem for many is what you hear once the listening begins.Many who have compared both(Linear and SMPS) simply find linear power supplies(with good implementation) to sound superior.Those who find SMPS equal or perhaps better, well by all means buy them.People will rely on their ear/brain processing as they should.People will ultimately buy/keep what sounds better. The entire point of home audio is enjoyment of one`s music collection and long term satisfaction.
Regards, |
Kijanki, sorry for my delayed return, but I imagine that what Charles is referring to is reflected in the fact that most equipment modders (and I realize that not every single one of them out there is legit, but many are) usually start by swapping the SMPS for a linear (based on sound, again like what Charles is saying). I had always heard that the digital environment under the hood was possibly rather noisy (self noise), but have recently had my eyes opened in my own rig to just how much that may in fact be true. And additionally that these same digital circuits are also it seems much more sensitive to that noise (whatever frequencies of it may be involved) than analog their counterparts...and again I suspect SMPS's may simply create more noise and induce more jitter in their own right. I would like to find favor with SMPS's, they are smaller, cheaper and cooler running, but continue to find IME that linear usually sounds better, sometimes a lot better. But, I do agree, to each his own. |
I depends on implementation. Good SMPS will be superior to linear power supply. It will be quieter plus line and load regulated. Yes they are smaller and more effective but it is not the reason Jeff Rowland uses them in Capri Preamp.
Linear power supply, as I said before, is also SMPS - a very primitive one (that switches at max voltage) and without regulation, at least in power amps. |
Kijanki, hmmm. Thanks for your comments. Will see if I can keep a more open mind on the topic in the future... |
I'd like to add a "lay techie" comment. I hope that digital does improve to the point that it is consistently better sounding than vinyl. I'm NOT saying that all of my LPs sound better than my "redbook" CDs because they do not. But, IME and to my ears, subject to a few exceptions, my vinyl set up is better sounding than my redbook CDP.
Nevertheless, I am optimistic that the music industry at large will settle on a uniform digital format that will set a new standard of music playback and that will reliably out perform vinyl. Believe me -- I like to load and play for 60 or more minutes without worrying about picking up a tone arm at the end of a 15 to 20 min. playback, or replacing styli after 1500 hour so hours of use.
One other observation. ARC has been aggressively pushing forward on the digital front, now offering a new dedicated REF DAC and REF CD-9 CD player (replaced the REF CD-8). These new offerings are ridiculously expensive ($30K for the REF DAC and $16K for CD-9). Interestingly, these new products provide a half a dozen or more formats from which to choose. I hope ARC guessed it right. ;>')
Cheers. |
Naim gets to the soul of music, IMO. |
As soon as adequate isolation is used from ac to digital and digital to analog. It's a magical transformation. Cheers. |
I tend to agree with Koplo above. A good setup, though always sounding subtly different, compared to a good vinyl setup, sometimes even betters it in subjective listening tests, EXCEPT for big orchestral classical music. Redbook, in what ever way it is processed, just cannot do it here to my ears. Neither can SACD nor can HiRes files.
However with voices, chamber music or jazz combos, in a well set up computer rig, the soul is definitely there.
If even then you cannot hear it, the reason for it lies not in the music, but elsewhere. |
When I had my Oppo modified only after 3 trips maybe 4 trips back to EVS was the upgrade done closer to my spec's but each time I had to cover the shipping and non of the error were my mine. I felt this was unfair to say the least. The player is still working and still supplying a sound like a pig getting killed by a knife thru the back of the neck or something. When turning off the OPPO unless the amplifier is off a very loud startling squeal sounds off thru the right speaker, I complained about this totally uncommon issue but was assured "everyone knows they are supposed to turn off their amplifiers before turning off the blu ray player, right, does everyone know that, I didn't think so. After being quoted an exact dollar amount for the work I requested after each and every time the layer was either sent back or personally delivered Ric asked for more money as though the original agreement was simply a piece of paper to light a joint on because it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. After paying for enough gas to drive to LA and back I decided enough was enough with the extremely shady operator who couldn't get the unit right the first time, the second time it sounded broken, the third time was a nightmare from hell and to this day I'm not sure what if any of the things I paid for were bought and installed. I was forewarned by a couple of people to NEVER do business with this complete idiot but having know this guy for many years I didn't think things could get any stranger but I was so wrong. Now I'm stuck with a piece of junk I've got over $2400 dollars in, so do yourself a favor and pass Ric by and have a person who knows how to treat other people do your upgrade, who needes all those hassles and for what, a bunch of pieces he makes by hand for next to nothing and he'll install a multitude of incorrect parts just so you'll have to send the darn thing back to you so he can figure a way to milk you like a cow if given the chance. Don't go there, you've benn forewarnd by a stupid buyer of his ridiculosly inexpensive upgrade that can or will take up to six months if he can get away with it. Totally unreommended. |
Using even a half assed A to D converter a recorded LP is undistinguishable from the original play. This take time.
Then there's are the LampizatOr DACs. This take money.
The soul is there. |
Last week I bought a Olive 06HD streamer. I also bought the brand new pure silver Audioquest Wild Blue Yonder with the new xlr connectors. I use a Purist Audio powercable with oyaide 004 connectors. This combination is stunning and one of the best analogue sound I ever heard from a digital source. In 2 weeks I will write a review about it! |
With carefully chosen gear, it is possible to achieve! |
.
Bifwynne, the ARC Reference DAC is $16k and the CD9 is $13k.
ARC does not have a $30k DAC.
. |
The soul of the music is in the heart and soul of the listener. Digital has done it for me already. |
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1379507211&openmine&zzBo1972&4&5#Bo1972 |
Jwt, I don't think this is Rick Schultz that makes the magnetic cable. I have Dan Wright's Tube modded Modright Oppo 105 and really enjoy it. He is a class act and wonderful to talk to on the phone. |
That's the other Ric Schultz.
;-) |
"He is a class act and wonderful to talk to on the phone."
Yes he is Jwm, someone you want to do business with. When I purchased the Modded Oppo it also became evident how well his ears work as well as the build quality and engineering put into this modification. It really is a great product, particularly at the price and I would guess well beyond This can't be overstated, speaking of getting it musically right, a realm beyond good sound, capturing the performance in such a natural convincing manner.
|
Tubegroover, I wonder if we could improve the sound further by replacing some of his caps with dueland caps. |
Good question Jwm, I'll leave that duty to you and please report back with the results!:) Seriously, a good question and maybe one to present to Dan for his opinion? |
Dan likes the Dueland caps but they are very expensive. I don't know if they would fit as they are a lot bigger in size. |
Hi
Jwt, I don't understand your two seemingly contradictory posts.
Thanks |
Bobbob, not really the Modright 105 sounds fantastic the way it is. I'm just wondering if the performance can get even better with the Dueland Cast caps. I think these are the best caps out there right now. |
Jwm, I was referring to the two posts by Jwt, not you. |
I can tell you with assurance that the Duelund CAST caps will indeed improve the sound. I have upgraded several front end dacs and CD players with these caps with huge, not small, gains each time. The improvement after burn in will not be slight. You won't strain to hear the difference as it will be obvious without burn in.
Few things are no brainer a, but this is one :-) |
Grannyring is right, he recommended I try them in my Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC(the output capacitors). The sound went from already very good to genuinely superb! I 've no desire to replace it with anything else. I can't imagine any audio component not improving substantially with the addition of the Duelund CAST capacitor. |
Charles1dad, while I have not done a comparison of the Duelunds with the Urushi and other blocking caps, I do have two friends who have and both report the Urushis are both cheaper and better. I use them in everything where I can get them in. |
Tbg,
One thing that's inevitable in high end audio is there's never unanimous consensus or universal agreement on anything. If someone found a better capacitor than thr Duelund CAST and for less money, more power to them.
All I can do is report my experiences and certainly for me the CAST is a terrific product. I'd recommend them without reservations. If others feel the same way concerning the Urushi that's good.
Charles, |
As soon as we evolve digital brains. |
We are finally getting there; take a listen to the MSB Analog DAC or the Light Harmonic DaVinci; both are really fantastic... hi-rez PCM sounds excellent and I think good DSD even sounds better. |
Stickman451, I think DSD far surpasses HD PCM. I had many of my sacds playable off my music server and thought the DSD far superior to just playing the sacds. All was great, until my 09 Mac Mini stopped working and my new 13 Mac Mini was screwed up by Apple to get it to work with Windows 8. Many third party programs were screwed by Apple in getting the Mac to run on this worthless MS program. Soon I expect that these third party systems will be updated to work with the 13 Mac Mini. I dearly wish I could dump Apple, but the Remote app on the Ipad is great for running what Itunes thinks is its music data, and the Mac Mini still has Firewire output.
All of this said, however, my Nantasis Lenco, Ikeda 407 arm and Ikeda 9TT blows away even the dsd. |
CDs/digital is exhilarating for me these days. Is that a strong enough adjective? Bad digital is fixable and should be made old news by one who cares. The only question is how good can it get from here and what else might still be around that can beat it case by case if/when it matters. Its very good, but still not "perfect". Few things are. |
I'm with you Mapman. Very enjoyable music comes to me even from the early poorly done CD's. It's in the music. Perfect is always coming. |
There are so many great jazz, blues and similar genre recordings originally issued on various forms of vinyl, including 78s, that are gloriously compiled remastered and released on CD these days that sound absolutely glorious. It seems to be the rule these days rather than the exception. Too many I have encountered and now enjoy for the first time to mention. Lots of "soul" in there!!!!!!! |
Well said Mapman, honestly I just don't hear that "blows away digital" that some do with their turntable. I'm fortunate to have heard some wonderful analog and digital front ends in very well set up systems. Both can really sound fantastic but one doesn't outclass the other, at least this hasn't been the case for me. I enjoy both.
Charles, |
I am routinely blown away by both the artistry and sound these days in older recordings from the 50's, 40's and even 30's that I would never have enjoyed prior that now sound exhilarating (often in quite unique ways compared to most "modern" recordings) when I listen to CD remastered versions on my rig these days.
Most of these recordings are from before my time, and only recently have I discovered and enjoyed them. Part of this is probably due to my system being the best it has ever been in terms of being up to the task. The rest has to do with all the unique aspects to experience and explore with older recordings, including how these relate to or influenced things that came later, as well as the unique circumstances of the time that one can read about to help gain appreciation. I've always been somewhat of a history buff as well as music lover and audio kook. |
Mapman and Charles1dad, all I can say is that I have many double record 45 rpm reissued great jazz recordings where I have nice remastered cd versions. There is just no comparison in the attack, involvement in the recording, or just realism.
If you are happy with what you hear, and so am I, all is well. I do think that dsd and certainly double dsd will get digital so close that the convenience of hard drive and computer music servers and their convenience will overcome any shortfall of digital. |
Tbg,
If we're happy all is well, I agree wholeheartedly. I listen to numerous analog fronted systems and really enjoy them. I don't hear the wide gap between those and first rate digital as you do, that's all. I certainly don't question your perception, I appreciate the subtle differences that exist. Night and day contrast ? No.
Charles, |
I personally agree with what Detlof states above concerning digital vs. vinyl. To MY ears it is in the presentation of large scale orchestral music that digital just misses the mark, it is not as convincing as vinyl. Just listen to the violins on a great vinyl recording and then compare to a great digital recording of the same piece and tell me there is no difference. It is just too obvious to me as good as digital is now it still isn't as natural IMHO. There is just an inherent sweetness (resolution) that escapes digital, it just isn't there yet but I hold hope for the future! |
I don't listen to much large scale orchestral music so I have no opinion in that regard. For the acoustic jazz and big band I listen to and know well I find the formats very competitive and enjoyable with a 'good' set up. I've heard both formats sound poor also. |
Agreed Charles! I too find acoustic jazz and big band satisfactory in the digital format and it would be, to me, splitting hairs concerning the preference of one over the other. I just don't understand why this doesn't carry over as convincingly with large scale orchestral. Overall though, at its very best I would say I would prefer a good vinyl recording over the same digital all thing being equal less the inconvenience of dealing with vinyl, it is just a bit more relaxed and natural to my ears. But having said that I wouldn't agree that digital music playback doesn't get to the soul, it sure can. |
No doubt large scale orchestral works is an area that when you look at the state of the overall big picture, vinyl probably still rules. part is sound quality and part is all those fantastic classical recordings available at the Goodwill store for a pittance compared to what it would cost anywhere on CD.
Has nothing to do with getting the soul though. |
Hi Tubegroover ,
I'll give analog a "subtle"(but noticeable) edge in the realm of relaxation and sense of organic flow and ease. This advantage only applies to the very top set ups, as some analog front ends don't possess this same ability. I've heard some select digital front ends (certainly not all) that are exceptionally natural, realistic and with much emotion conveyed (better than some turntable sources with etched, bright and edgy cartridges). Massed string sections I'll defer to your experience.
Charles, |
Kapa started an OP and asked for comments about this article. http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
The author says "[t]he BAS test I linked earlier mentions as an aside that the SACD version of a recording can sound substantially better than the CD release. **It's not because of increased sample rate or depth but because the SACD used a higher-quality master.** When bounced to a CD-R, the SACD version still sounds as good as the original SACD and better than the CD release **because the original audio used to make the SACD was better. Good production and mastering obviously contribute to the final quality of the music.**" (**Emphasis added**)
What else is there to say????? |
Bifwynne, that is not always the case. I have redbook cd's that sound better than the same SACD's I have and I have SACD's that sound better than the redbook. It depends on who did the remastering as they all have an idea of what final sound they want. |
