What's the weak link in my system?
Currently Configured:
Pro-ject Genie 1.3 Turntable w/ Sumiko Pearl Cartridge
Bellari VP 130 Phono Pre w/ Tung-Sol Tube & Replaced Power Supply
Marantz CD 6006 CD Player
Parasound P3 Stereo Preamp
Parasound A23 Power Amp
PSB T6 Platinum Speakers
Bluesound Node
AKG K702 Headphones
Audioquest Daimondback Interconnects
Audioquest Rocket 33 Speaker Wire
Also Have:
NAD C235BEE Integrated AMP
Monitor Silver RS6 Speakers
Marantz SA8260 SACD Player (Used to sound great but doesn't work consistently - not sure if worth having repaired)
Musical Fidelity V Can Headphone Amp
So.... I think I have put together the best possible system configuration using what I have. What would be the weakest link / first to upgrade? Turntable? Phono Pre? Pre-Amp? Suggestions of products to upgrade to without breaking the bank? I've accumulated a bunch of stuff but I'm really a novice so any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Agree with Handyman. The front end is probably your weakest link - both analog and digital. I owned the Bellari and found it lifeless. Did not keep it. Get a good solid state phono preamp, like a Dynavector DV-75, used. I prefer tubes, but good tube phono preamps are expensive. For digital get the best dac you can afford. Everything else should be ok. |
Dave, Your argument is valid if more expensive sources made a difference, but not if they don’t. I am not quite sure where the minimum is exactly, and it may be wise to pay a bit extra to be on the safe side, but sonically perfect sources do not have to cost an arm and a leg anymore. See here for the specs of my usb DAC: https://www.jdslabs.com/products/39/odac-objectivedac/ Those are well beyond the hearing acuity of any human. That is the great benefit of technical progress. Perfection can be defined in relation to that human hearing acuity. There is no possible audible advance beyond that perfection, but such perfection is getting cheaper, and we are there. I admit to a kind of naughty pleasure in referring to the ultracheap Chromecast Audio, but it is indeed the best example of the progress we made, even if it does not measure perfectly (but almost). The good news is that at least for this part of the chain perfect audio is now within reach of all social classes, and not just to those who want to brag about their wealth. So to continue the bragging, they have to invent their alternative facts. I for one will not waste money on the advice of some spoonbenders, against the advice of the designer of my speakers, and against the advice of the designer of the original cd format. Did you actually read the Chromecast Audio test, or any of the other tests on that site? Is anything wrong with the test? As for the plasma screen, my Quad speakers are dipoles so do not radiate sound to their sides. How else can you watch opera or ballet (or don’t you?). My experiences with live acoustic music do matter (and yes, I did sit in e.g. the Mariinski in St Petersburg) because they provide a yardstick. There is one thing I forgot to mention about my system, and that is the house itself. It is a detached home in a quiet leafy suburb, and that is important, because detail resolution is obviously greatly impaired by background noise. So when it was designed we set about making sure it was as quiet as possible. Construction is concrete (also for the roof) and brick, and the heating and water piping system were designed to be as quiet as possible (no air heating or air conditioning, which we do not need/use here anyway). The same applies to our modern ultra quiet kitchen appliences. Ventilation openings to the outside are muffled, and the window glazing is specially sound deadening. These are cheap things to do when you build a house, but obviously hard to achieve afterwards. But they make a real sonic difference, comparable to listening in the middle of the night. Money much better spent than on cables or other quack stuff. |
I’m an audiophoole on a tight budget. After experimenting with speaker placement and carpet/furniture alternatives, here’s how I’d approach it; just my 2 cents. I’d focus on vinyl first. A phono pre upgrade would not have to be very expensive. A Schiit Mani or Emotiva XPS-1. The XPS-1 is an especially good bargain and will let you play with cartridge loading. Experiment with different platter mat materials. Cork/rubber, acrylic, none, Teac Washi. Experiment with VTA. This is important: Phono cables should be designed to be phono cables! Any old RCA IC will not do. Usually 22-24 awg silver coated copper with the lowest capacitance possible. They don’t have to cost an arm and a leg. https://store.wireworldcable.com/collections/interconnects/products/luna-7-audio-interconnect-cable?... All this is intended to help you not give up on your TT unless absolutely necessary, because as pointed out, that will run into real money. Try a cartridge upgrade as a last resort; but before you spend that kind of dough, make sure it is also a good match for your dream TT/arm. None of the above would be wasted if you have to bite the bullet and get a new table. Try to change one thing at a time. The experience may lead you to a common solution for CDs. I wish you well! Jim |
Current consensus among most audio gurus is that the most important part of a system is the first 6 feet out from the wall to eliminate noise coming from your power provider. Some deliver as much as 3% THD. I get on average 1,5% from APS here in Phoenix. After cleaning it up I enjoy less than 0.1%. Next, I’d consider getting the PS Audio DirectStream DAC, a Mac Mini to serve as your dedicated music streamer that will connect via USB to your DAC. Rip your CD’s to your Mac and LOSE CD player. At the same time, download the Pure Music player which overrides iTunes but attaches to iTunes and takes over as your music player. I have a 7.5K Krell CD Player and never listen to it as a bit perfect copy of a CD streamed from my Mac sounds BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL CD! Make sure you get a Mac with a flash hard drive so there is no spinning /noise and use a good external HD to serve as your storage device for all of your music. This confog will, 100%, sou d better than any vinyl and de,overs a virtual transcendent analog type experience since your files are converted to DSD in your DAC before output via analog to your preamp or receiver. |
@willemj - I can see that you are definitely a person who is completely reliant on specs and you seem to have the traditional old school opinion that cables do not matter at all. That is perfectly fine. You are perfectly okay to disagree on certain points, but please do not drop down to name calling or insulting people because you do not agree with their points of view. This creates a situation where there is no objective discussion and the thread degrades into a flame war. Please always try to approach things with an open mind. The traditional engineering approach that states "since a fact is written down as a fact, it is therefore always a fact" is not always correct. We are always discovering new things. Also, the engineer who believes that something is fact may not be able to hear the differences that certain audiophiles can hear. I took a quick look at your ODAC. I would not say the specs are that great (for a DAC chip). The (now aging) ESS 9018 beats the specs of the ODAC. The ODAC states lowest THD at 0.0015% and DR of >112db. The ESS 9018 THD is 0.0001% (-120db) and DR of 129/135 db. However, this does not necessary mean that the ESS DAC will sound and be superior over your ODAC. There is a lot of missing stuff here such as I/V and LPF audio stages, which will work on further shaping the waveform that is just flat DC voltage injections from the DAC chip. We haven’t even talked about power supply (such as high capacitance, linear power supply filter, cable material, etc.). The ODAC is powered from USB cable, which is a bottleneck and, in most cases, will have a switching power supply from the transport (definitely switching if it is from a common computer). The ODAC is also designed by NwAvGuy. I’m sure the design is fine, but I have read NwAvGuy’s posting on op amps and I don’t necessarily agree with all his points, especially his statement on the "MYTH" most op amps sound different. I have tested many different op amps in a highly ideal analog circuit. This means a high capacitance (2 x 10,000uf) linear power supply with R-Core transformer, fully discrete Class-A based voltage regulators, very high end electrolytic capacitors with minimal electrical resonance, OCC solid-core chassis wire for power cable, film-on-foil feedback capacitors, etc. etc. In all cases, I can definitely hear differences between op amps. And the specs on an op amp do not necessarily mean they will sound good. You can disagree here if you wish. However, for those of us who can sit down and hear the differences, this is a fact for us that there are differences in different elements. |
@jdm11 - there are a lot of different opinions and suggestions posted here. I do agree with several opinions that your source is very important. One thing I have found is that if the sound quality or sonic signature of the waveform is not there from the beginning, there is nothing in the middle that will "bring back" that sound quality or refinement. A $10,000 preamp with a $200 CD player may sound very good, but it is not going to magically "fix" the poor sound quality from the CD player. That being said, you can spend more and more on a source that you get to a point where you are not able to hear the "differences" between two high priced sources. One thing that could happen here is that your middle layers (cables / preamp) do not have enough resolution to allow you to hear the differences between sources. I have taken a look at your equipment list. Nothing really jumps out at me as a "weak link" because everything on the list is pretty equivalent. I have absolutely no experience with turntables, so I could not comment on that. Your Marantz CD 6006 is a fine source. Marantz has excellent focus on power supply and also its discrete analog stages. The Marantz equipment is voiced to be on the warm side, so if you like that sonic signature, it's great to stay with the Marantz. The Parasound P3 looks to be a fine preamp design with good power supply. As I said, I do not have experience with turntables, so the previous comments that the turntable / phono preamp should be upgrade might be correct. That being said, I have noticed your PSB T6 speakers are 4 ohm. Usually, speakers have a drop in their impedance curve where the impedance can reach as low as 2-3 ohms in the bass/midbass area. This speaker is mostly higher than 4 ohm, but there is a drop to 3 ohm between the 250Hz and 700Hz region: https://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-image-t6-loudspeaker-measurements Based on this, I would say that your Parasound A23 amp -might- be somewhat of a weak link here. If I had your system, I might look at upgrading to the larger Parasound A21 amp. It has a power supply twice as large. This may handle that low impedance area in the low midrange better than the A23. Also, the A21 will just be a much more refined sound than the A23. |
I noticed nobody commented on the Marantz SA8260 SACD player. It looks to have a superior analog section when compared to your CD 6006. You could look into having it repaired and possible get back a better source. It depends on your threshold. Would you spend $200? $300? more? Also, it looks to be about 10 years old, so the mechanical of the transport has a higher risk of failure. If the disc transport itself is a problem, it could be challenging for a technician to find a replacement. |
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It's funny you say that inna you're right on the money; I got called away on an emergency short notice business trip a couple days ago and just got back tonight to find all this informaion. I''m so glad to see the discussion and thankful for the interest and all of these perspectives. I'm going to need some time to sort through it all! |
@jdm11 - I totally understand. I had to leave for several hours, but before I left I just saw how you described what your "problems" were and what you wanted:
If these are your problems, there are several things I can think of that could help you move towards your goal: - power cords. If you are still using the stock power cords for your equipment (cd, preamp, amplifier), then looking at an upgraded power cord can significantly improve things. I have recently found that the Audioquest power cords which use solid-core conductors are an excellent solution. I listened to the Audioquest NRG-4 model before I re-terminated the ends with Furutech rhodium connectors. The stock NRG-4 cable sounds very nice. It has a very solid sound with warmth and power. The solid-core conductors ensure that music impacts hit with authority and power. The gold-plated copper connectors give a nice warm sound. I would avoid any of the power cords with silver-plated connectors in your situation. I have gone through testing with many different power cord material and geometries. Solid-core conductors win every time. Stranded wire power cords can sound good, but they just don't have the same "solid" audio character and they sound very "lo-fi" and "digital". I have tested this with a very high end Furutech OCC copper power cord. They just don't work as well as solid-core conductors. Stock power cords usually use very small 18awg stranded conductors and may not even be copper. The stock cord connectors are also poor quality. These stock power cords can introduce a bright/harsh character to the sound. - fuse upgrade. This is only a slight suggestion as fuses are definitely a controversial subject. I have also found that stock fuses will sound bright/harsh. Although, the right choice of fuse can be difficult to determine. I usually recommend Isoclean as being a very nice warm sounding fuse. This may end up being to warm for you as it can roll-off the high frequencies in some scenarios. You can try the Furutech/PADIS fuses, but expect a 200+ hour burn-in and these fuses can be very fast and revealing to the point where the system becomes too thin/lean/cold. There are other fuse choices. I would avoid the silver Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in your situation because you feel you have too much harshness/thin character. - Interconnects. If you want, you can start backing off from the silver-plated elements. Your Audioquest Diamondback interconnects have excellent conductors, but they do have the silver-plated connectors. These will conduct electricity a lot faster than other elements and will contribute to the very bright/thin character. If you want to look into this, I would say to get the best Audioquest interconnects you can that still use gold-plated connectors. The Perfect Surface Copper and Foamed Polyethylene Insulation are excellent items in Audioquest cables. - switching power supplies. All of your listed equipment uses linear power supplies, but you don’t describe power distribution. Are you using a single power strip or going to different outlets? If you have any device with a switching power supply connected to the same power strip or outlet, this can cause your audio to have a bright/harsh digital solid-state character. These can be things such as bluray players, satellite receivers, or anything else that has a switching power supply or wall-wart. |
I've need been in your position before. If your like me you probably think to your self, it sounds good but I'm not feeling the magic. I don't think changing one component is going to make the difference your looking for. What you need to do is start swapping out your gear piece by piece with gear that is a level or two above what you have. I get it, when you don't have the cash it's difficult. But if you look for deals and swap it it slowly piece by piece, it's do-able. For example I'd lose the amp and preamp and get a Classe, Belle's 150a ref, McCormack, krell, exposure jolida or bryston for your amp or pre. I actually just bought a jolida tube pre for 400 and I love it. Next unload the marantz, I've personally never found a marantz cdp that I thought was more than Mediocre. Instead if you want to stay with traditional cdp I'd get a rega appollo, exposure, naim or if you can afford it an older wadia. NAD had a pretty decent little cdp a few years ago, I think it was the 542 or perhaps there silver line. The best sounding and cheapest digital source I found was musical Fidelity v90 USB dac on a computer using Jriver software. It was wonderfully dynamic and detailed. Your turn table could be switched for a higher grade rega, but I'm not really up to speed in LP so others would give better advice on your LP player. Your cables I would change to at minimum audioquest Columbia or similar grade Tara labs or harmonic tech, for your interconnects. and For speaker cables I'd look at Dh labs for a cost effective good cable. As far as your Speakers go, I'm not familiar with those, but you may get the magic out of them after you change your electronics. If not then you need to audition a few until your zero in on what you like in a speaker. If it were me I'd be looking at a pair of thiels, sonus Faber, Dali, something a long those lines. Let your ears be the true judge of what you like. Obviously your not hearing the magic as of now, so something's gotta change. As far as what order, typically people say start with the front end, but I'd start with what you can get the best deal on first. If there's a sweet Classe or Belle's 150a for a great price, I'd get it, I wouldn't wait around for the source to come up. Buy the stuff as it comes available. In closing I really think you need to break out of the midfi stuff before you'll get the twinkle your looking for. As you start switching stuff out you'll start seeing the improvements. Best of luck |