Robs findings are like mine. I even agree on the sub comments. SVS is a killer home theater sub. Als good with near full range speakers....Not so good with monitors IMO
I have the older SVS Ultra 12/2 which is still there best sub IMO. I was told by Ron at SVS the 13 Ultras were better then the single 12 ultra's, but not the dual 12's. I was waiting for the dual 13 version Ron told me about...but SVS changed direction and are going smaller.....still producing great bass.
The SVE 12/2 Ultra is insane! Great Bargain if you can find one. Take off the bottom stand, flip drivers forward. Buy some JL audio W7 12" Mesh grill covers. An amzing dual sub! |
Can't live with yourself if you don't get in the last word (and version of reality) can you.... |
Jim, I can't get this message to you (keeps coming back even though I'm hitting return with correct address), so I'm posting here and ignoring all of the nonsense above.
Check the UMC-1 forum on the Emo site and contact owners about any bugs still existing. I think you'll be pleased to see what the truth is. Everything else is old news, but take a look for yourself. You're in NJ, which is not too far. No need to take anyone's "word." You can see/hear for yourself.
And no, I have yet to hear ANY processor that is audiophile quality and I've heard units costing in the 6K range. Again, listen for yourself and decide. I own a tube based system along with Merlin speakers for music listening as I never expected a theater system to get it done right. You'd need to move BIG speakers for that to work and I have a dedicated room. You can try me at Thomas35s5@aol.com as well. If you post a query on the MJ Sub elsewhere I can respond and I'm sure others will respond, but a quick answer is this: The MJ and REL subs are about equal, but I find them best for music. A big SVS Ultra sub is great for theater, better even than the Fathom 13", but the Fathom 13" does music better. If you can only go with ONE sub get the Fathom. If you want the best of both worlds get the SVS Ultra and add the MJ or REL for music.
Happy Festivus!
Rob |
So lets get things straight, nobody can HEAR, EXPERIENCE, be informed, or eductated on any given item of audio if they dont own it? I am thankful for information these days that allow light to shine on dirty little secrets in this hobby, it has saved me from potentially being very disapointed with how I spend my money.
Come to think of it I dont own lawn darts but know they are dangerous (or am I assuming too much?).
There are these things called friends, its a fantastic concept, you see it allows you to visit their homes and experience things they own............you should look into it.
I am oerfectly reasonable but you go too far and you dont even see it in yourself, you insult others with claims of "science fiction" and you hang onto this foolish notion that nobody can possibly hear a audio product they dont own, ears actually do work outside of your own home, I promise its true!
We get your a fan, we can see how much of a crush you have on Emo and that you are a true believer, just because others are not doesnt allow you to mock them, accuse them of making things up or being immature, all of which you have done over and over I might add. Sometimes you get the reply and attitude you deserve. When people point out this company and it flaws you simply say "everyone does it" and thats just not true...........that my friend could for certain be a claim of "science fiction".
You can pick and choose your reality any way you wish but the bottom line is they have made serious mis-steps, may still be making them and attempt to produce a midfi product at a midfi price, non of those are insults they are simple facts. I do think on paper what they are doing is a good thing, they just need to do much better at it.
Have a happy holiday, and quit taking this so personal, its not your company or your problem but if I and others can help others avoid a possible problem I am proud to do my part. Ir Emo wants to shut me and others up just make a product that works as it should when it leaves the factory, seems painfully simple to me. |
Chandnliz, I was mistaken in thinking you were a reasonable fellow. You persist in bashing a product you don't own. Furthermore, all of the proof about the UMC-1 CURRENT status is easily read on the Emo forums, but apparently the truth is of no concern to you.
1) Please define the current bugs that make my UMC-1 a problem.
2) Onkyo and Marantz had bugs when released. In fact the Marantz would power down only when unplugged when I first got it! They fixed it quickly though. I owned the Rotel for a short time. It had what we call "Sony sound" and I quickly dumped it.
But I'm glad you pointed out that the Onkyo, Marantz offerings are no better, though they are far more expensive. I'd love to pit the current Anthem against the UMC-1 for overall sound quality.
Please grow up and stop accusing people of "shilling." I don't work for Emotiva. I sell yachts and own a website to keep me knee deep in toys.
Based on the e-mails I've gotten (thanks) I'll let two people who don't own the gear currently take their last shots. It's clear what their motives are, I agree.
Cheers,
(and see my system!)
Rob |
"And if you're seriously looking for something better than a UMC-1, don't be silly by suggesting Marantz, Denon or Onkyo."
Yea, how could D&M holdings ever produce a better sounding and performing pre-pro than Tonewinner. |
There has not been any Science fiction, stop shilling please.
I have nver had one bug in a Anthem, Rotel, Lexicon, Onkyo or Denon unit. Lesser recievers from Sony (2), Onkyo (3), Pioneer (2) have never had an issue either. A firmware update was usually a new feature not a fix for a bug so your comfort and dismissal of flaws is laughable and should simply not happen.
I am thankful Emo isnt in the medical business because this business model could be life and death.
Does Emo pay you by the post for your blind loyalty?
I dont think Outlaw, marantz and current Onkyo offerings are any better or worse and have not suggested either way, the Emo is a sub $1000 unit in cost and IMO performance and is priced correctly........and as a bonus bugs and glitches are free of charge, what a deal! |
No processor I have used....not the Marantz, Onkyo or Outlaw were released bug free.
In fact it's nearly impossible to do so and to suggest otherwise points to a seriously ignorant buying public at this level. There is simply no way to build a processor that will be 100% computable with all sources. Cable and Sat. TV sources are the most problematic as they are a constantly moving target. My own cable provider has upgraded my box 3 times in two years. The 2nd upgrade caused all kinds of issues with my Onkyo. Then there are hundreds of other sources/gear which fail to follow exacting standards.
My Marantz had three times more firmware upgrades than the UMC-1.
We can go back and forth with this all day. The bottom line TODAY is that the UMC-1 is so slayer of giants, but I know it's superior to the Onkyo, Marantz and Denon units. Problems from months ago don't interest me, but having a great sounding stable processor does. If you own most of the other brands you paid MOST of your money for advertising. And if you're seriously looking for something better than a UMC-1, don't be silly by suggesting Marantz, Denon or Onkyo. They are generally harsher sounding units.
The rest of the comments here are old news and science fiction.
Rob |
I am not so sure that your prepared to be objective Rob, you are already saying you sure this new unit (with bugs...that in itself is an amazing lack of confidence) but still you seem certain its going to be some "giant killer"
Sorry but your shilling before its even out, it is apparent your not prepared to be nuetral to me.
As shaneful as Emo's last release was it will be the untimate show of greed and arrogance if the new unit has ANY bugs whatsoever, any serious company will learn from and refuse to repeat a flawed product launch. I look forward to final judgement on exactly what kind of company we are dealing with here. If its a great release then bravo and the shame will fade in time, if it is however yet another arrogant misguided premature and lengthy delayed launch of a subpar product they deserve to fail and we should not slow the demise down with explanatory excuses and slide of hand positive forum marketing, they should die the death they desrve. The have recieved their get out of jail free card, if it happens again we should execute.
Trying to make a product that is good for the money is a great goal but its worthless to only have good intentions, the proof is in performace as promised.........thats not unreasonable to expect, or demand.
Emotiva I am talking to you, you have one more chance to right the ship................are you listening?
Time will tell I suppose.................tick tock! |
"Never believe people who haven't owned the gear and are using it currently."
What if a person who has never owned it (which may speak to their good sense) finds and reports on the experiences of others who have owned it. Rob you don't have to own something to comment on it, think about it.
"If the UMC-1 is equal or a bit better than processors in the 2-3K range"
You are the only person to make this claim...
"I'd really suggest holding of until their new unit is released in the next few months. It will have bugs, but probably less than the UMC-1"
You are that confident in emo that even with two processor debacles that they will do it again ? Why would saying this inspire anybody in a right state of mind to buy the xmc ?
"I'd give it 2-3 months and get that unit which will most probably BE the so called "giant killer."
So why wouldn't emo just wait the three months and release it bug free ? |
Rob is correct. I just switched out the Onkyo for the UMC and there was a pretty big difference. Ive had some really nice gear & some budget stuff, this UMC 1 & XPA 5 combo is the real deal. I already put the XPA 5 through tests over this past year, and I have just loved. Even did a superb job through some Magnepan 1.6's. Thats what twisted my arm to try the UMC 1. Now that the bugs are mostly under control, I pulled the trigger.
Theres no doubt the UMC 1 is MUCH better then the Onkyo for 2 channel, and is at least as good for Theater, if not better. Much more detail, and honestly, at least with my setup, Ive possibly never heard a deeper sounstage. Specially since I'm only using Paradigm S2's right now, and a svs ultra sub. Not exactly top speakers, but they sound as good as Ive heard them using the Emo stuff.
For some comparisons, heres some quick ratings based on sound quality on prepros Ive owned the last 4-5 years:
2 channel Home Theater
Anthem 50 8.9 8.5
Bryston 1.7 8.2 7.5
Onkyo 906 5 6.5
onkyo with xpa 5 6.5 7.5
Rotel 1068 7.5 7.5
Emo UMC 1 7.8 7.5
Krell showcase 8 8 |
Mateored,
The UMC-1 sounds about the same as an Onkyo or Marantz processor in home theater applications.
HOWEVER.....If you plan to rely heavily on automated EQ I believe that the Marantz is strongest in that area. If you're experienced enough to set up the settings on your own I seriously doubt anyone could tell the UMC-1 apart from most processors while watching Avatar.
HOWEVER Part 2.....On music material including 2 channel audio listening the UMC-1 rises above the others. And I'll also include Denon in that pack. The UMC-1 is an unusually musical processor, so much so that I even tried using with my superb Merlin speakers.
HOWEVER Part 3.....If the UMC-1 is equal or a bit better than processors in the 2-3K range, then I'd really suggest holding of until their new unit is released in the next few months. It will have bugs, but probably less than the UMC-1 did when it was released. I'd give it 2-3 months and get that unit which will most probably BE the so called "giant killer."
Never believe people who haven't owned the gear and are using it currently.
Good luck,
Rob |
Chadnliz,
That's a reasonable way to look at it. All I can say is what I experienced after owning Bot the Onkyo & Marantz processors. It's fair to say that THEY are not giant killers. ALL had bugs. NONE had as many bugs as the UMC-1 when it was released. I've never paid more than 2700.00 (give or take a few bucks) for a new processor.
And with all of that said I can honestly report that in my system using Comcast HD cable, PS3, Oppo DVD BD, Apple TV I have zero issues. Even the friend who bought my Onkyo agrees the UMC-1 sounds better.
Does that make it a giant killer? Of course not. None of these processors are ever going to be as good as my Manley or Rogue preamps. But I am a guy who actually OWNS the gear. I toss out what doesn't meet my demands and cry loudly if I think a product is flawed.
So....my statement is this: Anyone looking at the current Onkyo or Marantz processors should try to find someone with the UMC-1 so they can hear it for themselves. If you want to spend 4-7K then I expect you'd be getting a far better pre-amp section in the bargain and that's a different animal.
Thanks for the measured reply.
Rob |
I agree with Chadnliz. As a result of the extreme positions, after two pages of responses, I still don't have a good feel for the two most important questions: (1) is the current product bug-free enough to be worth considering; and (2) how good is the sound? |
Its obvious the truth is somewhere in the middle of some extremes told here, it was and still is a flawed product with a poor release and questionable R&D that allowed this ever delayed product to STILL be released with bugs and flaws. There is no debating that.
But on the other hand some are appearing to go to extremes on slamming this company, that perhaps has learned a valuable lesson and has cleaned up its act.
So lets not suggest it was anything other than a flawed release, lets also not suggest that its some giant killing revolutionary product that slays anything in its path. But lets also find time to champion a company who atleast has attempted to make a reasonable product at a reasonable price and hope they will avoid troublsome issues in the future. |
Just received the UMC 1. I absolutely love it. Features I look for, top rate sound quality & no glitches so far(crossing fingers). As of now I am loving this Emo gear.
XPA 5 & UMC 1 is a super deal! |
I've followed the threads on this unit on a variety of sites - as I was initially very enthusiastic about it's potential - my conclusion was that I wouldn't touch with a 40 ft. pole. The reality is that they use their customers as beta testers & charge them full price for the privilege of owning a malfunctioning buggy unit. Not a company I want to business with. |
>>
James, when I owned the Onkyo there were even more complaints. They were resolved for anyone who waited. MOST UMC-1 owners seem to be quite happy after the updates. So what are you so upset about? Don't buy it, but don't attack something you have no current inexperience with.
"Emotiva was 100% up front about the existing issues and the firmware update a few weeks later did the rest."
Not true and you know it."
Sorry, James. But I had three discussions on the phone with the folks at Emotiva. Read the forums and you'll learn that they actually pick up the phone.
"After owning 6 processors, the UMC-1 is the first where I was able to speak to the engineers directly who were working on the issues and knew the facts."
So you spoke with the engineers in China (Tonewinner?)
Now you're being silly.
"If anyone is local to Carmel NY and would like a demo of this system using the UMC-1 I'd be happy to show it off. My system clobbers most small theaters!"
Wow, that is impressive. Are you going to buy the Emo C.I series which is supposed to clobber skywalker ranch ?
"So here's some "truth" to chew on:"
Truth is in the eye of the beholder. You want to cheerlead for emo, good for you. You do put your money where your mouth is if you own the products. As I said I find the owner to be a huckster in what he says. Throw all the heartburn inducing bbq's you want, doesn't change what you are.>>
Truth is what IS. It's not open to interritation. Does the UMC-1 work well now? That's the original question. I gave an answer. It made you unhappy. Care to explain why? James, the truth is that one of us has a dedicated home theater room that was rebuilt to accommodate a screen over 10 feet wide, 4 subs and HD projection. The system is beautifully run by the UMC-1. I've posted pics of it. So anytime you actually want to make a valid point based on tests of the current UMC-1 vs. other brands, we'll all be waiting.
You seem to want to troll, so I agree....you've beaten the horse and can have the last word. I'm screening The African Queen on Blu-Ray this evening with my lovely wife.
Cheers and good night,
Rob |
|
"James, I have no idea of what you're talking about, but if you rely on forums nonsense that's what you'll end up with."
So other owners who posted their finding on a public forum are nonsensical. Your findings however are totally sensible.
"Emotiva was 100% up front about the existing issues and the firmware update a few weeks later did the rest."
Not true and you know it.
"After owning 6 processors, the UMC-1 is the first where I was able to speak to the engineers directly who were working on the issues and knew the facts."
So you spoke with the engineers in China (Tonewinner?)
"If anyone is local to Carmel NY and would like a demo of this system using the UMC-1 I'd be happy to show it off. My system clobbers most small theaters!"
Wow, that is impressive. Are you going to buy the Emo C.I series which is supposed to clobber skywalker ranch ?
"So here's some "truth" to chew on:"
Truth is in the eye of the beholder. You want to cheerlead for emo, good for you. You do put your money where your mouth is if you own the products. As I said I find the owner to be a huckster in what he says. Throw all the heartburn inducing bbq's you want, doesn't change what you are. |
James, I have no idea of what you're talking about, but if you rely on forums nonsense that's what you'll end up with.
So here's some "truth" to chew on:
1) Before I ordered my UMC-1 I contacted Emotiva and they outlined the problems that still existed for some users. They were effecting mainly Sat. TV customers and some cable users. They even told me which cable boxes they were still working on; it was only a few.
2) None of problems lined up with my cable & Blu-ray sources so I ordered the unit.
3) It came and it had a couple of bugs. Occasionally it would not power down. Twice it made a loud static sound. Skipping chapters on DVD's would leave the audio dropped out for about 1/2 second before it locked.
4) Emotiva was 100% up front about the existing issues and the firmware update a few weeks later did the rest.
5) Discussions with the folks with Emotiva and my e-mailed questions were ALWAYS handled properly and in a friendly manner. This was not the case with Onkyo BTW.
6) The Onkyo unit that I had (costing three times the UMC-1)had bugs of it's own that they never cleared up (including audio drop outs and video signal lock issues) and they took far longer to fix.
7) After owning 6 processors, the UMC-1 is the first where I was able to speak to the engineers directly who were working on the issues and knew the facts.
8) My UMC-1 works flawlessly using Comcast HD cable, PS3 Blu-Ray, Sony TV, Oppo BD and also occasionally for music.
A LOT of products have issues when they're released. I have no idea why you want to call anyone names. If the unit had issues I'd be all over it. I'm sorry. It works well and has only had a few bugs to cure. I have invested large amounts of money into my theater right down to installing a beam and special treatments. If the Onkyo or Marantz were better, I'd own them.
If anyone is local to Carmel NY and would like a demo of this system using the UMC-1 I'd be happy to show it off. My system clobbers most small theaters!
James, I put my money where my mouth is. But I don't buy blindly. I did my homework on the UMC-1 and waited for the dust to settle. And I got a better processor by doing so. I plan to do the same with their higher end model in a few months....and with 50% off!
Cheers,
Rob |
My issue is that the Head of the company "bIg?" dan Laughman releasing a product that he had to know had (and for many still has) multiple issues.
You know Rob how many issues the unit had upon release and dany boy and his folks over there claimed it ran beautifully. Never once has he showed sincere contrition for unleashing a bug riddled product on the public. I feel he has contempt for his customers, as he feels since he has tonewinner products at cheap prices he will always have a market share.
From what I have heard they are still working on the code. This is a joke, and sometimes being the cheapest get you an arrogant, P.T Barunm like owner. Buy what you will it is your money. I wouldn't give a Schmendrick like Laughman a penny of my money. |
You never really answered my question above. Are you "beating" Audessey with an 11 band graphic EQ, with fixed frequencies and no adjustable Q?>>>
Easily. And I'll make it very simple. I can almost always improve on what the the Integra processor can do without even touching the EQ. The poor thing can't even get the basic settings for volume right, almost always overcooking the bass and usually the rears as well. Audessey can't even come close to what an experienced set of ears can do.
Frankly, it's so well known by the installers I've spoken to in NY, that I'm surprised anyone is even thinking that automated EQ gets it right.
I'll make this statement perfectly clear: If you rely 100% on these automated systems you're not hearing everything your system is capable of, regardless of the room.
Rob |
"My friends and I don't "think" we can beat Audessey. We know we can as we've easily improved on it time after time."
You never really answered my question above. Are you "beating" Audessey with an 11 band graphic EQ, with fixed frequencies and no adjustable Q? |
James, do what I did. Wait until the dust settles before buying a processor from anyone. 4-6 months is usually fine. I usually do that with ANY gear of this type, even DSLRs. By doing that I ended up with an incredible processor for 1/4 the cost of my previous one and no issues.
Rob |
"The unit is a fantastic buy to say the least. Emotiva is also poised to release a higher end processor shortly. It has a even better pre-amp section and even more bells and whistles. Buyers of the UMC-1 get 50% off!"
Hopefully "wide ranging" daN doesn't use the public as beta testers this time around. Perhaps some more work on tonewinners part this time around will produce respectable results. After all the issues the LMC-1 one had, to release the UMC the way they did tells you more about the "brain trust" over there than any forum posting ever could. |
Well, I have limited experience with the Anthem 2, especially in setting one up. It's a very good sounding unit.
Most people won't admit that "most" of the automatic EQ systems don't work well. It's a shame because even a 400 dollar Denon receiver can do FAR better than they realize.
I'd also like to point out that one setting does not work across the board anyway. Watching The Expendibles I quickly realized that a quick adjustment in bass and center made for a more enjoyable listening experience. And the remastered Treasure of Sierra Madre benefited from additional tweaks while Avatar liked my standard settings just fine.
Getting back to room EQ via the unit, when my friend does an installation he uses a directional dialogue mic (the sort used on movie sets) to reduce errors.
So back to the original point:
I have found, after a short wait for an update, that the UMC-1 is a match for virtually every processor I've heard. At the very least it's sonically superior to the Onkyo and Marantz units, which cost much more. Early adopters certainly felt burned, but that's history now. The unit is a fantastic buy to say the least. Emotiva is also poised to release a higher end processor shortly. It has a even better pre-amp section and even more bells and whistles. Buyers of the UMC-1 get 50% off!
So I'm pretty happy with Emotiva to say the least!
Rob |
I dont think the Anthem D2V's calibration is at all "amateur hour" after doing 7 mic positions the only thing I found I wanted to adjust was a little bump in center channel level.
I do agree in general that most are a waste of time and some only get you maybe half way there but Anthem is a different league starting first and foremost with its carefully calibrated, matched and high quality microphone.
Up thill then I had got by just fine for over 15 years and maybe 9 different systems in that period.
If your room is good, treated and speakers are well positioned a rat shak SPL meter and your own ear is about all you need. Even a second system I have of Rotel seperates is great with just bass and treble trim for all speakers so 11 bands is a bit overkill IMO but tweekers surely enjoy all that freedom. |
My friends and I don't "think" we can beat Audessey. We know we can as we've easily improved on it time after time. It's not even CLOSE to what we were able to finally achieve after taking real time to dial in the system.
Again, it's EASY to accept that these automated systems get it right. Why think otherwise when it will just lead to a lot of work? I have heard probably more than 50 high end theater systems in homes over the last 5 years and not one used Audessey (or any automated settings) except for the initial set ups.
Oh, and you can't just get the "best speaker position and well thought our room treatments" and then expect to simply tune from there. You have to see-saw back and forth. A simple change to my center channel high freq. curve let to a change in it's previously "perfect" placement.
I love the idea of a automated home theater system. It's certainly a great idea for the masses. But it's amateur hour for serious systems, at least for now. Most users actually employ a mic that costs less than 20 bucks! It's laughable. As I said, you may employ these systems for a head-start, but getting that ideal tune takes a lot of work and time.
Sorry....no fun hearing it, but it's true.
Rob |
"You think you can beat Audessey's algorithms with an 11 band graphic EQ?"
Well to paraphrase Lonnie (Lenny) you can only get so much for $699. We should appreciate the "brain trust" at emo-porium for their honesty. |
Of course setting up any audio system starts with the best speaker placement you can get, and well thought out room treatments. Audessey or any other manual or automatic EQ is assumed to take place after all of the physical acoustics work is done.
"Using the UMC-1 I can customize the levels, EQ and delay on each speaker"
Is this the "tuning" that you are talking about doing? You are using an 11 band graphic EQ and calling that room tuning? You think you can beat Audessey's algorithms with an 11 band graphic EQ? |
I've used the best processors from Denon, Marantz and Onkyo. The Denon and Onkyo units lived in my systems. I've also heard plenty of other units out there. I think they're all pretty good, but generally can't do analogue 2 channel very well. So what? That's what my tube gear is for.
Fast forward to the UMC-1, which not only sounded better on two channel music, but also less harsh and abrasive when watching movies (to my shock). Since I spent money making my dedicated theater room reasonably flat and free of harsh reflections, it's easy not to like Onkyo for example.
Now....as to using the mic and auto calibration on these units: They work "okay" at best and never really get it right. In fact I've NEVER heard an automated EQ system get it right in any room. BTW, my friend owns a shop and does installations. It's his bread & butter to do better than the these automated programs and he's well paid for it. FYI, he's done some work for some pretty heavy music industry clients in custom theaters far beyond mine in scope. Audessey is not part of the job. He's expected to do better.
Using the UMC-1 I can customize the levels, EQ and delay on each speaker; it takes time and careful experimentation to get correct. It also means using many reference sources and day after day of reevaluations. My friends and I are fairly high end users with this gear. It's okay to use the gee-wiz features on these processors, but you're kidding yourself if you think someone can't do better.
Now....using the Denon's gee-wiz system I was able to get closer FASTER to the final level of optimization. That's it's only value, as a STARTING point. If you want to get 40-70% of the system potential then rely entirely on Audessey. There is NO substitute to carefully tuning a system over time, which also includes tedious speaker placement, room treatments system matching. The very nature of the mics typically employed (and their placement) is the first of many problems that make Audessey (and all of it's cousins)a dorm room toy on the same level as sound bars and cheap tube amps for Ipods.
It's only natural to believe that these systems "get it right" since that's so much easier than carefully tweaking your system to an even higher level. If it sounds good to you (as users proclaim) than mission accomplished via Onkyo and all the rest. But it sure didn't sound good enough to me or my friends and quite a few others.
Cheers,
Rob |
Its only opinion tuning unless you are prepared to show detailed graphs from REQ Wizard or something of that nature. Just "liking" something doesnt mean squat. |
Just out of curiosity, Rob when you say that you and your audiophile friends can "tune" better than a well-implemented auto-room EQ ie. Audessey, what exactly are you referring to?
To my knowledge, there aren't many transparent and flexible parametric EQs out there in the high end audio market. You couldn't be talking about using a graphic EQ with hard-coded frequency bands and no adjustable Q. So what type of "tuning" are you describing? |
3 times? Now your just blindly blowing smoke up everyones ass, Emotiva makes a product for X amount and knows it is worth Y and they price it accordingly. To act as if Emotiva is some sort of charitable outfit concerned first with giving away product and profit second is just proof you know nothing about business.
Emotiva is surviving and maybe even thriving because it understands the value of its product pure and simple. There are 2 ways to go out of business, charge too much or charge too little......its obvious they are priced correctly. Its obvious your a fan and thats great but lets not get crazy here. |
Well, James....in this case insane refers to the fact that Emotiva has several items on the market that are priced at a 3rd of what they should be.
The vast majority of those who bash companies like Emotiva, Outlaw and several other direct-to-buyer outfits, reject them with little to no real experience.
Years ago I owned a fairly good Parasound amp. My friend went out an bought an Outlaw amp for 40% less. Though I knew the paper specs were impressive I had faith that my Parasound would be better than the "bargain." It was poor logic as Outlaw's business model was to match or best amps like mine for less by not supporting ads and a dealer network. Of course these days Outlaw gets a good deal of respect. Emotiva is in that same camp, slowly gaining ground and is slowly pushing the boundaries of what some call "mid-fi." For home theater it's not just a good value, it's an insane one!
Rob |
"Other insane items from Emotiva are their CD player which I also recently compared to the Rega Saturn (and others) and their USP-1 preamp, which lost in it's shootout with a Rogue Metis tube pre-amp, but not by much."
It seems many things associated with emo are thought of as insane. I have heard the sauce used at emu-fest also described as insane by "wide ranging" Dan. So insane isn't all it is cracked up to be. |
Well...I have directly compared the Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-2 to some fairly good SS amps. You can do an search and see my comparison between the Emotiva XPA-3 and Rotel 1090, Odyssey Stratos and so on.
I have always wondered how people judged amps as anything without hearing them through several pre-amps.
Other insane items from Emotiva are their CD player which I also recently compared to the Rega Saturn (and others) and their USP-1 preamp, which lost in it's shootout with a Rogue Metis tube pre-amp, but not by much.
Obviously much of this is subjective. What sounds cold to you may sound detailed and accurate to someone else. I don't use the Emotiva gear for music much, but for home theater it's as good as anything I've tried. As I said, I've abandoned SS completely for amp/preamp on music.
Rob |
Not everyone has access to every specific model of every ilk so no I didnt do a direct comparison but have heard it and to me its cold and sterile and doesnt involve me.
I said its good for the money and thats all I am going to say. |
PS: No one should take this too seriously! It's just audio gear and most of us will have totally different stuff in 5 years anyway.
Except for my Merlin speakers, which I may be buried with!
Rob |
Chadnliz, have you listened to the UMC-1 vs. the Onkyo and Marantz models that cost many times the price? If so was it with the same amps?
I'm only asking because I have heard these products. I have no stock in any of them. If the Marantz, Denon or Onkyo were better I'd say so and STILL be happy with the UMC-1 since it does a very good job for my application. So I'll score it simply:
Ease of Use:
All three units are a pain to set up, even if you know how to tune for a room yourself. But any of them can be tuned better by ear if you spend the time. And it's time well spent.
Ease of Use using the Auto-Tune systems:
I felt Denon got it much closer to what I'd finally wanted.
Sound quality:
There is no question in my mind (or any of my friends who own the other models) that the UMC-1 is superior. It's even surprisingly good in two channel audio!
Cosmetics:
The UMC-1 is one of the few units around that isn't covered with a bazillion buttons, looking like a 90's receiver or Bob Carver's nightmare. It's low profile and elegant.
Remote:
The Emotiva all metal remote looks the best, but it's horrible in use. I like the Marantz remote.
As for Lexicon, I'm not a fan. What they did with the Oppo reflected a way of doing business that some installer friends had told me about for years and my impressions based on listening only added to that. Still, the move with the Oppo redress was awful.
Rob |
Hi James
To name expensive products that fall short of less expensive ones is not hard to do. I recently posted a shootout between CD players costing over 3K vs. a Oppo player that cost 300 dollars.
In the world of speakers I've heard models costing over 10K that I didn't find worth 10 dollars, but to name them would be trolling.
You can't "buy" the best systems. They have to be assembled with years of listening experience and an ear for synergy.
Rob |
GHstudio,
You're correct as I do have a dedicated theater room that has been rebuilt to achieve good sonics. But I've had this debate before and I maintain that I can easily do better tuning a system in ANY room than the various systems out there. So can most of my audiophile friends.
For that reason the automated tuning feature, while nifty, was of no interest to me with ANY of the processors I tried. I evaluated them based on sonics.
If someone lacks the skills to tune a system, then I agree 100% to go with a Denon or Onkyo. But using their auto tune feature utterly failed for me and I could always improve on those settings with ease.
All of that aside, the UMC-1 has a superior pre-amp section and the issues have been resolved. Again, I have a system that represents a big investment in money and time. If the UMC-1 was never debugged and sonically poor I'd toss it on the trash.
Rob |
Yes Lexicon rebadged ther new Oppo, thats old news but I talked about the MC8 that was made years ago and by most accounts was a superb product in its day....try to stay on topic.
I noted the Emotiva was good for the money..........what more do you want? Dont be so insecure. |
"It's no fun to consider that a 7000 dollar product sounds no better or inferior to a 1000 dollar product. But it happens all the time in audio."
Could you give us some examples? |
Robbob: Your world is a dedicated, acoustically tuned theater....and it's easy to say that you don't believe in or use room equalization. I would love to have that luxury as would most buyers of processors and amplifiers....but that's not our real world. we have real rooms, we have spouses opinions, we have large picture windows, etc. In an untuned environment, I will take a mid-fi Denon over an Emotiva UMC-1 every time...and yes, I had a UMC-1 for many months. I have heard an audyssey tuned room vs EMOQ because I have an Audyssey Sound Equalizer and I could compare the two....there was no comparison in my lousy to average acoustically family room. I now have a denon 4311 on order with Audyssey xt32 which will allow me to equalize multiple subs as well....and I'll sell the sound equalizer since it's no longer needed with Audyssey XT32.
Yes, the UMC-1 sounded quite good when it worked....I sent it back when the return period ended and Emotiva still had a number of outstanding problems that were driving my wife and I nuts. Perhaps they fixed them since then, but I wasn't going to take a risk of wasting my money on a buggy processor. But keep in mind that I was using it with the Audyssey Sound Equalizer...and I doubt that any UMC-1 user is going to buy a sound equalizer and pro install kit for $3000 to make their $699 processor sound good in THEIR real room.
I believe that an Onkyo, Integra, Denon,.... box with Audyssey multEq and certainly one with the more powerful Audyssey Multeq XT will sound much better in the average room than a UMC-1 using or not using Emoq.
Just for completeness, all my tests were done with an NHT Power 5 amp, James sub and NHT speakers all around (2.9's, ac2,L5's) |
The Anthem D2v is an expensive unit that I have heard several times. Have you compared it's sound to the Emotiva unit? Have you compared a highly regarded amp like the Odyssey Stratos or Parasound Halo to the Emotiva using a good pre-amp?
Your comments remind me of a friend who was telling me that Definitive Technology "Buys" all of their good reviews. He had heard their big tower speakers many times and they were steely, bright and two dimensional. So, after letting him listen to my new Merlin speakers I then connected my mid-fi Def Tech towers to the Manley Stingray amp and his draw dropped. Not that they were a match for a high end Merlin speaker, but he certainly learned why the speakers are well reviewed. The same goes for many components including the Emotiva amps.
Again, the Emotiva processor's issues are fixed. I own it and the latest firmware upgrades repaired all problems.
It's no fun to consider that a 7000 dollar product sounds no better or inferior to a 1000 dollar product. But it happens all the time in audio.
BTW, I don't consider ANY processor high end gear regardless of cost. The Onkyo, Marantz and Anthem units are not worth their cost (based on my experience with them) when you hear what a company like Emotiva is doing. True, I'm a recent tube convert, so a lot of SS gear sounds mid-fi to me these days.
As for Lexicon, I always thought their gear was pseudo-high-end and laughed hysterically when a dealer told me about the tests of their BD-30 blu-ray player. Getting what you pay for takes a lot of hard work. When someone, who spent a ton of cash on a component hears about something with the same functionality for a lot less, they prefer to assume that theirs is better. Understandable, but it's often not the case. I have an expensive tube based CD player next to a 300 dollar Oppo player that illustrates that point very nicely.
Cheers,
Rob |
I never said I hadnt tried the gear, Denon is midfi, but from what I have seen and heard so is Emotiva. The amps sound cold and dry, the Pro has so many issues its not worth going into, look its nice for the price but lets not lose touch with reality.......it aint hifi.
The Anthem D2V (I do own to this day) has a much better pure sounding preamp and internal DACS, yes it costs but the last few percent is what some pay for.
BTW I dont think either is a real 2 channal pre and thats why I use a dedicated Ref 3 for music side....I also own a 2channel Anthem tube unit, Rotel 1068, Lexicon MC8 aswell.
This isnt my first trip around the block.....I have been swimming these waters for years. |
"I'm anxious to see Emotiva's full blown processor coming soon."
Well you should get that based upon how you feel about the UMC-1. I bet that new one will really be something special.
Hope they beta test it before they release it, unlike the UMC-1. |
Kenobi, I had the 40.2 running with Parasound power for a bit. The Onkyo preamp is very old-school Japanese sounding. It lacks depth and weight. My friend runs his theater with the Marantz 8003, which is VASTLY superior in sound to the Onkyo. But even he admits the Emotiva's preamp section is better. BTW, speaker systems involved are Merlin, Magnepan, Focal and Def tech.
Chadnliz, I own Emotiva amps as well as Odyssey, Rotel and the beautiful tube based Manley Stingray II. I've also had Parasound, Rogue and others. I don't comment on gear that I've never heard or heard once at a shop. The gear I discuss has been in my home.
Denon is mid-fi. It's good stuff. But you're being silly if you think a Denon anything will match the Emotiva gear. Using a Rogue Metis preamp the UPA-1 monoblocks held their own against a Odyssey stratos and certainly bested the Rotel 1075. You might also want to read my comparison of how the Emotiva ERC-1 CD player did vs. a far more expensive tube based player. If you don't actually hear this stuff with appropriate associated gear then you have no idea.
Sorry guys. Get back to me when you actually do more than read about these components. Like I said, my system is elaborate. I would not tolerate the UMC-1 if it wasn't excellent. I'm anxious to see Emotiva's full blown processor coming soon.
Rob
Rob |
