Pauly ... read my earlier posts, therein lies the information.
Dvdgreco was asking for TT recs under $600. It all started well enough, then descended into a showoff-fest with arms cartridges and tables costing kilobucks. How is that helpful ?
I stand by my P3 suggestion. A perfectly reasonable deck. Add a denon dl-110, or a Goldring 1042 and be happy. If the desire to upgrade bites a P3 is also extremely easy to sell. |
Ignorance is still running rampant...and LOL!!! |
Psychic. I appreciate a person who sees the funny side of things. I do too
(most of the time) .
You keep on harping about my ignorance, but from my side the ignorance seems to be yours.
'Greco, take this from the underground: the Creature on Steroids will be at the $5K performance level when fully modded'.
Do you actually know what a $5000 TT sounds like at all? Which $5000 tables have you listened to? Can you provide a list? Who else have listened to your table and the yet unknown $5000 table to verify your objective (?) opinion?
'The modded Groovemaster has the midrange of a $1500 MC cartridge:'
Really? Which $1500 carts are you comparing it to? A Koetsu perhaps? Maybe a Shelter or Zyx? Anything? Have you ever spent time and listened to a $1500 cart? Do you even know what they sound like? Can anybody verify your groovemaster claim?
'A few months ago I got the strobe disabler for my 1200. No other TT has so many options'
Really? Strobe disabler? WTF is that supposed to do? Fix some mistake on the original design perhaps? On a Rega you can change platters, install VTA adjusters, rewire the arm and replace the end stub. You can add a strobe disabler?
For the record, I do not really care what technology is employed on a TT. If a $5000 idler wheel or direct drive comes out that beat the Galabiers, VPIs and Teres tables Ill buy it in flash. Fact is there are none on the market.
Regards
Paul |
"Fact is there are none on the market"
The Garrard 301, 401 and 501 sell for pretty big money when fully restored, and I have known people dump top spec. LP12s to get a garrard. The LP12 is not the best incarnation of belt drive, but it's good enough that if it is replaced with a Garrard there must be something to these idler-drive decks.
I must admit that my basic knowledge of physics would suggest that a Teres type approach (which is really brute force and ignorance) using a massive platter, a slender, non-elastic belt and a minimal motor, would appear to be optimum, but there are some who prefer the music from the Garrard. I personally have heard neither, but I would not discount either.
I have never heard a "hifi" setup Technics SL1200, so I would never write that off either. Again, I know of people who have dumped Rega P3s for an SL1200, and I know of people who have dumped SL1200s for Rega P3s, so it strikes me that neither would be obviously a better choice without first hearing it. |
dvdgreco if you can stretch the budget a little a Michell tecnodec or Nottingham horizon will better the P3 for not much more money. |
There sure is a lot of talk of "facts" on this thread. So here's some actual facts, get ready to shell out your money Pauly, I expect it to be in a flash:
"In defense of my poor maligned TNT, Jean, even you admitted it is quite a musical turntable, more so since I replaced its Dyna 10X5 with a second Denon DL-103. But it WAS rather massacred by the Lenco, I'll be the first to admit."
"i bought an LP12 with valhalla and ittok initially and was quite pleased for a while. for me (and my ten thumbs), set-up issues plagued that particular table. i heard a basic teres setup and promptly sold the linn as the sound quality bested the linn by an embarassingly large margin. i then had a teres 245 with moerch dp-6 and allaerts mc-1b. unfortunately, my teres had problems of it's own (recurrent motor controller faults, cracked base that had to be replaced, etc. etc.). i now use a modified lenco L-75 with moerch dp-6 arm and denon DL-160 cartridge and have achieved what is easily the best sound (and reliability) to date.
flyingred's concluding remark pretty well sums it up. whatever table/arm/cart combination you eventually decide upon, enjoy the music!"
"I have had a fantastic evening's listening. The Lenco is everything claimed here and more. As forecast by Jean, there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic), fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning. I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them - I'm not sure yet whether it's better than a Galibier I heard a few weeks ago but it's pretty close. I'll be better able to comment when I put the DL-103 on the FR64. There's no doubt in my mind that the Lenco is preferable to the Teres 265 and 360, Nottinham Spacedeck and Hyperspace, SME 10, Kuzma Stabi and of course my old Linn."
The traditional defense against these types of actual verifications of the claims presented here is that a) there was something wrong with the set-up; and b) the system was not of sufficient quality. The gist of all defenses against actual verification so far is that since it contradicts Dogma/belief, then something HAD to be wrong somewhere, this could NOT be accurate, therefore it could not be, period. Or you could accept them as evidence, put your money where your mouth is, and join in the Great Lenco Experiment, and risk having some fun in the process. But please, hold back on all the "facts", as you yourself wrote, "Have you ever spent time and listened to a $1500 cart? Do you even know what they sound like?" Substitute "Garrard" or "Lenco" for "$1500 cart". |
Johnnantais. I give you 11 out of 10 for trying, but you are crossing the line into the ridiculous.
'So here's some actual facts'
A few opinions posted on the BB are hardly facts. And no, simply because you really like these opinions dont make them facts either.
'there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic)'
Really? I guess I must have an odd Koetsu as my Rosewood pounds at the bass.
'fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning'
I have heard people say that about iPods. Can we get a respected audio journalist/critique to say that about a Lenco? Maybe, but I have yet to see that.
'I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them'
Really? In home or a 10-15 minute listen at an audio show or store? Did you listen to material you are familiar with or not? Are you familiar with neutral and accurate sound, or used to a particular coloration produced by your own equipment? Was the associated equipment the same. What about the arm and carts used? Room acoustics?
Added note having endured a (painful) karaoke evening a few weeks ago, it was obvious that some individuals actually prefer a colored (read distorted, boomy and smeared) sound. Those individuals are totally unimpressed by an accurate and natural representation of music.
No, I have not listened to a Lenco or Garrard. I have however spend many hours listening to a well restored and well setup TD124. The sound was very colored and there was a very noticeable lack of low level detail. Not nice ...
Regards
Paul |
Sean, your point is what?
You quote my statement of "Fact is there are none on the market" and go on to talk about restoring tables that have been OFF the market for 30 odd years?
Surely you do not think that Garrards are still being sold no? |
Turntable.. Schmurntable...
A turntable only needs to do 3 things to be Perfect:
1. Turn at the prescribed speed (e.g. 33rpm) with minimal fluctuation.
2. Impart no vibration/resonance of it's own to the cartridge/arm.
3. Be shielded or designed well enough that the cartridge/armwire is not adversely affected by any magnetic or electrical field from the TT.
That is ALL a turntable can possibly do - PERIOD! There is no Black Magic about spinnin' a freakin' platter at a steady speed. The basic technology to accomplish this was in place somewhere between the invention of the wheel and the early 20th century.
Most of the TT's mentioned here meet those 3 criteria reasonably well.
Everything else being argued about is actually a function of the cartridge, the tonearm, the cartridge/tonearm matching, the quality of the arm wire/output jacks.
So my advice to the original poster, at $600 - buy whichever of these looks the coolest to you (or your wife), won't break the bank, and won't be too much of pain to keep running properly. I've had 15 or 20 of these types of turntables to play with, and I can say without doubt (assuming the quality of TT's already mentioned here) the choice of cartridge is by far the more important factor. And unfortunately that does get into a much more personal, subjective preference. |
Turntable schmurntable
rubbish
Absolute rubbush. The deck is the most critical part of the front end.
Newton taught us that for every action there is a an equal (in force) but opposite (in direction) reaction. Your needle pressing on the groove makes the groove press back on the needle. The platter construction and the efficiency of the coupling between the LP and platter has a dramatic effect on sound as that influences how the LP presses back on the cart.
Try running with a clamp, anvil and/or periphery ring clamp as apposed to the LP not clamped at all. Huge difference.
A hollow cast iron platter produces a sound very different from one machined from solid aluminum. An acrylic platter sound different from an aluminum or one machined from PVC. These will all sound different from a laminate.
A TT needs to resist airborne vibrations. A wooden box plinth is not to good at that they pickup these vibrations and transmit them to the platter and tonearm. Best tables have plinths and arm boards made of acoustically dead (i.e. dense) material.
A TT needs to resist vibrations from the object it is placed upon. Put a TT on a resonant table as apposed to an acoustically dead stand and hear the difference. Some will be almost immune while other will have a noticeable degrading of sonics.
Friction of the bearing platter has a huge effect on sound. People dont pay thousands for air-bearing because theyre 'cool'.
The coupling between plinth and arm board is a factor. The arm board/arm pod should not move in relation to the platter.
I dont believe I have even scratched the surface. With a crummy deck even the best arm and cart will sound like shyte. |
>>the choice of cartridge is by far the more important factor.<<
Nope that's flat out incorrect. A good tonearm with an average cartridge will smoke an average tonearm with a good cartridge. Check it out. |
Pauly,
"Surely you do not think that Garrards are still being sold no?"
http://www.garrard501.com/
I recommend that you not be Mr smarty-pants when you are talking about something with which you have absolutely no personal experience. |
I recommend that you not be Mr smarty-pants when you are talking about something with which you have absolutely no personal experience. The same goes for direct drives--and my experience regarding high end decks, tonearms and cartridges. *** |
Sean, I was unaware Garrards were still available new. I was wrong, you were right.
Are they better than Teres, VPI, Galabier and Progressive though? I doubt that and I doubt you will disagree on that either. In fact, Ill eat my record collection if they are better you can be a witness.
I may get one for my 78s though.
Regards
Paul |
Pauly, "It is easier to write upon the water, than to teach a fool anything" (Khalil Gibran), a fool being someone who refuses to learn what he does not want to learn, meaning he will never learn anything of value and so remain a fool. The quotes for the most part were from the owners of said 'tables, or have you a hard time reading? Owners, it goes without saying, are far more familiar with the performance/sound of their turntables than reviewers who spend a short period with them. And what makes you think that reviewers, who MUST always tout Progress (or there would be no reason to buy new things) and thus guarantee enough advertising to ensure survival of the magazine (a conflict of interest of ever there was one), are a better source than the owners of the 'tables who have sunk their cash and egos into them? In fact, it is likelier that these folk would find for their chosen 'tables than for the cheap'n cheerful Lencos, and so admit their error, human nature being what it is (you are a prime example of such personal weaknesses). There is a very large difference between the fellow who listened to various 'tables and you: he was willing to learn, and did hear a Lenco. I have in fact heard the Lenco against a large variety of high-end 'tables (I have even had the temerity to buy and rebuild a Technics SP10 MKII to give DDs the best chance I could so I could decide for myself based on actual experience, rather than rely on hearsay), having owned a few highly-regarded ones myself over the years. This is true as well of those I quoted and many more I did not. Your arguments fit into my classification - "The gist of all defenses against actual verification so far is that since it contradicts Dogma/belief, then something HAD to be wrong somewhere, this could NOT be accurate, therefore it could not be, period" - thanks for bearing me out on this and providing such a brilliant example. If you decide you want to actually learn something new and throw the closed doors of your mind open (many have done, rethinking their stand), then contact me, I'll be happy to help you find and hear either a properly set-up Lenco or a Garrard.
And for the record, here's an excerpt from a 6moons article by Jeff Day. For context, in comparing a grease-bearing Garrard 301 (that Sugano who designed your beloved Koetsus had the good sense to use both for listening and in the design of the Koetsus) I rebuilt to a Lenco with identical tonearms and cartridges (yes, I actually took the extreme action of actually listening to a Garrard 301, and forming an opinion from actual experience!), I could hear no differences: "The Garrard fills the room with a big, billowing sense of space that extends well outside the location of the speakers, with a deep soundstage that retains naturally sized images that are infused with the breath of life-like humanness. One of the things I've noticed -- and Terry Cain commented on it too -- is that the Garrard has a definite sense of drive & PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) that brings the music to life. Paul Chamber's bass playing on "Alone Together" has a sense of tautness, propulsion & rhythmic nuance that completely escapes my very fine $8000 Meridian 508.20/Audio Logic 2400 transport/DAC combination. A number of Garrardissimos I have talked to contribute this to the idler wheel design. I don't know if it's the idler wheel or not but the Garrard 301 has the PRaT thing down pat in the best of the English tradition. It's easy to understand why such a great mystique has grown up around the Garrard 301 after spending some time with it. It really is an incredible table. There is rich musicality to the music produced by the Garrard 301. It conveys the mood of the music in fine fashion and with a great sense of correct tonality. Simply put, the Garrard 301 is a tone monster! It's also a rhythm king. You'll always understand the intricacies of the rhythm with this vintage setup. Think of the boring beat of that one-note metronomic bass line that you hear in many recordings with most tables. It's there but it's not much of an inspiration. The Garrard 301 takes that seemingly one-note bass line and infuses into it the musicians' subtle (or not so) stylings in tempo, dynamics, phrasing and harmonic structure to give it feeling. And guess what? The Garrard doesn't just do that with bass, it does it with all the instruments and voices that make up the musical whole to produce a very cohesive & life-like musical experience that oozes emotions. The Garrard also gives a sense of natural burnished warmth and solidity to images. The Garrard conveys the texture of all the components of the music and makes sense of the musical whole. It's also detailed in a very natural-sounding and realistic way. The vintage setup is easy on the ear and has no unnatural edge or glare. On "September Son", Kenny Burrell's guitar intro opens the song and provides the backdrop for when Chet comes in with his trumpet. The two continue to lazily style through the rest of the number. With the Garrard, you get a real feel for the music. You don't just hear the music and admire the sound, you get a glimpse into the emotional makeup of the musicians contributing to it. You understand the music in a way that few other source components can match."
But 6moons is probably not to be counted as evidence by you either, which you will also find some pretext to dismiss. This reminds me of the thread I started a while back, "The High End and Glubglub". This is based on a philosophical discussion on logic: "What he (the skeptic) wants it is logically impossible to supply. But doesn't the logical impossibility of the skeptic's demand defeat his cause? If he raises a logically impossible demand, can we be expected to fulfill it? He says we have no evidence, but whatever we adduce he refuses to count as evidence. At least we know what we would count as evidence, and we show him what it is. But he only shakes his head and says it isn't evidence. But then surely he is using the word "evidence" in a very peculiar way (a meaningless way?), so that nothing whatever would count as a case of it...Might he not just as well say, "There is no glubglub?"..." I have many occasions to trot this out as I have crossed many like you out there in getting the world to go back and have a listen to a discredited technology: whatever the evidence, it is not to be counted as evidence if it contradicts a favoured prejudice. As Stanhifi likes to always write, "this is too easy". Prove me wrong, I have nothing to hide and welcome yet another showdown between a rebuilt Lenco and anything you would like to throw at it. As I wrote long ago at the beginning of my Lenco Challenge, "I throw down the gauntlet" (and 4yanx bravely picked it up, made a serious effort to restore one, compared it to his Nottingham Spacedeck/Graham 2.2/Benz, and sold the Nottingham Spacedeck/Graham 2.2/Benz, and with immense integrity reported his findings on Audiogon, and have many others). None have even matched it so far, in a fair comparison, quality tonearm/cartridge against quality tonearm/cartridge. This might actually stimulate your curiosity.
Anyway, Dvdgreco, ignore these idler-wheel discussions as they don't fit your bill anyway, and concentrate instead on the SL1200 or Regas and others in your price-range. |
Stan and Pauly - we are talking about a very specific few sub-$600 table/arm/cartridge combos. In that realm, given the TT choices so far presented, I stand by my previous post 110%.
Of course an SME 309 arm sounds better on a VPI than on a $40 Fisher TT, and a 3" inch thick acrylic platter with a ring clamp sounds better than a 3/32" hollow aluminum platter. And they do ONLY because they obviously perform the 3 functions I enumerated better than a Fisher El Crappo does. But those aren't the choices we're talking about here, nor are we talking about an El Crappo.
We're pretty much considering a P3, a Technics 1200, or a Lenco type. These all have their specific strengths/weaknesses, but they're playing in the same league. So I still say that the cartridge that DVDGreco chooses (and it's synergy with the arm) will impact his enjoyment of the music more than which of these tables he ends up with. |
Johnnantias.
I guess reverting to insults when you cannot produce objective reasons for your views is probably as good as you can do. Throwing insults at me is rather sad as you know nothing about me personally, nothing about my musical requirements, musical tastes, my equipment or experience in audio. Like Physic you do not respond to legitimate questions directly, rather sidestep and counter with insults. In the circles I move in that is considered as somewhat infantile behavior, but I understand it may be totally acceptable in yours so no offence taken on my part
FYI, the advice you gave dvdgreco echo what I gave him before you eccentrics climbed out the woodwork. Rather foolish after calling me the fool no?
I do not reject your so-called 'Lenco challenge' out of ignorance, but due to a number of objective reasons and subjective experiences/observations I have had over many years in the hobby. Saying you are throwing down the gauntlet is not unlike a heroin addict telling me not to knock it till I try it. No, I need some objective reasons before spending money effort and time all you have come up with is hearsay.
In fact you preference of an modified RB300 over a SME IV tells me the table has some serious flaws.
As somebody that builds my own vacuum amps, I also succumb to having a less critical ear for my own creations. So I do not begrudge people that restore antique tables. Unlike you, I can at least come up with a couple of objective reasons why the amps I built are more suitable for audio than most commercial transistor amps.
Regards
Paul |
Obviously these guys don't play salsa music... |
|
Oh I have had a laugh reading all this. Poor bloke asks for advice on a mid price TT and it descends into a farce. I have three cheap to mid price turntables set up. Two excel at particular types of music and one is superb at all types of music.
1 Goldring GR2 (read Rega P3 here) came with a Rega RB250 arm. God it was awful. The table is cheap and nasty but you know what with the Goldring 1012X it came fitted with it sounds brillant on rock music. I was so impressed that I sent the arm away to Origin Live for a full set of upgrades (cost about $700) but worh it, also fitted the Heed Audio speed box. That baby really sings.
2 An Ebay special, a 30 year old Ariston RD11s with SME3 with the fluid damp trough and an integrated SME Ortofon 30H. Eningeering is king and this has it in spades. It will outlive me and be passed onto my children. It weighs a ton but as the basis for the later Linn LP12 it has shown its worth. Takes ages to get up to speed but when there it is the among the best TTs for classical music there is.
3 Sorry guys but the finest turntable that will play anything you throw at it with a silky smooth background, oodles of detail, dynamics and absolute clarity is my Technics SL1200 Mk2 with full KAB mods including screw down clamp, strobe disabler, external power supply etc etc and the superb KAB groovemaster. Sublime.
I have the Ariston and Goldring in my study and the Technics in the lounge. To really appreciate the differences between the three, I play them them through Graham Slee Amp2 SE phono stage (with uprated power supplies) I have three of them and two Graham Slee Solo headphone amplifiers driving Senheiser HD600s with Russ Andrews Kimber cable. It really doesn't matter what electronics you use though, the differences will shine through. Remember Garbage in Garbage out.
So the advice is buy the Rega if you listen to mainly rock music and spend some money on upgrading the arm or if you listen to all types of music buy the Technics and follow KABs upgrade path. I you are willing to take a chance, look at used decks from yesteryear but be careful as spares are few and far between. |
I agree with the last fellow's assessment of the response provided to date. Really going off the mark.
I would, however, bet my ears and wallet on the Sota Sapphire. I have owned several Sota's (still own a Star Sapphire and absolutely love it), classic Micro Seiki, MusicHall MMF7, and one or two others. SOTA!!! Try reaching just a little further and pick up a good used Sota Star Sapphire (vacuum). I can't imagine you'd be disappointed. If it needs a tweek or a part Donna at Sota is wonderful to work with. |
OK. The Rega P3 will fit my needs, but what about a matching (quality and cost-effective) MM cartridge to mate with the TT? |
I use a Goldring 1042 with my rega. It's quite fiddly to align due to the stylus profile, but sounds very good, and is an excellent match with the table. I think there's a dealer selling them at a special price on audiogon if you search for goldring, or go to www.mantra-audio.co.uk and buy direct from the UK ... it's much cheaper than buying from a US dealer.
I have also used Rega Super Bias, which is quite pleasant, but not as good as the Goldring.
Many in the UK seem to like the Denon DL110 and DL160 high output moving coil cartridges, though I've not heard one myself. These MC cartridges work into most MM input stages. They're inexpensive and can be found at needle doctor. |
